rongo Posted March 9, 2018 Posted March 9, 2018 I've been asked to be in the main event again this year at our high school's debate night in the performing arts center (very large auditorium). The undercard debates feature students, and the main event pits two teachers against each other. Last year, I was asked to debate in favor of the death penalty, and this year, I have been asked to debate against requiring licensing or permits for concealed carry. Board discussion here was very helpful in helping me to anticipate good points on the other side, and to fine-tune the best points on my side. I'm hoping the same is true of this question. I am very pro 2nd amendment, but the problem is that concealed carry (as opposed to open carry) isn't something I've given much thought about. On its face, it seems that I've been dealt a very tough hand to argue (and I recognize that that is why they asked me). What are some good points that could be made in favor of not requiring licensing or permitting for concealed carry? Whether you actually believe that or not? Input greatly appreciated!
stemelbow Posted March 9, 2018 Posted March 9, 2018 I thought you already had to have some permit to carry a concealed gun. Are you supposed to argue against taking away that restriction? Good luck.
rongo Posted March 9, 2018 Author Posted March 9, 2018 Not all states. It appears that there has been momentum in several states over the last few years for unlimited concealed carry.
stemelbow Posted March 9, 2018 Posted March 9, 2018 2 minutes ago, rongo said: Not all states. It appears that there has been momentum in several states over the last few years for unlimited concealed carry. I don't see a reasonable way forward in arguing that. I'm sure there's plenty of stuff out there though. Sorry I can't be of help.
CA Steve Posted March 9, 2018 Posted March 9, 2018 (edited) I think you actually have the easier side of that specific debate. Most of the arguments I can think of against allowing concealed carry permits are just expanded gun control arguments. Any attempt by your counterpart to expand the debate to general gun control can be dismissed based on how it actually affects concealed carry. For example a common anti-gun argument is based on pure numbers and accessibility, so I would dig up the percentage of concealed carry permits there are in the state, exclude any of those permits that were help by law enforcement of any kind and then show those remaining permit numbers are not large enough to impact the debate on the huge number of guns in the state/country. I think your opponent is going to have a tough time showing how those who go to the lengths it takes to get such a permit are involved in, or their guns are involved in any sort of crime. Just don't allow you opponent to expand the debate to general gun control and make him/her show how legally concealed guns are any more dangerous than any others. It actually seems like a pretty limited discussion. Given the current national debate on gun control stemming from the Florida school and Las Vegas hotel shootings, why are they not debating something like the right to own assault rifles, large high velocity ammo clips, bump stocks or even multiple gun ownership? That would seem a lot more pertinent to the high school students? Though I suppose faculty there might have some reservations to have such a debate at a high school so soon after the Florida shooting. On edit, I see I have misunderstood what you are actually arguing.. You are actually defending the right to concealed carry without having to get a permit. I still think most of what I said applies. Don't let the other side turn it into a general gun debate and make them show how concealed is more dangerous than not. Edited March 9, 2018 by CA Steve 1
rongo Posted March 9, 2018 Author Posted March 9, 2018 1 minute ago, CA Steve said: I think you actually have the easier side of that specific debate. Most of the arguments I can think of against allowing concealed carry permits are just expanded gun control arguments. Any attempt by your counterpart to expand the debate to general gun control can be dismissed based on how it actually affects concealed carry. For example a common anti-gun argument is based on pure numbers and accessibility, so I would dig up the percentage of concealed carry permits there are in the state, exclude any of those permits that were help by law enforcement of any kind and then show those remaining permit numbers are not large enough to impact the debate on the huge number of guns in the state/country. I think your opponent is going to have a tough time showing how those who go to the lengths it takes to get such a permit are involved in, or their guns are involved in any sort of crime. Just don't allow you opponent to expand the debate to general gun control and make him/her show how legally concealed guns are any more dangerous than any others. It actually seems like a pretty limited discussion. Given the current national debate on gun control stemming from the Florida school and Las Vegas hotel shootings, why are they not debating something like the right to own assault rifles, large high velocity ammo clips, bump stocks or even multiple gun ownership? That would seem a lot more pertinent to the high school students? Though I suppose faculty there might have some reservations to have such a debate at a high school so soon after the Florida shooting. That was a preliminary thought of mine as well. I'm going to predict out in my opening statement that my opponent will repeatedly attempt to pull us into the weeds of gun control at large. Theatrics are welcome in this (we have to submit theme song music as we enter the stage; last year, I had "Rocky" and my opponent had some AC/DC song), and think I will have a referee flag I will toss into the air when attempts are made to devolve into general gun control arguments. I agree that the concealed carry debate is less interesting and pertinent than other facets of gun control. We just debate the positions we're given by the JSA club (this event is a fundraiser for them). Thank you for the thoughts! Very helpful!
Eek! Posted March 9, 2018 Posted March 9, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, rongo said: I have been asked to debate against requiring licensing or permits for concealed carry. Oboy. Imo you shoulda declined... but presumably you're one of those insanely brave souls who doesn't mind fighting the unwinnable fight. Fix bayonets, prepare to charge the approaching line of tanks... 1. Men are inherently endowed with certain inalienable rights, and among these is the right to life. 2. Without the right to defend one's life when so threatened, that right is of academic interest only. 3. Without the means to defend oneself effectively, the right to self-defense is also of academic interest only. 4. Access to the means to defend oneself effectively is therefore a central and pivotal aspect of the inalienable right to life. 5. Inalienable rights by definition transcend legislation, so we might as well make our legislation consistent with them. 6. A totally unforeseen situation can arise far more quickly than the licensing process can remotely begin to deal with, in which case a reasonable person could choose to exercise this inalienable right anyway, and that choice should not be criminalized. Just for the record, imo this argument still loses out to the one articulated by Peter Parker's uncle Ben: "With great power comes great responsibility". And then there's this concept, paraphrasing Joseph Smith: "Teach them correct principles and they can govern themselves." The licensing process hopefully demands the teaching of correct applicable principles to anyone who desires the power and responsibility of carry concealed. Sorry man, I gave it my best shot, but as you can see my heart really isn't in it on your side. Best of luck with that bayonet charge. (Decades ago I carried concealed all the time, without a permit. We lived in a jurisdiction that did not issue concealed carry permits, and I believed the circumstances warranted having a means of effective self defense [I was right]. If we had lived in a jurisdiction where it was possible to obtain a concealed carry permit, I would have done so. When we moved to a jurisdiction where concealed carry permits were issued, I did obtain one.) Edited March 9, 2018 by Eek! 1
bluebell Posted March 9, 2018 Posted March 9, 2018 I'd like to vote for you using "Here comes the Boom" by Nelly for your entry music. As for the debate, I think the only angle that you have is like CA said and focus on making them prove that concealed carry is more dangerous than open carry. 2
rongo Posted March 9, 2018 Author Posted March 9, 2018 (edited) 22 minutes ago, bluebell said: I'd like to vote for you using "Here comes the Boom" by Nelly for your entry music. Noted. I'd love other theme song suggestions as well. Lively, but funny in the context of the topic. Edited March 9, 2018 by rongo
CA Steve Posted March 9, 2018 Posted March 9, 2018 4 minutes ago, rongo said: Noted. I'd love other theme song suggestions as well. Lively, but funny in the context of the topic. How about "I shot the Sheriff" by Bob Marley?
Jeanne Posted March 9, 2018 Posted March 9, 2018 Rongo..you must be blessed with a special talent to do this...let us know what happens..which sides win..I wish I could do this!! I remember in high school the very day that the Viet Nam war ended..my history teacher decided to skip lesson and debate on whether this was good..or bad..I was picked for the bad idea to quit the war..it was fun..but I was just shaking..full of some sort of power or anger I just couldn't explain.
stemelbow Posted March 9, 2018 Posted March 9, 2018 "Rollin' down Rodeo with a shot gun...these people ain't seen a brown skin man since their grandparents bought one". Just up to the first couple of lines.
rongo Posted March 9, 2018 Author Posted March 9, 2018 23 minutes ago, Jeanne said: Rongo..you must be blessed with a special talent to do this...let us know what happens..which sides win..I wish I could do this!! I remember in high school the very day that the Viet Nam war ended..my history teacher decided to skip lesson and debate on whether this was good..or bad..I was picked for the bad idea to quit the war..it was fun..but I was just shaking..full of some sort of power or anger I just couldn't explain. The fun thing with competitive debate is that it doesn't matter which side is "right;" it has to do with making points, arguing evidence, countering and cross-examining, etc. You can even "win" arguing something you don't agree with, but you emphasize strengths and de-emphasize weaknesses. It's just for fun. It's definitely a rush to be on the stage with an audience. 3
Duncan Posted March 9, 2018 Posted March 9, 2018 (edited) Open carry or concealed carry, it's not solving any problems, it has one or two swear words Edited March 9, 2018 by Duncan 2
SamuelTheLamanite Posted March 9, 2018 Posted March 9, 2018 1 hour ago, bluebell said: I'd like to vote for you using "Here comes the Boom" by Nelly for your entry music. As for the debate, I think the only angle that you have is like CA said and focus on making them prove that concealed carry is more dangerous than open carry. Rongo can easily win the debate if he can demonstrate that the "weapons effect" isn't real. Rongo has to be prepared to point flaws in studies like this one https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2352250X17300969. 1
Amulek Posted March 9, 2018 Posted March 9, 2018 3 hours ago, rongo said: What are some good points that could be made in favor of not requiring licensing or permitting for concealed carry? Disparate impact on the poor would probably one of the main arguments I would make. The reality is that low income and high crime go together like Whitney Houston and cover-up foundation. And expensive (either in terms of money or time) licensing / permit requirements place undue burdens on people living in poverty who have the greatest need to protect themselves from criminals (criminals who, by the way, aren't going to bother with getting a license to begin with). 2
rpn Posted March 9, 2018 Posted March 9, 2018 What is different about concealed carry that should require a license? Isn't concealed carry a better way not to scare the others unnecessarily? Licensing makes it easy for someone to slip up and do something illegal that they never meant to when they travel (the guy traveling through NJ that got convicted when he disclosed his weapons at an unrelated traffic stop a couple of years ago). It is just a money making effort (but that money isn't enough to actually cover the full costs of licensing and monitoring): (see how much UT trainers make since UT licenses are accepted in more places). It is simply a way to decrease public's 2d amendment rights, as it doesn't prevent any real problems. No one knows in the moment. (And bad guys carry concealed without any license all the time, and the process is only as good as the law abiding nature of the populace anyway.) 1
Calm Posted March 9, 2018 Posted March 9, 2018 3 hours ago, SamuelTheLamanite said: Rongo can easily win the debate if he can demonstrate that the "weapons effect" isn't real. Rongo has to be prepared to point flaws in studies like this one https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2352250X17300969. Any suggestion of how to do so? 1
Calm Posted March 9, 2018 Posted March 9, 2018 (edited) "Licensing makes it easy for someone to slip up and do something illegal that they never meant to when they travel (the guy traveling through NJ that got convicted when he disclosed his weapons at an unrelated traffic stop a couple of years ago)." Meaning he thought he was covered because he had an different state's license, but wasn't? As far as I understand the debate isn't over licensing at all, but just an additional conceal carry permit. I don't understand how your comment ties into that debate. Just want to understand your point, not debating it. Edited March 9, 2018 by Calm 1
Popular Post rongo Posted March 9, 2018 Author Popular Post Posted March 9, 2018 Update: My son has been invited to be my debate opponent! It's a departure from tradition, but he's actually substituted for teachers in debates and moderation for JSA before. I'm definitely the underdog, now! Many of his friends and my students probably expect him to mop the floor with me (he's our valedictorian). At least we win, either way! 7
cinepro Posted March 10, 2018 Posted March 10, 2018 I think the strongest argument is to just say "what you don't know can't hurt you" (Mic drop). 3
Jeanne Posted March 10, 2018 Posted March 10, 2018 22 minutes ago, cinepro said: I think the strongest argument is to just say "what you don't know can't hurt you" (Mic drop). 1
Peppermint Patty Posted March 10, 2018 Posted March 10, 2018 1 hour ago, cinepro said: I think the strongest argument is to just say "what you don't know can't hurt you" (Mic drop). Rongo, then pick the mic up again and say, "A Panda walks into a Chinese restaurant, orders some take-out and then shoots the waiter in the foot and leaves. The waiter looks up and says what the heck is wrong with you. And the Panda says: "I read that Pandas eat shoots and leaves." (Mic drop again) 2
Peppermint Patty Posted March 10, 2018 Posted March 10, 2018 Rongo, For your grand entrance song I would think about using one of these 3 songs. Star Wars Theme Song: Black Eyed Peas' "Let's Get It Started In Here" Queen's "Another One Bites The Dust"
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