Gray Posted February 16, 2018 Posted February 16, 2018 1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said: CFR that the NRA is a "criminal organization." http://amp.mcclatchydc.com/news/nation-world/national/article195231139.html?__twitter_impression=true
Gray Posted February 16, 2018 Posted February 16, 2018 1 hour ago, bluebell said: Here is my source- norco.org Your hyperlink just links back to the board. 1 hour ago, bluebell said: Not exactly. Trump didn't change any restrictions on who could or couldn't buy guns. He did change a provision put in place by Obama (which never went into effect) that stopped information sharing between agencies that could have blocked some 75,000 people from gun purchases. The law which, outlaws any "who has been adjudicated as a mental defective or who has been committed to a mental institution” from purchasing a gun, is still very much the law. (Not saying I agree with Trump, but for the sake of accuracy). A distinction without a difference, I think 1 hour ago, bluebell said: I can't speak to the assault weapons statement. I haven't done any research on that. While it feels good to say this kind of stuff, it actually makes the problem worse. When democrats are in office and control congress, gun sales go up. When republicans are in office and control congress, they go down (they are in a huge decline right now). When people think that something they want is going to be severely restricted or taken away completely, they stock pile it. When people think that those who disagree with them are unreasonable and reactionary, they become even more entrenched in their own position. Most Americans support more gun control. The only reason we don't have it is politicians beholden to the NRA.
Gray Posted February 16, 2018 Posted February 16, 2018 1 hour ago, mnn727 said: America is not the only country that has mass shooting, Remember Paris last year? Norway a few years back. And we won't even discuss Africa and Asia *regularly*
Gray Posted February 16, 2018 Posted February 16, 2018 1 hour ago, snowflake said: Have you forgotten what happened in Paris? it is impossible to legally get a gun there, yet there was a massacre with assault type firearms. One of the weapons was tracked back to the "fast and furios" operation where the Obama administration sold fully automatic weapons to Mexico...rememeber that? https://www.judicialwatch.org/blog/2016/06/law-enforcement-sources-gun-used-paris-terrorist-attacks-came-phoenix/ These things happen very rarely there. They happen very frequently here.
strappinglad Posted February 16, 2018 Posted February 16, 2018 Repeat after me : " the AR15 is NOT an assault rifle " The AR does not stand for Assault Rifle. 50 years ago there was the Nylon 66 a .22 semi auto varmint rifle with a 10 shot clip. If I had one of those and a dozen clips I could do a lot of damage at a school or theatre. There are semi- automatic rifles and shotguns and most handguns. It is currently illegal to own a FULLY auto rifle like the AK47 or M16 . We ask why the US has mass shootings when other countries with many guns and different laws don't have them. Could it be the culture of guns that is so wide spread in the US? Nearly every movie that comes out of Hollywood ( a bastion of the anti-gun folks ) is filled with gun violence and solutions to personal and societal problems shown by resorting to a gun. Video games are not usually built around peaceful farming situations. The Romans had bread and circuses . We have our own favorite pass-times . If a Roman citizen went off his nut and ran around swinging a sword or spear , he would shortly run into a centurion . If the heroic security guard at the school had been equipped with a vest and a glock , could he saved more? Debatable I suppose. 1
strappinglad Posted February 16, 2018 Posted February 16, 2018 (edited) It is my understanding that the Obama/Trump law pertained to restricting senior citizens, who were judged mentally unable to handle their own finances, from purchasing a fire arm. Probably sensible , but I don't recall the last mass shooting carried out by 75 year olds. Now driving a car into stores or crowds of people is more their style. Edited February 16, 2018 by strappinglad 1
bluebell Posted February 16, 2018 Posted February 16, 2018 41 minutes ago, Gray said: The problem is we have a lot of red states with almost no restrictions on gun sales. A lot of the guns used in crime in Illinois are purchased in Indiana. We need stronger federal restrictions. Stronger federal restrictions would probably help some. Can we really divide this into a 'red state/blue state' issue though? Only 7 states in the country outlaw assault rifles. That means 9 blue states allow assault rifles. Not all blue states require a background check to purchase a gun either while some red states do. Out of the 7 states that don't have any restrictions on gun owners, 1 is a blue state. The state with the most restrictions on gun owners is a red state. Again, it's this kind of "us vs them, me the good guy vs you the bad guy", mentality that is making so it incredibly difficult to pass any kind of gun reform. 2
bluebell Posted February 16, 2018 Posted February 16, 2018 (edited) 51 minutes ago, Gray said: Your hyperlink just links back to the board. A distinction without a difference, I think Most Americans support more gun control. The only reason we don't have it is politicians beholden to the NRA. Weird. Let me try again. http://www.norc.org/PDFs/GSS Reports/GSS_Trends in Gun Ownership_US_1972-2014.pdf It's a distinction with a difference. Saying that Trump made it so mentally ill people can buy guns is false. They are still not allowed to buy guns. Perpetuating these kind of 'loose facts that serve my purpose' (which both sides are constantly doing) is part of the reason we are in this mess. We need less spin. And yes, 51% of Americans support gun control. I'm not sure what the margin of error was on that report though so I don't know if that number alone means that we would have more gun control right now if not for the NRA. Edited February 16, 2018 by bluebell 2
MiserereNobis Posted February 16, 2018 Posted February 16, 2018 3 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: Short of hiring full-time, armed security, place a critical mass in each school of faculty/staff who have concealed-carry permits. How would you get this critical mass? Would it be a job requirement for teachers to bring a gun to school? I've been teaching for over 10 years and I've yet to hear a teacher in my school say they wish they could bring their gun to school. I'm sure there are some and I just haven't heard it, but I seriously doubt there are enough to create the critical mass you describe. Would this also alter teacher dress codes so that the gun could be concealed? I'm not up to speed on how guns are concealed beyond inside a jacket. I hear this solution all the time and it just doesn't seem practical to me. There is a HUGE training difference between our police officer (who clearly has a gun on his belt) and a civilian with a conceal permit. 1
mnn727 Posted February 16, 2018 Posted February 16, 2018 1 hour ago, The Nehor said: That thing being arming people with weapons with little to no hunting or self-defense utility but are explicitly designed for killing lots of people very fast and making sure we do not track if known dangerous people are getting them. Your average American is scary. Gee, another person that know little to nothing about guns. A hunting rifle and an AK - 47 have the exact same capabilities, one just looks scary 1
The Nehor Posted February 16, 2018 Posted February 16, 2018 16 minutes ago, mnn727 said: Gee, another person that know little to nothing about guns. A hunting rifle and an AK - 47 have the exact same capabilities, one just looks scary Yeah, that hunting rifle is creepy. I think it is watching me..........
The Nehor Posted February 16, 2018 Posted February 16, 2018 1 hour ago, strappinglad said: Repeat after me : " the AR15 is NOT an assault rifle " The AR does not stand for Assault Rifle. 50 years ago there was the Nylon 66 a .22 semi auto varmint rifle with a 10 shot clip. If I had one of those and a dozen clips I could do a lot of damage at a school or theatre. There are semi- automatic rifles and shotguns and most handguns. It is currently illegal to own a FULLY auto rifle like the AK47 or M16 . We ask why the US has mass shootings when other countries with many guns and different laws don't have them. Could it be the culture of guns that is so wide spread in the US? Nearly every movie that comes out of Hollywood ( a bastion of the anti-gun folks ) is filled with gun violence and solutions to personal and societal problems shown by resorting to a gun. Video games are not usually built around peaceful farming situations. The Romans had bread and circuses . We have our own favorite pass-times . If a Roman citizen went off his nut and ran around swinging a sword or spear , he would shortly run into a centurion . If the heroic security guard at the school had been equipped with a vest and a glock , could he saved more? Debatable I suppose. The difference is a mass swording takes a lot longer and generally has fewer casualties. With the new transgender rules Your Roman might be able to get into the school wearing a skirt though. May want to look at that rule too.
Scott Lloyd Posted February 16, 2018 Posted February 16, 2018 (edited) 55 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said: How would you get this critical mass? Would it be a job requirement for teachers to bring a gun to school? I'm not saying it would be a job requirement. It might be a consideration in staffing, like hiring a certain number of math or foreign language teachers to meet demand. Perhaps it would be something that would enhance one's job prospects, like having computer literacy skills, for example. And I don't feel qualified to say how the critical mass would be determined. I'm confident someone more knowledgeable than I could, though. Quote I've been teaching for over 10 years and I've yet to hear a teacher in my school say they wish they could bring their gun to school. I'm sure there are some and I just haven't heard it, but I seriously doubt there are enough to create the critical mass you describe. It's not the sort of thing one would expect to come up in casual conversations. But I have to think there considerably could be. It just seems like common sense. I would like to see someone who understands such things figure it out rather than have the proposal just discarded a priori as impossible. Quote Would this also alter teacher dress codes so that the gun could be concealed? I'm not up to speed on how guns are concealed beyond inside a jacket. I have a good friend, a retired federal law enforcement officer, who by permit carries a concealed weapon. And I'm acquainted with someone else who just obtained a permit and acquired a handgun that is concealed. Depending on the size and nature of the weapon, it is not as difficult as you suppose. And no, I don't see that the dress code would have to be altered. Quote I hear this solution all the time and it just doesn't seem practical to me. There is a HUGE training difference between our police officer (who clearly has a gun on his belt) and a civilian with a conceal permit. I'm saying that it seems to me that with a number of individuals being armed, it is bound to make a difference as opposed to having an entire building full of students, teachers and staff being sitting ducks for a deranged killer. I keep coming back to how I might feel were I to have children in a school where such a thing occurred. I would want to know there were a substantial number of armed individuals at the school who could conceivably protect my kids. Edited February 16, 2018 by Scott Lloyd
Danzo Posted February 16, 2018 Posted February 16, 2018 5 hours ago, Gray said: America is the only country that regularly has mass shootings. It's the guns. Not really
carbon dioxide Posted February 17, 2018 Posted February 17, 2018 9 hours ago, Mark Beesley said: The Second Amendment was supposed to help make the nation secure; instead it has made going to school dangeroous. The 2nd Amendment is not making schools dangerous. A few idiots are making it dangerous. 2
carbon dioxide Posted February 17, 2018 Posted February 17, 2018 7 hours ago, bluebell said: If the states tried to write a constitution today they would NEVER accomplish it. No one is will to compromise, few care to seek the guidance of God, and everyone believes they hold the moral high ground. The country would implode while everyone blamed everyone else for not agreeing with them. Most importantly, few of our leaders are remotely as educated and wise as the Founders. A new constitution written by people today would not remotely compare to what we have now.
carbon dioxide Posted February 17, 2018 Posted February 17, 2018 4 hours ago, The Nehor said: Australia used to have a problem with lots of shootings. They instituted strict gun control laws and rigidly enforced them and shootings are now very rare. Just a thunk. Thankfully I do not live there but the USA. Better to live free and be a little in danger than be safe and be more of a slave to the government.
carbon dioxide Posted February 17, 2018 Posted February 17, 2018 6 hours ago, Gray said: America is the only country that regularly has mass shootings. It's the guns. False. Guns have been around for a long time. Real mass shootings (like a dozen people shot and not just 4) is more recent. Plenty of gun access back in the 80s but no examples of a dozen kids getting shot in school. What has changed is the culture, 24 hour news and the internet. That is creating this.
carbon dioxide Posted February 17, 2018 Posted February 17, 2018 2 hours ago, Gray said: *regularly* On a statistical basis, one is about as likely to be killed in a school mass shooting as they are to be killed by lightning.
carbon dioxide Posted February 17, 2018 Posted February 17, 2018 3 hours ago, snowflake said: Have you forgotten what happened in Paris? it is impossible to legally get a gun there, yet there was a massacre with assault type firearms. One of the weapons was tracked back to the "fast and furios" operation where the Obama administration sold fully automatic weapons to Mexico...rememeber that? https://www.judicialwatch.org/blog/2016/06/law-enforcement-sources-gun-used-paris-terrorist-attacks-came-phoenix/ People can't protect themselves in Europe against sexual assault. They tell women to keep arms distance between a themselves and a potential attacker. Now a nice handgun will work a lot better than that.
carbon dioxide Posted February 17, 2018 Posted February 17, 2018 2 hours ago, Gray said: Most Americans support more gun control. The only reason we don't have it is politicians beholden to the NRA. Most Americans don't even know the purpose of the 2nd Amendment. They think it was put there so that people have the right to hunt Bambi. Most Americans don't even own a gun. They know little about guns and just parrot whatever gun control lie that is told to them. They talk about the evil AR-15 and if only we get rid of those guns, everything will be ok. False. Shooters will simple use another gun to accomplish the same exact result. 32 dead, 17 injured in Virginia Tech by 2 handguns.
The Nehor Posted February 17, 2018 Posted February 17, 2018 9 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said: Thankfully I do not live there but the USA. Better to live free and be a little in danger than be safe and be more of a slave to the government. Not having guns = slavery? I have to admit a part of me almost hopes the government becomes despotic so I can watch these freedom militia types get slaughtered and chopped into soylent green and see exactly how big a help their gun supply is in keeping their freedom.
The Nehor Posted February 17, 2018 Posted February 17, 2018 (edited) 5 hours ago, carbon dioxide said: People can't protect themselves in Europe against sexual assault. They tell women to keep arms distance between a themselves and a potential attacker. Now a nice handgun will work a lot better than that. Hahaha, do you think an attacker in a rape will wait while his victim pulls out her gun and gets it ready. I have done these drills. It doesn’t work as a defense even if you are expecting it and immediately grab for the gun. Edited February 17, 2018 by The Nehor 1
carbon dioxide Posted February 17, 2018 Posted February 17, 2018 1 minute ago, The Nehor said: Not having guns = slavery? I have to admit a part of me almost hopes the government becomes despotic so I can watch these freedom militia types get slaughtered and chopped into soylent green and see exactly how big a help their gun supply is in keeping their freedom. I think it would be a much larger fight than that. I would be interesting to watch. Better to live free for a few minutes than be a slave for decades. Slavery comes in different forms. To be entirely dependent on the government for your protection is a form of slavery. 1
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