An Inspired Constitution? (Needs a rewrite.j

[Scott Lloyd]

20 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

It’s the classic causation vs correlation logical fallacy. All we have right now is correlation: the two events happened at the same time. Without further evidence, it is a glaring logical fallacy to try to turn it into causation. 

Hmm. Causation vs. correlation. Kind of like the notion that evidence that Russians meddled in the elections means that Trump must have stolen the election by colluding with those nasty Russians. No credible evidence of that, but it doesn’t stop politicians from insisting that millions of dollars in resources into an investigation that, after over a year, has gone essentially nowhere. 

If partisans can do that, perhaps I and others can be pardoned for wondering if the FBI’s inexplicable failure to act to prevent the shooting in Florida might be attributable to the bureau’s resources being stretched too thin, due in part to this collusion witch hunt. 

Have you viewed the Tucker Carlson program yet? I doubt that you would have had time before posting your reply. 

Edited February 18, 2018 by Scott Lloyd

[MiserereNobis]

32 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Hmm. Causation vs. correlation. Kind of like the notion that evidence that Russians meddled in the elections means that Trump must have stolen the election by colluding with those nasty Russians.

Red herring. This has nothing to do with the FBI and Florida  

Your partisan thinking is leading you into logical fallacies. 

[Scott Lloyd]

40 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

Red herring. This has nothing to do with the FBI and Florida  

Your partisan thinking is leading you into logical fallacies. 

It’s no more a post hoc fallacy than the Trump-Russian collusion witch hunt. 

And I don’t believe I’m any more partisan than you are. 

[Duncan]

39 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

Red herring. This has nothing to do with the FBI and Florida  

Your partisan thinking is leading you into logical fallacies. 

I hope Scott Lloyd isn't blaming the Florida shooting on the FBI, if so then the shooter should go free, he pulled the trigger, not the FBI

[carbon dioxide]

On 2/16/2018 at 9:49 PM, Gray said:

Great, let's ban handguns too.

Nope.  I rather live in a country with some risk with guns than live in a European style country where the people are not allowed to defend themselves.  If you have watched what as happened in Europe over the last few years with the increase of violence including sexual assault with the migration coming in, I really find i have little sympathy for the people there.  They made a choice to give up their guns and now they are sitting ducks to all these assaults.  The sheep have given up their rights to protect themselves from the wolves so let the wolves have their fun.  If Americans give up their 2nd Amendment rights, the population deserves whatever come to it. Frankly I think the constitution should be thrown down and replaced with an hard dictatorship because the population would not deserve to be free.

Edited February 18, 2018 by carbon dioxide

[Robert F. Smith]

15 hours ago, Anijen said:

Although I agree with everything you wrote I would like to add that as  gun owner I have been extensively trained, I have trained my own children fire arm safety, AND every gun owner I know has done the same.  I disagree with Nehor about the extent of classes and updating training Nehor thinks we need.

Gun safety is easy to learn and can be learned in two 8 hour classes or a couple of hunting trips with your mom and dad, or in the Boy Scouts... However to become an excellent marksman does require consistent training over and over.

Nehor is correct.  Here in Utah, for example, one can obtain a concealed carry permit with  only 4 hours of classroom, and no firing on a range.  One would have thought that a state should at least require some actual shooting experience.  This does not even consider open carry rules in many states, which require nothing at all (not even a permit).  Most people are astonishingly ignorant about weapons of any kind, carelessly pointing muzzles toward others without realizing it, and thinking that their weapons are not loaded, when that is not always the case.  Gun safety is a learned habit.  It must be ingrained, preferably in a systematically, organized form (in the military or law enforcement, for example).  It needs to become second nature.  In the military and law enforcement, regular practice is required.  It is a shame that the NRA does not insist on adequate training (and retraining), and that they are not in favor of enhanced background checks.

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Plus I think the English trying to disarm the Colonists were more of the catalyst for the Second Amendment than William and Mary (but it was a factor).

You are mistaken.  The whole Bill of Rights (not just the 2nd amendment) took as its deliberate precursor the rights enumerated in the Parliamentary law passed only one century earlier -- part of their "Glorious Revolution."  This was a vivid presence in the minds of the American colonial elite.  Students are never taught that simple fact today.

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The Second Amendment meant for the people not just the militia.

You missed the historical point, which was that the militia was the people en masse (at least all males 16 and over).  That was the law.  Today, of course, we don't usually think in those terms.

Edited February 18, 2018 by Robert F. Smith

[Gray]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2018/02/16/when-will-they-love-their-kids-more-than-their-guns-an-australian-priest-asks-americans/?utm_term=.4fc5782957e3

 

Quote

‘When will they love their kids more than their guns,’ an Australian priest asks Americans

 

[Gray]

47 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said:

Nope.  I rather live in a country with some risk with guns than live in a European style country where the people are not allowed to defend themselves.  If you have watched what as happened in Europe over the last few years with the increase of violence including sexual assault with the migration coming in, I really find i have little sympathy for the people there.  They made a choice to give up their guns and now they are sitting ducks to all these assaults.  The sheep have given up their rights to protect themselves from the wolves so let the wolves have their fun.  If Americans give up their 2nd Amendment rights, the population deserves whatever come to it. Frankly I think the constitution should be thrown down and replaced with an hard dictatorship because the population would not deserve to be free.

They're much safer over there. You're living in a fantasy world - a dangerous one.

[Gray]

10 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

Never have seen a gun walk down anywhere and started shooting.  Not once.  CFR that a gun shot anyone in a mass shooting.  Does not exist - just to save you some time.

CFR that there was ever a mass shooting without a gun.

[MiserereNobis]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

It’s no more a post hoc fallacy than the Trump-Russian collusion witch hunt. 

And I don’t believe I’m any more partisan than you are. 

Bringing up the Trump-Russia investigation is by definition a red herring. It’s not the issue here and it has no bearing on what we are talking about. 

And CFR that I have been partisan on this thread. 

[Amulek]

15 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Here in Utah, for example, one can obtain a concealed carry permit with  only 4 hours of classroom, and no firing on a range.  One would have thought that a state should at least require some actual shooting experience.

For all practical purposes, the state doesn't need to require actual shooting experience. It's a self-selection thing. The overwhelming majority of people who seek out and obtain concealed carry permits are those who already know how to shoot already. And the class just ends up being a giant waste of time - kind of like one of those driver safety classes you might be forced to take after catching one to many speeding tickets. 

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

It’s a question of finite resources system-wide. 

And it’s not just I who is wondering about it:

 

I have not seen any strong correlation between reality and things Tucker Carlson says.

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Hmm. Causation vs. correlation. Kind of like the notion that evidence that Russians meddled in the elections means that Trump must have stolen the election by colluding with those nasty Russians. No credible evidence of that, but it doesn’t stop politicians from insisting that millions of dollars in resources into an investigation that, after over a year, has gone essentially nowhere. 

If partisans can do that, perhaps I and others can be pardoned for wondering if the FBI’s inexplicable failure to act to prevent the shooting in Florida might be attributable to the bureau’s resources being stretched too thin, due in part to this collusion witch hunt. 

Have you viewed the Tucker Carlson program yet? I doubt that you would have had time before posting your reply. 

So you think that foreign nations taking measures to influence our elections is not worth investigating. Are you a Russian bot or something?

I have no idea if Trump colluded or not. I could see him doing it without even realizing how wrong it would be but that does not mean he did. Whether he did or not we do need to track Russian efforts to interfere in our political processes and mitigate them and relatiate against Russia as necessary. Trump is too busy lying about the results of the investigation to actually take action so Congress may have to step up and do it for him.

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, carbon dioxide said:

Nope.  I rather live in a country with some risk with guns than live in a European style country where the people are not allowed to defend themselves.  If you have watched what as happened in Europe over the last few years with the increase of violence including sexual assault with the migration coming in, I really find i have little sympathy for the people there.  They made a choice to give up their guns and now they are sitting ducks to all these assaults.  The sheep have given up their rights to protect themselves from the wolves so let the wolves have their fun.  If Americans give up their 2nd Amendment rights, the population deserves whatever come to it. Frankly I think the constitution should be thrown down and replaced with an hard dictatorship because the population would not deserve to be free.

The Europeans are suffering fewer mass shootings and that makes them sitting ducks?

[The Nehor]

14 minutes ago, Amulek said:

For all practical purposes, the state doesn't need to require actual shooting experience. It's a self-selection thing. The overwhelming majority of people who seek out and obtain concealed carry permits are those who already know how to shoot already. And the class just ends up being a giant waste of time - kind of like one of those driver safety classes you might be forced to take after catching one to many speeding tickets. 

That is a guess. There is no data to back it up.

[Amulek]

7 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

That is a guess. There is no data to back it up.

Meh. There's no data to contradict it either. I'm fine with calling it just my opinion though. 

However, I'll say this with certainty: I have never, in all my life, known anybody with a concealed carry permit who didn't already know how to shoot. 

Are there people who have never held a gun in their life signing up for concealed carry classes? I suppose it's possible, but I've never known or even heard of anybody who has personally known someone where this was the case. 

[The Nehor]

11 minutes ago, Amulek said:

Meh. There's no data to contradict it either. I'm fine with calling it just my opinion though. 

However, I'll say this with certainty: I have never, in all my life, known anybody with a concealed carry permit who didn't already know how to shoot. 

Are there people who have never held a gun in their life signing up for concealed carry classes? I suppose it's possible, but I've never known or even heard of anybody who has personally known someone where this was the case. 

I know of a guy who got his first gun and a week later tried to get a carry permit. Just my personal opinion but that guy should not have a gun at all let alone carry it in public. I am most saying his type is typical but I am not convinced they are super rare either.

[Robert F. Smith]

52 minutes ago, Amulek said:

For all practical purposes, the state doesn't need to require actual shooting experience. It's a self-selection thing. The overwhelming majority of people who seek out and obtain concealed carry permits are those who already know how to shoot already. And the class just ends up being a giant waste of time - kind of like one of those driver safety classes you might be forced to take after catching one to many speeding tickets. 

I don't trust "self-selection."  Though there are lots of hunters in Utah, and some former military, I don't think that "the overwhelming majority" getting CC permits actually have proper training.  The four-hour class is just inadequate.  I doesn't focus enough on the law, and it isn't practical enough.  That may make it "a giant waste of time," but the answer is better classes, not exclusion of classes.  The two weeks I spent on the range in USMC boot camp was not particularly fun, but it was very valuable, and I came to see the wisdom of constant retraining with weapons during the years I was a Marine.  Moreover, before we even got to the range, we had already spent weeks in intense study of the operation of the weapon we would be shooting.  We drilled with it every day.  We came to know it as a friend.

The same applies to law enforcement, in which one does not graduate from the plastic "red gun" to the real thing until one has mastered the basics.  And that takes awhile.