snowflake Posted February 16, 2018 Posted February 16, 2018 6 minutes ago, The Nehor said: Australia used to have a problem with lots of shootings. They instituted strict gun control laws rigidly enforced them and shootings are now very rare. I thought they basically outlawed guns no? That is one way to institute gun laws, is to just abolish them.
snowflake Posted February 16, 2018 Posted February 16, 2018 2 minutes ago, The Nehor said: Unless they are trained shooters that is unlikely to help. It is unlikely there will be enough time between the beginning of an attack and the bulk of the casualties occurring for the teacher to get the weapon, remove the safety, aim, and fire in time to do much good. Even that assumes they have the iron discipline to react methodically despite people dying around them and can do it in a way the shooter will not see and react to and that the armed teacher or teachers are close enough to react. Then I give them an equal chance of hitting the shooter and creating another victim. Ok, you don't like teachers defending their classrooms, fine. Any other suggestions to prevent this violence?
bluebell Posted February 16, 2018 Posted February 16, 2018 57 minutes ago, Gray said: It hasn't gone consistently up or down. It's pretty similar to what it was in the 70s. Of course the big difference is access to assault weapons. And of course easy access to weapons for unstable persons with violent tendencies. The actual number of guns in the US has gone steadily up. And we have the most guns per capita of any nation - it's not even close. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country https://www.theonion.com/no-way-to-prevent-this-says-only-nation-where-this-r-1819576527 It was 50% in the late 70's and early 80's and then went down into the low 30% in the late 90s and 2000s. In 2014 31% of households owned a gun. I agree that assault weapons are a big problem, but I also think it's naive to believe that the number of guns itself is causing this. Gun laws have not significantly changed in the last 100+ years, but the number of kids intentionally killed in school shootings has skyrocketed. The number of households with guns has gone down at the same time that the number of mass shootings has gone up. I support a change in gun regulations and increased gun control, but I think we have to acknowledge that something else in this country is seriously broken. We are creating a generation of males that is increasingly turning to guns to solve their problems who also have little regard for human life. We need to figure out why. 4
Scott Lloyd Posted February 16, 2018 Posted February 16, 2018 (edited) 32 minutes ago, The Nehor said: Unless they are trained shooters that is unlikely to help. Obtaining a concealed-carry permit involves undergoing training. Quote It is unlikely there will be enough time between the beginning of an attack and the bulk of the casualties occurring for the teacher to get the weapon, remove the safety, aim, and fire in time to do much good. Knowing that there are a sufficient number of faculty and staff who are armed might be enough to discourage some would-be perps from the get-go. And "concealed-carry" implies that the individual has the firearm on his/her person, so there being time "for the teacher to get the weapon" would not be an issue in such an instance. Quote Even that assumes they have the iron discipline to react methodically despite people dying around them and can do it in a way the shooter will not see and react to and that the armed teacher or teachers are close enough to react. Then I give them an equal chance of hitting the shooter and creating another victim. That's why I used the term "critical mass." Taking out the perp early on in the episode eliminates the untold potential for additional victims. Edited February 16, 2018 by Scott Lloyd 1
Anijen Posted February 16, 2018 Posted February 16, 2018 Prohibition of all guns, caps, sharp objects! Yeah, that's the ticket. 11 minutes ago, The Nehor said: Australia used to have a problem with lots of shootings. They instituted strict gun control laws rigidly enforced them and shootings are now very rare. Or we could ship all our mentally deranged, cray crays to Australia that will be a win win. 1
Scott Lloyd Posted February 16, 2018 Posted February 16, 2018 1 minute ago, Anijen said: Prohibition of all guns, caps, sharp objects! Yeah, that's the ticket. Or we could ship all our mentally deranged, cray crays to Australia that will be a win win. That's what England tried to do early on. Australia was established as a penal colony. Many of today's Australians are descended from those convicts. 1
The Nehor Posted February 16, 2018 Posted February 16, 2018 11 minutes ago, snowflake said: I thought they basically outlawed guns no? That is one way to institute gun laws, is to just abolish them. Guns are not outlawed but generally if you have one legally you have a reason for having it. Farmers can have a shotgun. Security guards can have a pistol, etc. 1
The Nehor Posted February 16, 2018 Posted February 16, 2018 11 minutes ago, snowflake said: Ok, you don't like teachers defending their classrooms, fine. Any other suggestions to prevent this violence? I don’t dislike it. I just do not think it will Work unless you have a John Wayne present. My solution is to outlaw the kinds of weapons you need to have to pull off a mass shooting. Yes, it will still be possible for criminals to acquire illegal weapons but messed up kids like this one generally do not have Eastern European arms dealer connections. 1
Gray Posted February 16, 2018 Posted February 16, 2018 9 minutes ago, bluebell said: It was 50% in the late 70's and early 80's and then went down into the low 30% in the late 90s and 2000s. In 2014 31% of households owned a gun. According to my source it has been vacillating from low to upper 40s from the 70s onward. It's in the lower 40s today. 9 minutes ago, bluebell said: I agree that assault weapons are a big problem, but I also think it's naive to believe that the number of guns itself is causing this. Gun laws have not significantly changed in the last 100+ years, but the number of kids intentionally killed in school shootings has skyrocketed. The number of households with guns has gone down at the same time that the number of mass shootings has gone up. Gun laws have significantly changed in the last 10 years, becoming more lax for assault weapons. Just last year Trump removed restrictions on mentally ill people buying guns. The results have been predictable. 9 minutes ago, bluebell said: I support a change in gun regulations and increased gun control, but I think we have to acknowledge that something else in this country is seriously broken. We are creating a generation of males that is increasingly turning to guns to solve their problems who also have little regard for human life. We need to figure out why. What's broken about us is our politicians are beholden to the NRA, a criminal organization.
snowflake Posted February 16, 2018 Posted February 16, 2018 9 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: Knowing that there are a sufficient number of faculty and staff who are armed might be enough to discourage some would-be perps from the get-go. This is exactly why there are never any mass shootings at: Gun shows, gun shops, poice stations, shooting ranges or redneck roundups. They almost always happen in gun free zones.....which is weird, don't the perps know that it is illegal to bring a gun to a school?!?! 3
snowflake Posted February 16, 2018 Posted February 16, 2018 2 minutes ago, Gray said: According to my source it has been vacillating from low to upper 40s from the 70s onward. It's in the lower 40s today. Gun laws have significantly changed in the last 10 years, becoming more lax for assault weapons. Just last year Trump removed restrictions on mentally ill people buying guns. The results have been predictable. What's broken about us is our politicians are beholden to the NRA, a criminal organization. Gray, what would you suggest we do to stop this violence?
Gray Posted February 16, 2018 Posted February 16, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, snowflake said: How would you suggest we stop these school shootings? Start by banning assault rifles. Restore restrictions on buying guns for individuals who are at risk for this behavior. Gun control saves lives. Edited February 16, 2018 by Gray
Anijen Posted February 16, 2018 Posted February 16, 2018 (edited) 22 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: That's what England tried to do early on. Australia was established as a penal colony. Many of today's Australians are descended from those convicts. Well i was just about to delete my comments, humor (bad humor here) is not my forte. Since im too late i will apologize for offending anyone. I think if anything we can learn from this sad occurrence is that guns kill (all is in agreement on that), but the bigger problem shown in this case is how much warning people had in this case. I mean he threatened it twice, mentioned it on Facebook, the FBI was aware (did nothing probably because it wasn't the political party they wanted to protect), over 30 times the police showed up at his house.... We need to fix the societal decay first. For example Switzerland has a higher level of guns per capita than the US but one of the lowest homicide by gun in the world. Lets learn from them what are they doing differently? Edited February 16, 2018 by Anijen 1
The Nehor Posted February 16, 2018 Posted February 16, 2018 11 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: Obtaining a concealed-carry permit involves undergoing training. Knowing that there are a sufficient number of faculty and staff who are armed might be enough to discourage some would-be perps from the get-go. That's why I used the term "critical mass." Taking out the perp early on in the episode eliminates the potential for additional victims. And that concealed carry training is about as effective in a combat situation as taking a one night self-defense class.....useless. To learn to fight or shoot effectively you need extensive scenario-based training with a LOT of repetition. Even then based on military statistics a lot of people panic and screw up. These shooters do not usually plan to live. The deterrent effect would be minimal. Some give up afterwards but the mentality they are usually in does not worry about that kind of thing. I can see it making active shooters target teachers first if that helps. Unless the perp screws up there is no time to intervene. You probably have less than five seconds from finding out there is a shooter to people dying and five seconds is generous.
Gray Posted February 16, 2018 Posted February 16, 2018 (edited) 7 minutes ago, snowflake said: This is exactly why there are never any mass shootings at: Gun shows, gun shops, poice stations, shooting ranges or redneck roundups. They almost always happen in gun free zones.....which is weird, don't the perps know that it is illegal to bring a gun to a school?!?! https://www.cnn.com/2013/01/19/us/north-carolina-gun-show-shooting/index.html Countries with strict gun controls have less gun violence and less accidental injury/death. Edited February 16, 2018 by Gray
The Nehor Posted February 16, 2018 Posted February 16, 2018 7 minutes ago, Gray said: What's broken about us is our politicians are beholden to the NRA, a criminal organization. We freeze the assets of organizations supporting foreign terrorism. Why not local. Fun fact: After the big Tasmania shooting in Australia there was general support for stricter gun laws. The NRA went over to fight the new laws. This backfired as it was seen as Americans meddling where they are not wanted and helped pass the laws. So perhaps the NRA did a little good. 2
bluebell Posted February 16, 2018 Posted February 16, 2018 13 minutes ago, The Nehor said: Australia used to have a problem with lots of shootings. They instituted strict gun control laws and rigidly enforced them and shootings are now very rare. Just a thunk. Two places in this country that have the strictest gun control 'laws' are also the two places that routinely have mass shootings (schools and military bases). The counties/districts that have the strictest gun control laws in the country also have some of the highest rates of gun violence in the country. While gun control has worked in other countries (especially those more isolated from blackmarket gun sources than the U.S. is), I don't know if we can argue that the United States would have similar results if they did the same thing. For example, the United States has harsh illegal drug laws and penalties (stricter than Australia) while we also have some of the highest rates of illegal drug use in the world, also higher than Australia. Strict control = less use is not a given. History has proven that how US citizens react to something is different than how the citizens of other countries react to it. I do agree though that we need to do something to keep guns out of the hands of these broken people until we can figure out how to stop creating so many of them. 3
Scott Lloyd Posted February 16, 2018 Posted February 16, 2018 12 minutes ago, Gray said: What's broken about us is our politicians are beholden to the NRA, a criminal organization. CFR that the NRA is a "criminal organization." 1
The Nehor Posted February 16, 2018 Posted February 16, 2018 6 minutes ago, Anijen said: Well i was just about to delete my comments, humor (bad humor here) is not my forte. Since im too late i will apologize for offending anyone. I think if anything we can learn from this sad occurrence is that guns kill (all is in agreement on that), but the bigger problem shown in this case is how much warning people had in this case. I mean he threatened it twice, mentioned it on Facebook, the FBI was aware (did nothing probably because it wasn't the political party they wanted to protect), over 30 times the police showed up at his house.... We need to fix the societal decay first. For example Switzerland has a higher level of guns per capita than the US but one of the lowest homicide by gun in the world. Lets learn from them what are they doing differently? The administration is claiming it is a mental health problem after making sure the mentally ill can have assault rifles. Thanks Donny! The problem is most of these cases have warning signs that people insist should have prevented but what is anyone supposed to do with them? We cannot legally take away their firearms. We can not commit them to an institution against their will. Do we give them free therapy they will probably not go to? 1
The Nehor Posted February 16, 2018 Posted February 16, 2018 2 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: CFR that the NRA is a "criminal organization." I would say they are more terrorist supporting rather than criminal.
Anijen Posted February 16, 2018 Posted February 16, 2018 4 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: CFR that the NRA is a "criminal organization." FBI. Wait.
The Nehor Posted February 16, 2018 Posted February 16, 2018 4 minutes ago, Anijen said: FBI. Wait. Yeah, funneling foreign money into a campaign. Not exactly a red blooded American thing to do.
Scott Lloyd Posted February 16, 2018 Posted February 16, 2018 (edited) 26 minutes ago, The Nehor said: And that concealed carry training is about as effective in a combat situation as taking a one night self-defense class.....useless. So beef up the mandatory training, then. Quote To learn to fight or shoot effectively you need extensive scenario-based training with a LOT of repetition. Even then based on military statistics a lot of people panic and screw up. Be that as it may, I have to think a critical mass of armed faculty/staff onsite boosts the odds against the perp and curbs the chance for additional injuries/fatalities after the shootings begin. I'm talking about mitigation here. Quote These shooters do not usually plan to live. The deterrent effect would be minimal. Some give up afterwards but the mentality they are usually in does not worry about that kind of thing. I can see it making active shooters target teachers first if that helps. So I guess Snowflake's point is irrelevant then: Quote This is exactly why there are never any mass shootings at: Gun shows, gun shops, police stations, shooting ranges or redneck roundups. They almost always happen in gun free zones.....which is weird, don't the perps know that it is illegal to bring a gun to a school?!?! Back to you: Quote Unless the perp screws up there is no time to intervene. You probably have less than five seconds from finding out there is a shooter to people dying and five seconds is generous. But I have to think the opportunity for prolonged carnage is lessened proportionately by the number of armed individuals onsite who could take defensive action once the initial shootings have occurred. Again, the idea here is mitigation, if not outright deterrence. I don't want my or anyone else's kids to be sitting ducks for some deranged individual just because nobody on the premises is capable of defending them. Edited February 16, 2018 by Scott Lloyd
bluebell Posted February 16, 2018 Posted February 16, 2018 11 minutes ago, Gray said: According to my source it has been vacillating from low to upper 40s from the 70s onward. It's in the lower 40s today. Here is my source- norco.org Quote Gun laws have significantly changed in the last 10 years, becoming more lax for assault weapons. Just last year Trump removed restrictions on mentally ill people buying guns. The results have been predictable. Not exactly. Trump didn't change any restrictions on who could or couldn't buy guns. He did change a provision put in place by Obama (which never went into effect) that stopped information sharing between agencies that could have blocked some 75,000 people from gun purchases. The law which, outlaws any "who has been adjudicated as a mental defective or who has been committed to a mental institution” from purchasing a gun, is still very much the law. (Not saying I agree with Trump, but for the sake of accuracy). I can't speak to the assault weapons statement. I haven't done any research on that. Quote What's broken about us is our politicians are beholden to the NRA, a criminal organization. While it feels good to say this kind of stuff, it actually makes the problem worse. When democrats are in office and control congress, gun sales go up. When republicans are in office and control congress, they go down (they are in a huge decline right now). When people think that something they want is going to be severely restricted or taken away completely, they stock pile it. When people think that those who disagree with them are unreasonable and reactionary, they become even more entrenched in their own position. 1
Scott Lloyd Posted February 16, 2018 Posted February 16, 2018 13 minutes ago, The Nehor said: I would say they [NRA] are more terrorist supporting rather than criminal. More histrionics.
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