Here We Go Again-Holocaust Victim Baptisms

[Bernard Gui]

 

Thank you Rabbi Greenebaum, but should the Church try to find out who keeps doing this and tell them to knock it off? I would not be surprised to find out they’re doing it to embarrass the Church.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/apnewsbreak-mormons-perform-baptisms-holocaust-victims-141749437.html

Quote

Ryan Cragun, an associate professor of sociology who studies Mormonism at the University of Tampa, said Mormons are striving to baptize everyone who has ever lived to help get non-Mormons out of "spirit prison" in the afterlife and receive exaltation.

One reason for performing the ritual on Holocaust victims is that their names are easy to find in government records, which creates an efficient way to quickly baptize more people, said Cragun, who was raised Mormon but no longer belongs to the church.

The baptisms of public figures are likely based on two factors, he added. First, people naturally think about celebrities more often because they see them on TV and in movies or hear them on the radio. Secondly, Mormons are similar to other social groups in that they like to claim famous people as their own.

I’m not sure those are accurate comments, by the way, Professor Cragun.

[Robert F. Smith]

10 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Thank you Rabbi Greenebaum, but should the Church try to find out who keeps doing this and tell them to knock it off? I would not be surprised to find out they’re doing it to embarrass the Church.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/apnewsbreak-mormons-perform-baptisms-holocaust-victims-141749437.html

I’m not sure those are accurate comments, by the way, Professor Cragun.

Well, if he believed that Mormonism actually taught that sort of schlock, no wonder he left the Church.  Either that or he left for an entirely other reason.

[Bobbieaware]

23 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

 

Thank you Rabbi Greenebaum, but should the Church try to find out who keeps doing this and tell them to knock it off? I would not be surprised to find out they’re doing it to embarrass the Church.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/apnewsbreak-mormons-perform-baptisms-holocaust-victims-141749437.html

I’m not sure those are accurate comments, by the way, Professor Cragun.

In consideration of the fact that there are six million Holocaust victims and a total of only 20 of those victims (isn’t that what the article says, 20 victims?) have been baptized since the very stringent 1995 Church restrictions on baptizing Holocaust victims were put in place, isn’t this article even less than a tempest in a teapot? The knowledgeable rabbi quoted in the article even says he’s observed the Church really is doing a great job, working with great diligence to keep its promise to not baptize any Holocaust victims. So why this mountain-out-of-a-molehill article that states a total of merely 20 names somehow managed to squeak through the very strictly administered preventative process in 22 years? That’s less than one proxy baptism per year!!! Am I missing something or is it just a slow news day.. I’m open to correction.

Edited December 22, 2017 by Bobbieaware

[smac97]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

Thank you Rabbi Greenebaum, but should the Church try to find out who keeps doing this and tell them to knock it off? I would not be surprised to find out they’re doing it to embarrass the Church.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/apnewsbreak-mormons-perform-baptisms-holocaust-victims-141749437.html

I’m not sure those are accurate comments, by the way, Professor Cragun.

Prof. Cragun's responses aside, I was impressed by the overall tone and content of the article.  Kudos to Brady McCombs!

[bluebell]

It would be really nice if reporters could actually report the act correctly.  We don't baptize dead people.  

[strappinglad]

Is it just the Jewish people we don't do the work for? There were quite a few other groups that fell under the regime that carried out the holocaust.

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, strappinglad said:

Is it just the Jewish people we don't do the work for? There were quite a few other groups that fell under the regime that carried out the holocaust.

Are there other religious groups?  I don't remember there being any but maybe i'm forgetting one.

[Jane_Doe]

20 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Are there other religious groups?  I don't remember there being any but maybe i'm forgetting one.

Holocaust also targets homosexuals, JW, and any other excuse of a dissenter. 

[strappinglad]

I remember that many non-Jewish Poles were killed.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/non-jewish-victims-of-the-holocaust

Edited December 22, 2017 by strappinglad

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Jane_Doe said:

Holocaust also targets homosexuals, JW, and any other excuse of a dissenter. 

Gypsies/Roma/Romani 

https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005219

"While exact figures or percentages cannot be ascertained, historians estimate that the Germans and their allies killed around 25 percent of all European Roma. Of slightly less than one million Roma believed to have been living in Europe before the war, the Germans and their Axis partners killed up to 220,000."

Edited December 22, 2017 by Calm

[kiwi57]

Ah, I see Helen Radkey is trying to get some attention again.

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Jane_Doe said:

Holocaust also targets homosexuals, JW, and any other excuse of a dissenter. 

That’s right, I forgot about the JW. 

[kiwi57]

9 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

 

Thank you Rabbi Greenebaum, but should the Church try to find out who keeps doing this and tell them to knock it off? I would not be surprised to find out they’re doing it to embarrass the Church.

Yes, I don't doubt that she is.

9 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

https://www.yahoo.com/news/apnewsbreak-mormons-perform-baptisms-holocaust-victims-141749437.html

I’m not sure those are accurate comments, by the way, Professor Cragun.

Another fellow who can leave the Church but can't leave it alone.

[jkwilliams]

18 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

 

Thank you Rabbi Greenebaum, but should the Church try to find out who keeps doing this and tell them to knock it off? I would not be surprised to find out they’re doing it to embarrass the Church.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/apnewsbreak-mormons-perform-baptisms-holocaust-victims-141749437.html

I’m not sure those are accurate comments, by the way, Professor Cragun.

Certainly Professor Cragun's remarks about motivation apply to some church members. Many years ago, when I was still active in the church, I stumbled across a celebrity name when I was doing some digging into my family's genealogy online trying to find ancestors who needed temple ordinances done. Curiosity got the best of me, and I started searching for random celebrities in the church's database. Some celebrities, such as Elvis Presley and Karen Carpenter, had received ordinances by proxy many, many times, in temples literally around the world. Often, ordinances were done almost immediately after a year had passed since the celebrity's death. I ended up compiling a spreadsheet of dead celebrity ordinances and considered writing something for publication, but I decided against it. I did make contact with a man who had done Elvis's temple work, and I asked him if he realized he was violating church policy by submitting ordinances for someone who was not a relative. He said he was a relative, that he and Elvis were "seventh cousins." He assured me that he looked forward to meeting Elvis in the next life, certain that the King would be grateful for what he had done.

So, yes, at least some church members seem eager to claim celebrities as their own. I'm glad the church is taking steps to prevent this kind of stuff.

[jkwilliams]

10 hours ago, kiwi57 said:

Yes, I don't doubt that she is.

Another fellow who can leave the Church but can't leave it alone.

Given that it's his job to study Mormonism, it would seem rather silly to ask him to "leave it alone." 

From his faculty bio at the University of Tampa:

Quote

 

Courses Taught: Sociology of Religion 
Statistics for the Social Sciences 
Social Stratification 
Sociological Theory 
Introduction to Sociology

Career Specialties: Ryan Cragun specializes in the sociological study of religion, focusing on Mormonism, the nonreligious and secularization.

 

 

[pogi]

I think the main antagonist in this story that no one is talking about is Helen Radkey.  The excommunicated member who gains entrance into blocked portions of the database by illegally using a Mormon friend's password (it is a federal criminal offense to use someone else's password, even with their consent) to gain access to private and protected information.  She wastes countless hours of her time researching proxy baptisms and leaks this private information to the press to try and shame the church, and to be seen by the world as the protagonist - the protector of the dead.  What a joke!

[bluebell]

3 hours ago, pogi said:

I think the main antagonist in this story that no one is talking about is Helen Radkey.  The excommunicated member who gains entrance into blocked portions of the database by illegally using a Mormon friend's password (it is a federal criminal offense to use someone else's password, even with their consent) to gain access to private and protected information.  She wastes countless hours of her time researching proxy baptisms and leaks this private information to the press to try and shame the church, and to be seen by the world as the protagonist - the protector of the dead.  What a joke!

She's a sad woman, and she'll regret it eventually (and I don't mean that in a 'she'll get what she deserves!' kind of way).  She really is worthy of our prayers.

[jkwilliams]

22 minutes ago, bluebell said:

She's a sad woman, and she'll regret it eventually (and I don't mean that in a 'she'll get what she deserves!' kind of way).  She really is worthy of our prayers.

How can we be certain of her motivations?   Maybe she believes passionately that she’s doing the right thing. 

[pogi]

1 minute ago, jkwilliams said:

 How can we be certain of her motivations? Maybe she believes passionately that she’s doing the right thing. 

We know what her motivations are because she explained them in the article.  

Quote

The suburban Salt Lake City woman has dedicated countless hours to researching proxy baptisms because she believes people's religious preferences should be respected even after they're dead.

She was a Mormon.  She knows that no dead people are being forced to change religions.  Also, by doing this, she is violating our religious privacy in very illegal ways.  Breaking the law is not the "right thing to do."

 

 

 

[bluebell]

37 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

How can we be certain of her motivations?   Maybe she believes passionately that she’s doing the right thing. 

I have no doubt that she does. 

[kiwi57]

10 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

Given that it's his job to study Mormonism, it would seem rather silly to ask him to "leave it alone." 

From his faculty bio at the University of Tampa:

 

And of course, he didn't choose his career specialties, they were chosen for him. Right?

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, jkwilliams said:

How can we be certain of her motivations?   Maybe she believes passionately that she’s doing the right thing. 

Then that is even more sad and she probably needs some kind of therapy.

[kiwi57]

1 hour ago, jkwilliams said:

How can we be certain of her motivations?   Maybe she believes passionately that she’s doing the right thing. 

So passionately that she thinks the end justifies the means. So the question is, if she's prepared to dishonestly and illegally use someone else's password, what else is she willing to do? Salt the mine, perhaps?

[jkwilliams]

40 minutes ago, kiwi57 said:

And of course, he didn't choose his career specialties, they were chosen for him. Right?

So, his career choice makes him an anti-Mormon? Or did he choose his career because he was already an anti-Mormon?

I still don’t quite understand what he said that was so wrong/offensive. But then I am, after all, one of those people who can’t leave the church alone. 

[jkwilliams]

11 minutes ago, kiwi57 said:

So passionately that she thinks the end justifies the means. So the question is, if she's prepared to dishonestly and illegally use someone else's password, what else is she willing to do? Salt the mine, perhaps?

I don’t know anything about this woman. I just thought it unfair to assign evil intent to her.