Exiled Posted December 21, 2017 Posted December 21, 2017 9 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: I was just trying to be cute, in my own ham-handed way. Sorry. No apologies necessary of course. I was trying to play along. Anyway, the search for aliens on earth is interesting, however, it seems like our tax dollars should go somewhere else.
CA Steve Posted December 21, 2017 Posted December 21, 2017 19 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: The ramifications are simple: It would eliminate us as inefficient and illogical. Unless, of course, Isaac Asimov and Robert Silverberg were correct in their application of the three laws of robotics in "Bicentennial Man." In that yarn, the AI became self-aware and wanted to be human. Robin Williams played him in the movie brilliantly. Interesting that, like some of our gods, mankind even tries to anthropomorphize a future AI. I believe that initially an AI would not have any emotions and not have a "desire" to become human, unless, of course, self awareness has to include emotions, but even then we do not know if becoming human would be appealing to an AI. I still doubt that it would, since a cursory review of humankind does not present us very well. 1
cinepro Posted December 21, 2017 Posted December 21, 2017 (edited) People on Other Worlds Quote Age-old questions again come to the surface: Is our earth the only world in all of space that has intelligent inhabitants? Or is there life on other worlds—perhaps intelligent beings like ourselves or maybe even more intelligent than ourselves? Might they visit us? --- One of the most exciting things for many Latter-day Saint students to learn is that the Church, through revelation from God (who—have you ever thought of it in this light?—is our contact from outer space), teaches some of the answers to these questions. And we’ve had the answers for quite some time. LDS New Era, 1971 Edited December 21, 2017 by cinepro
Robert F. Smith Posted December 21, 2017 Author Posted December 21, 2017 21 minutes ago, CA Steve said: Interesting that, like some of our gods, mankind even tries to anthropomorphize a future AI. I believe that initially an AI would not have any emotions and not have a "desire" to become human, unless, of course, self awareness has to include emotions, but even then we do not know if becoming human would be appealing to an AI. I still doubt that it would, since a cursory review of humankind does not present us very well. I agree. Asimov & Silverberg were far too hopeful and naive. Apotheosis is the only effective way of dealing with human flaws and AI "perfection." We will need some way out when (shortly) supercomputers become self-aware and begin taking over.
Robert F. Smith Posted December 21, 2017 Author Posted December 21, 2017 34 minutes ago, Exiled said: No apologies necessary of course. I was trying to play along. Anyway, the search for aliens on earth is interesting, however, it seems like our tax dollars should go somewhere else. It doesn't really matter, since the Russians and others will continue spending plenty of money on that research anyhow.
Exiled Posted December 21, 2017 Posted December 21, 2017 31 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: It doesn't really matter, since the Russians and others will continue spending plenty of money on that research anyhow. Maybe it was russian aliens who threw the election to trump? I think that may be a new line of inquiry. 1
snowflake Posted December 21, 2017 Posted December 21, 2017 18 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: Last Sunday the New York Times published an article on a Pentagon program investigating UFOs (funded via Senator Harry Reid, and operated by his billionaire friend Robert Bigelow). Several other articles have followed. My question is "Where do UFOs and Aliens fit into your religious beliefs?" Or "Where do they fit into your atheist beliefs?" Video of part of 2004 encounter by 12 pilots and assistants: Helene Cooper, Ralph Blumentthal, and Leslie Kean, “Glowing Auras and ‘Black Money’: The Pentagon’s Mysterious U.F.O. Program,” NYTimes, Dec 16, 2017, online at https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/16/us/politics/pentagon-program-ufo-harry-reid.html . Ralph Blementhal, “On the Trail of a Secret Pentagon U.F.O. Program,” NYTimes, Dec 18, 2017, online at https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/18/insider/secret-pentagon-ufo-program.html . “That Time The U.S. Navy Had A Run-In With A UFO,” Popular Mechanics, Dec 19, 2017,, online at http://start.att.net/news/read/category/news/article/popular_mechanics-that_time_the_us_navy_had_a_runin_with_a_ufo-rhearst . Aaron Mak, “How Conspiracy Theorists on Reddit Are Reacting to That New York Times UFO Story,” Slate, Dec 19, 2017, online at http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2017/12/19/how_conspiracy_theorists_on_reddit_4chan_are_reacting_to_the_new_york_times.html . Great topic Robert, I love the supernatural, weird, fringe topics that people get all weird and think you are nuts if you bring up! I personally believe that the UFO's, aliens and the like are either "fallen angels" or "demons", and I think that the Bible supports this take. The fact that the universe is so spread out and so massive, to me it seems highly unlikely that these things could travel between stars. Here is a link to the best bible based talk I've found, and one of my favorite bible teachers Chuck Missler. I know it is long but it is sooo good!
CV75 Posted December 21, 2017 Posted December 21, 2017 19 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: Last Sunday the New York Times published an article on a Pentagon program investigating UFOs (funded via Senator Harry Reid, and operated by his billionaire friend Robert Bigelow). Several other articles have followed. My question is "Where do UFOs and Aliens fit into your religious beliefs?" Whatever they are, I would put them in the category of "signs of the times." Other than that, I don't see the science, pseudoscience or government involvement as a religious issue.
pogi Posted December 21, 2017 Posted December 21, 2017 1 hour ago, snowflake said: I personally believe that the UFO's, aliens and the like are either "fallen angels" or "demons", and I think that the Bible supports this take. That is a different take I have never heard before. Do you believe that demons are spirits? How, and why, could they be flying space craft? 1
strappinglad Posted December 21, 2017 Posted December 21, 2017 If you listen to the interview with the man who headed the project , he was quite specific about the abilities of the craft that have been recorded and said that neither the US or any other nation that he knew of had any aircraft or for that matter biological entities that could perform the maneuvers seen or withstand the G forces required to do them. Personally I have no problem with extraterrestrials observing the place. I am NOT happy with the idea of being part of a scientific expedition from " elsewhere" that needs to ' probe ' and tag us and do cattle surgery etc. Whether or not God would protect us from an advanced group from outside earth, He hasn't interfered with destruction of peoples by outside tribes in most of history , so I don't hold out much hope for intervention if we were to be attacked by " others " . For those interested, may I recommend a book and film called "Out of the Blue " As a side note, the 22 million dollars spent by the Gov't on this project over 5 years is less than the cost of one jet and has done way less damage than that one jet could do.
snowflake Posted December 21, 2017 Posted December 21, 2017 1 minute ago, pogi said: That is a different take I have never heard before. Do you believe that demons are spirits? How, and why, could they be flying space craft? Well, the Christian take is different than the LDS in several key things let me just quickly point out. The LDS God is "trapped" in a body of flesh and bone and "trapped" inside the space-time domain and his species is human. The Christian God is outside the space time domain and humans are his creation. Also LDS believe that angels are human without bodies. The bible does not agree with this, and demons are angels that have sinned. God and his angels exist outside of our time-space dimension (length X width X height X time), they exist in more than our physical dimension. They can enter and disappear in our space time domain at will. UFO's are physically tangible, they can be tracked by radar, they appear and disappear, they go faster than any of our aircraft and make right angle turns, they go faster than the speed of sound without sonic booms......things that defy today's physics. So I believe they are "real" but can leave and enter our space-time dimension at will (just like angels, demons and God, Jesus). Luke 24: 36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. 37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit. 38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
CA Steve Posted December 21, 2017 Posted December 21, 2017 (edited) 15 minutes ago, strappinglad said: If you listen to the interview with the man who headed the project , he was quite specific about the abilities of the craft that have been recorded and said that neither the US or any other nation that he knew of had any aircraft or for that matter biological entities that could perform the maneuvers seen or withstand the G forces required to do them. This is why I suspect that if it were actually an alien aircraft, no organic life form would be on it. I do not believe it was an alien aircraft but if it were, it was probably controlled by an on-board electronic computer. 15 minutes ago, strappinglad said: Whether or not God would protect us from an advanced group from outside earth, He hasn't interfered with destruction of peoples by outside tribes in most of history , so I don't hold out much hope for intervention if we were to be attacked by " others " . Not only that, but it also could be a sign that this advanced race actually has figured out which is the correct God, if any, since it appears He has blessed them enough to figure out extremely long distance space travel. A god, who may favor that race over our own. Since the question of this OP is the religious ramifications of aliens showing up, I think right from the start of such event, a lot of people should be asking themselves if they are following the right deity. For all we know we might be just similar to those pre-humans that existed before the time of Adam and this new race showing up here is here to plant their own true Adam and Eve. (Right after they wipe us out with what will look to later generations as an asteroid hit.) Edited December 21, 2017 by CA Steve
Robert F. Smith Posted December 21, 2017 Author Posted December 21, 2017 2 hours ago, snowflake said: ............................................................ The fact that the universe is so spread out and so massive, to me it seems highly unlikely that these things could travel between stars. .................... Based on our current understanding of methods of space travel, you would be right. But we do not know much about the universe and natural law. An advanced civilization would presumably have methods which are far beyond our understanding. 1
Bobbieaware Posted December 21, 2017 Posted December 21, 2017 (edited) 39 minutes ago, snowflake said: Well, the Christian take is different than the LDS in several key things let me just quickly point out. The LDS God is "trapped" in a body of flesh and bone and "trapped" inside the space-time domain and his species is human. The Christian God is outside the space time domain and humans are his creation. Also LDS believe that angels are human without bodies. The bible does not agree with this, and demons are angels that have sinned. God and his angels exist outside of our time-space dimension (length X width X height X time), they exist in more than our physical dimension. They can enter and disappear in our space time domain at will. UFO's are physically tangible, they can be tracked by radar, they appear and disappear, they go faster than any of our aircraft and make right angle turns, they go faster than the speed of sound without sonic booms......things that defy today's physics. So I believe they are "real" but can leave and enter our space-time dimension at will (just like angels, demons and God, Jesus). Luke 24: 36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. 37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit. 38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? Evangelicals never cease to amaze me with their blindness to the obvious and inability to see the theological forest for the erroneous trees. But before I elaborate my point in a subsequent post, I have two questions for you: 1) Do you believe the Son of God has a resurrected body of flesh and bone, a body that could be handled and felt by his mortal disciples? 2) If the answer to question 1 is yes, do you believe the embodied Son of God is “trapped,” as you say, in his resurrected body of flesh and bone? Edited December 21, 2017 by Bobbieaware
pogi Posted December 21, 2017 Posted December 21, 2017 (edited) 50 minutes ago, snowflake said: Well, the Christian take is different than the LDS in several key things let me just quickly point out. The LDS God is "trapped" in a body of flesh and bone and "trapped" inside the space-time domain and his species is human. The Christian God is outside the space time domain and humans are his creation. Also LDS believe that angels are human without bodies. The bible does not agree with this, and demons are angels that have sinned. God and his angels exist outside of our time-space dimension (length X width X height X time), they exist in more than our physical dimension. They can enter and disappear in our space time domain at will. UFO's are physically tangible, they can be tracked by radar, they appear and disappear, they go faster than any of our aircraft and make right angle turns, they go faster than the speed of sound without sonic booms......things that defy today's physics. So I believe they are "real" but can leave and enter our space-time dimension at will (just like angels, demons and God, Jesus). Luke 24: 36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. 37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit. 38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? A couple things, "angels" in Mormon doctrine, are resurrected beings with bodies of flesh. Spirits are pre-mortal men without bodies. However, these terms are sometimes used interchangeably. Demons, in Mormon thought, are the 1/3 host of heaven who rebelled with Lucifer and were cast out of heaven, and down to earth (Revelations 12:3-9). We believe that Lucifer and his "angels" (demons) reside here on earth, according to Revelations. They don't need space craft, nor could they tangibly use them as spirits, nor could they leave earth if they wanted too - they are banished to earth. Also, in regards to Mormon doctrine on the relation of God with space/time, it is all theoretical. No revelations on the matter. In regard to Jesus appearing to different people in the Bible, on several different occasions, I don't recall him arriving and departing in a space craft...just sayin' Also, if your body is a prison that you are "trapped" in, I know a quick solution to that problem... Suddenly, it doesn't feel like such a trap, any more does it! Edited December 21, 2017 by pogi 1
The Nehor Posted December 21, 2017 Posted December 21, 2017 1 hour ago, cinepro said: People on Other Worlds LDS New Era, 1971 Yeah, knowing people are out there might be cool but I have seen no indications of visits.
CA Steve Posted December 21, 2017 Posted December 21, 2017 Though now probably wouldn't be a good time for aliens to show up here in the US, given the current administration's policies. After we got done with the wall we would have to build the bubble. 2
pogi Posted December 21, 2017 Posted December 21, 2017 21 minutes ago, The Nehor said: Yeah, knowing people are out there might be cool but I have seen no indications of visits. You mean, except for the first vision and some 24 accounts of other heavenly (space) visitors to Joseph Smith and others, right? Granted, they were all originally from earth (except for maybe God the Father), and may not technically be considered "aliens", but perhaps 'intergalactic ex-pats', or something... http://www.ldsliving.com/24-Angels-Who-Visited-Joseph-Smith/s/79521 1
pogi Posted December 21, 2017 Posted December 21, 2017 15 minutes ago, CA Steve said: Though now probably wouldn't be a good time for aliens to show up here in the US, given the current administration's policies. After we got done with the wall we would have to build the bubble. Unfortunately, he has already used up the term "little rocket man" and will have to come up with some new insult to tweet.
Duncan Posted December 22, 2017 Posted December 22, 2017 What George Costanza said about Pig men is what I think about Aliens
Eek! Posted December 22, 2017 Posted December 22, 2017 7 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: Based on our current understanding of methods of space travel, you would be right. But we do not know much about the universe and natural law. An advanced civilization would presumably have methods which are far beyond our understanding. Yup, we're still pretty new to this whole advanced physics/high tech thing. We didn't even begin controlled powered flight until little over a century ago. Our present understanding is that the speed of light is unattainable by any physical object because the mass of an object - even a tiny electron - would approach infinity as that object approaches the speed of light. However it is NOT that the quantity of material in the electron approaches infinity; rather, it is its inertial mass that approaches infinity. A civilization which has figured out and mastered the Grand Unified Theory, and thus understands the relationships between the electromagnetic force, weak and strong forces, and the gravitational force, might understand how to manipulate and/or cancel out inertial mass. Of course they'd also need sufficiently advanced technology to actually accomplish that. If inertial mass can be manipulated and/or cancelled, some amazing things become theoretically possible. The speed of light would no longer be the speed limit. And those incredible UFO right-angle turns and instantaneous accelerations would become possible. F = MA, and therefore A = F/M. What happens to A (acceleration) for a given applied F (force) as M (inertial mass) goes to zero? A (acceleration) would approach infinity(!). Give our best minds several thousand years to work on it and I bet they come up with something. 1
Robert F. Smith Posted December 22, 2017 Author Posted December 22, 2017 9 minutes ago, Eek! said: Yup, we're still pretty new to this whole advanced physics/high tech thing. We didn't even begin controlled powered flight until little over a century ago. Our present understanding is that the speed of light is unattainable by any physical object because the mass of an object - even a tiny electron - would approach infinity as that object approaches the speed of light. However it is NOT that the quantity of material in the electron approaches infinity; rather, it is its inertial mass that approaches infinity. A civilization which has figured out and mastered the Grand Unified Theory, and thus understands the relationships between the electromagnetic force, weak and strong forces, and the gravitational force, might understand how to manipulate and/or cancel out inertial mass. Of course they'd also need sufficiently advanced technology to actually accomplish that. If inertial mass can be manipulated and/or cancelled, some amazing things become theoretically possible. The speed of light would no longer be the speed limit. And those incredible UFO right-angle turns and instantaneous accelerations would become possible. F = MA, and therefore A = F/M. What happens to A (acceleration) for a given applied F (force) as M (inertial mass) goes to zero? A (acceleration) would approach infinity(!). Give our best minds several thousand years to work on it and I bet they come up with something. Yes, and we already have instant quantum communication -- faster than light speed -- and no one knows how that is possible. 3
Eek! Posted December 22, 2017 Posted December 22, 2017 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: Yes, and we already have instant quantum communication -- faster than light speed -- and no one knows how that is possible. Excellent (and spooky) point!! Edited December 22, 2017 by Eek! 1
cdowis Posted December 22, 2017 Posted December 22, 2017 I suggest there is something else going on. In the Last Days, there will be displays in the heavens from Satan. (don't have the reference at hand)
The Nehor Posted December 22, 2017 Posted December 22, 2017 8 hours ago, pogi said: You mean, except for the first vision and some 24 accounts of other heavenly (space) visitors to Joseph Smith and others, right? Granted, they were all originally from earth (except for maybe God the Father), and may not technically be considered "aliens", but perhaps 'intergalactic ex-pats', or something... http://www.ldsliving.com/24-Angels-Who-Visited-Joseph-Smith/s/79521 If you want to count them as alien visitations you can. I do not. Seems rude to call my Father an alien. 1
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