Where do UFOs and Aliens fit in your religious beliefs?

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Eek! said:

Yup, we're still pretty new to this whole advanced physics/high tech thing.  We didn't even begin controlled powered flight until little over a century ago. 

Our present understanding is that the speed of light is unattainable by any physical object because the mass of an object - even a tiny electron - would approach infinity as that object approaches the speed of light.  However it is NOT that the quantity of material in the electron approaches infinity; rather, it is its inertial mass that approaches infinity. 

A civilization which has figured out and mastered the Grand Unified Theory, and thus understands the relationships between the electromagnetic force, weak and strong forces, and the gravitational force, might understand how to manipulate and/or cancel out inertial mass.   Of course they'd also need sufficiently advanced technology to actually accomplish that.

If inertial mass can be manipulated and/or cancelled, some amazing things become theoretically possible.  The speed of light would no longer be the speed limit.  And those incredible UFO right-angle turns and instantaneous accelerations would become possible.   F = MA, and therefore A = F/M.  What happens to A (acceleration) for a given applied F (force) as M (inertial mass) goes to zero?  A (acceleration) would approach infinity(!).  

Give our best minds several thousand years to work on it and I bet they come up with something. 

 

We have one interesting theory on how to make it work:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcubierre_drive

The problem is it requires the existence of exotic particles we have not yet found and may not exist, has incredibly high power requirements, and would destroy anything it carries amongst other issues.

More a thought experiment and model then a feasible device but fun to read about.

[mfbukowski]

On 12/20/2017 at 9:21 PM, Eek! said:

Very interesting that the US Navy is releasing transcripts and testimony and actual video footage of a UFO encounter.   I cannot recall an official government source releasing this kind of information within my lifetime, especially not without an accompanying debunking "explanation".   I would not be surprised if the intention here is to start preparing people for a big reveal. 

I have no problem with God having other sheep that live on other planets, some of whom may well be far more technologically and/or spiritually advanced than we are. 

But what if they are not LDS?

 

[snowflake]

15 hours ago, Bobbieaware said:

Evangelicals never cease to amaze me with their blindness to the obvious and inability to see the theological forest for the erroneous trees. But before I elaborate my point in a subsequent post, I have two questions for you:

1) Do you believe the Son of God has a resurrected body of flesh and bone, a body that could be handled and felt by his mortal disciples?

2) If the answer to question 1 is yes, do you believe the embodied Son of God is “trapped,” as you say, in his resurrected body of flesh and bone?

My point is that the LDS God did not create the universe, he "organized it out of existing matter", he lives in the universe on a planet called Kolob and has a body of flesh and bone.

This is a distinct difference from the Christian God who created the universe out of nothing, he exists outside of the universe yet is able to be everywhere at once and entered into our time-space dimension as a human, Yeshua. God, the angels and direct creations of God seem to exist in another dimension that are able to come into our space-time dimension at will. The LDS God is "trapped" in the same time space dimension as us humans, that is my point. 

[cdowis]

53 minutes ago, snowflake said:

My point is that the LDS God did not create the universe, he "organized it out of existing matter", he lives in the universe on a planet called Kolob and has a body of flesh and bone.

This is a distinct difference from the Christian God who created the universe out of nothing, he exists outside of the univers

Please show us where that is taught in the Bible.  I know of no scripture which mentions ex nihlo creation, but let's see what you got.

[snowflake]

1 hour ago, cdowis said:

Please show us where that is taught in the Bible.  I know of no scripture which mentions ex nihlo creation, but let's see what you got.

Genesis 1: 1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.  Time, space and matter all created in verse 1.

John 1

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

² The same was in the beginning with God.

³ All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Not only do the Christians understand this the vast majority of cosmologists believe in some form of "big bang".

[cdowis]

32 minutes ago, snowflake said:

Genesis 1: 1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.  Time, space and matter all created in verse 1.

No ex nihlo mentioned here.  "Create" == orgainze existing matter.  An artist "creates" a masterpiece, by taking existing materials -- canvas, pigments, brushes to create == he organizes existing materials for his creation.

It says "heaven and earth", nothing about creating matter.

John 1

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

² The same was in the beginning with God.

³ All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Thou art straining at a gnat.  Very philosophical, using the wisdom of the philosophers and the modern Pharasees.

Matter was not made, it already existed.  All things, including the earth, was "that which was made" but not the matter from which it consists.  This has been clarified in modern revelation.

Not only do the Christians understand this the vast majority of cosmologists believe in some form of "big bang".

So  you agree with them that the universe is 15 billion years old, the earth was created 10 billion years later, that life slowly evolved over several millions of years. 

Am I missing something?

 

Edited December 22, 2017 by cdowis

[Bobbieaware]

5 hours ago, snowflake said:

My point is that the LDS God did not create the universe, he "organized it out of existing matter", he lives in the universe on a planet called Kolob and has a body of flesh and bone.

This is a distinct difference from the Christian God who created the universe out of nothing, he exists outside of the universe yet is able to be everywhere at once and entered into our time-space dimension as a human, Yeshua. God, the angels and direct creations of God seem to exist in another dimension that are able to come into our space-time dimension at will. The LDS God is "trapped" in the same time space dimension as us humans, that is my point. 

These points are easily dispelled hokum. And again, I can’t believe how blind Evangelicals often are to the very obvious Biblical facts that contradict their understanding of things.

1) The LDS God does not live on a planet named Kolob. Look it up and don’t take an anti-Mormon clown like Walter Martin’s word it.

2) The one God you believe in lived on this material planet in this material universe; he will again dwell on this material planet in this material universe during his thousand-year millennial reign; and Christ will again dwell on this material planet when it becomes a new earth and the eternal home of those who have resurrected bodies of flesh and bone.

3) The Apostle Paul tells is that in Christ “dwells all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.” Does this mean that the fulness of the Godhead that dwells in the material body of Jesus Christ is “trapped in the same time space dimension as humans” because He also has a material body?

4) In light of the fact that Paul does indeed tell us within the flesh and bone body of the Lord Jesus Christ “dwells all the fulness of the Godhead bodily,” do you believe his body hinders or limits His omniscience, omnipotence, and omnipresence in some way, even in the slightest degree?

5) If your answer to question 4 is no, then if God the Father also possessed a glorified body of flesh and bone would that body limit His omniscience, omnipotence, and omnipresence in any way?

6) if your answer to question 5 is yes, then how would having a glorified body limit the Fathe’s omniscience, omnipotence and omnipresence when possessing a glorified body doesn't limit the exercise of Christ’s divine powers and attributes in any way? 

 

 

 

Edited December 22, 2017 by Bobbieaware

[cdowis]

3 hours ago, snowflake said:

The LDS God is "trapped" in the same time space dimension as us humans, that is my point. 

You are mistaken.  Our ignorance of how the universe works is admitted by scientists

Quote

 

  * Everything we call real is made of things that cannot be regarded as real. Niels Bohr.
    * Those who are not shocked when they first come across quantum theory cannot possibly have understood it. Niels Bohr.
    * If you are not completely confused by quantum mechanics, you do not understand it. John Wheeler.
    * If [quantum theory] is correct, it signifies the end of physics as a science. Albert Einstein.
    * I do not like [quantum mechanics], and I am sorry I ever had anything to do with it. Erwin Schrödinger.
    * Quantum mechanics makes absolutely no sense. Roger Penrose. 
    * It is safe to say that nobody understands quantum mechanics. Richard Feynman.

And, in a little more detail, from Richard Feynman:

I am going to tell you what nature behaves like. If you will simply admit that maybe she does behave like this, you will find her a delightful, entrancing thing. Do not keep saying to yourself, if you can possibly avoid it, ‘but how can it be like that?’ because you will get ‘down the drain,’ into a blind alley from which nobody has yet escaped. Nobody knows how it can be like that.

https://www.colorado.edu/physics/phys3220/phys3220_fa08/quotes.html

 

 

  God is not "trapped" no more than Christ was "trapped" after the resurrection.  " He that hath seen me hath seen the Father"  Christ made it very clear that He was not a spirit but had a body of flesh and bone.

Edited December 22, 2017 by cdowis

[pogi]

9 hours ago, The Nehor said:

If you want to count them as alien visitations you can. I do not. Seems rude to call my Father an alien.

Ya, I am just playing around.  You can't really call the creator of a thing, alien to it. 

[snowflake]

2 hours ago, cdowis said:

Genesis 1: 1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.  Time, space and matter all created in verse 1.

No ex nihlo mentioned here.  "Create" == orgainze existing matter.  An artist "creates" a masterpiece, by taking existing materials -- canvas, pigments, brushes to create == he organizes existing materials for his creation.

It says "heaven and earth", nothing about creating matter.

John 1

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

² The same was in the beginning with God.

³ All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Thou art straining at a gnat.  Very philosophical, using the wisdom of the philosophers and the modern Pharasees.

Matter was not made, it already existed.  All things, including the earth, was "that which was made" but not the matter from which it consists.  This has been clarified in modern revelation.

Not only do the Christians understand this the vast majority of cosmologists believe in some form of "big bang".

So  you agree with them that the universe is 15 billion years old, the earth was created 10 billion years later, that life slowly evolved over several millions of years. 

Am I missing something?

Again, I am simply stating that Christians and Mormons believe in a completely different "creation". The LDS say no beginning, I go with Genesis 1:1 (and the vast majority of Christian groups do too).

[JAHS]

"if it is just us, seems like an awful waste of space" 

[snowflake]

2 hours ago, cdowis said:

God is not "trapped" no more than Christ was "trapped" after the resurrection.  " He that hath seen me hath seen the Father"  Christ made it very clear that He was not a spirit but had a body of flesh and bone.

What I am attempting to say here is that the LDS God exists within the space-time dimension we describe in our science textbooks.  There is much evidence that points that there are more than the dimensions we see and describe, length X width X height X time. I am stating that the God of the Bible exists outside of this in another dimension (somehow) and he created our space-time continuum. Your God did not create the space-time continuum he exists within it.

 

2 hours ago, cdowis said:

 Everything we call real is made of things that cannot be regarded as real. Niels Bohr.
    * Those who are not shocked when they first come across quantum theory cannot possibly have understood it. Niels Bohr.
    * If you are not completely confused by quantum mechanics, you do not understand it. John Wheeler.
    * If [quantum theory] is correct, it signifies the end of physics as a science. Albert Einstein.
    * I do not like [quantum mechanics], and I am sorry I ever had anything to do with it. Erwin Schrödinger.
    * Quantum mechanics makes absolutely no sense. Roger Penrose. 
    * It is safe to say that nobody understands quantum mechanics. Richard Feynman.

I absolutely agree, quantum mechanics is so weird that you can't possibly understand it. The bible hints that God and his angels are outside our time-space domain.

One theory that kind of supports this as well is the holographic universe.

https://phys.org/news/2017-01-reveals-substantial-evidence-holographic-universe.html

 

 

[Josh Khinder]

On ‎12‎/‎20‎/‎2017 at 6:28 PM, JLHPROF said:

My Cosmology is Mormon, so while I believe in life on other planets I don't believe in aliens, interplanetary travel (unless you mean heavenly visitors), or the like.  

The Bible is clear no aliens or Martians 

 

 

[cdowis]

1 hour ago, snowflake said:

Again, I am simply stating that Christians and Mormons believe in a completely different "creation". The LDS say no beginning, I go with Genesis 1:1 (and the vast majority of Christian groups do too).

Gen 1:1 refers specifically to the creation of our system. from the perspective of this earth.  For example, the stars had existed previously but were not seen until the veil of darkness was taken away.  "Let there be light" was not the creation of light itself.

The universe, the stars, other planets, other races of mankind were already created, and our time had finally come.

I go with Gen 1:1 also.  but in the context of additional light and knowledge obtained from latter day revelation rather than from the interpretation of man's wisdom.

Edited December 22, 2017 by cdowis

[mfbukowski]

5 minutes ago, Josh Khinder said:

The Bible is clear no aliens or Martians 

Good.

So when the aliens show up it will prove conclusively that the Bible is incorrect, right? 

 

[snowflake]

23 minutes ago, cdowis said:

Gen 1:1 refers specifically to the creation of our system. from the perspective of this earth.  For example, the stars had existed previously but were not seen until the veil of darkness was taken away.  "Let there be light" was not the creation of light itself.

Wrong, according to genesis chapter 1 the stars were created on day 4 ¹⁶ And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

25 minutes ago, cdowis said:

The universe, the stars, other planets, other races of mankind were already created, and our time had finally come.

Again, stars, other planets, universe day 4.

Other races of mankind, what are you talking about?

26 minutes ago, cdowis said:

I go with Gen 1:1 also.  but in the context of additional light and knowledge obtained from latter day revelation rather than from the interpretation of man's wisdom.

What latter day revelation talks about the creation week?

[snowflake]

5 hours ago, cdowis said:

It says "heaven and earth", nothing about creating matter.

Well what is the heaven and earth made out of?

 

 

¹⁴ In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

¹⁵ Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

¹⁶ For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

¹⁷ And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

 

He was before time, space and matter.

[Josh Khinder]

10 minutes ago, snowflake said:

Well what is the heaven and earth made out of?

 

 

¹⁴ In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

¹⁵ Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

¹⁶ For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

¹⁷ And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

 

He was before time, space and matter.

According to the Book of Mormon and Bible they were created Ex Nihilo 

Jacob 4:9 For behold, by the power of his a word man came upon the face of the earth, which earth was created by the power of his word. Wherefore, if God being able to speak and the world was, and to speak and man was created, O then, why not able to command the dearth, or the workmanship of his hands upon the face of it, according to his will and pleasure?

Psalm 33:9: For he spoke, and it came to be; he commanded, and it stood firm.

 

 

[Josh Khinder]

5 hours ago, cdowis said:

 

Ex Nihilo mentioned in the Book of Mormon and the Bible 

Jacob 4:9 For behold, by the power of his a word man came upon the face of the earth, which earth was created by the power of his word. Wherefore, if God being able to speak and the world was, and to speak and man was created, O then, why not able to command the dearth, or the workmanship of his hands upon the face of it, according to his will and pleasure?

Psalm 33:9: For he spoke, and it came to be; he commanded, and it stood firm.

 

[JLHPROF]

6 minutes ago, Josh Khinder said:

Ex Nihilo mentioned in the Book of Mormon and the Bible 

Jacob 4:9 For behold, by the power of his a word man came upon the face of the earth, which earth was created by the power of his word. Wherefore, if God being able to speak and the world was, and to speak and man was created, O then, why not able to command the dearth, or the workmanship of his hands upon the face of it, according to his will and pleasure?

Psalm 33:9: For he spoke, and it came to be; he commanded, and it stood firm.

 

So really, what is your thinking?
You are clearly a traditional Christian, yet you seem to believe the Book of Mormon teaches traditional Christian beliefs on most theological issues.
Do you believe the Book of Mormon came from God?  You seem to love quoting it (or misapplying it) to prove traditional Christian doctrines.

[Josh Khinder]

4 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

So really, what is your thinking?
You are clearly a traditional Christian, yet you seem to believe the Book of Mormon teaches traditional Christian beliefs on most theological issues.
Do you believe the Book of Mormon came from God?  You seem to love quoting it (or misapplying it) to prove traditional Christian doctrines.

I do by a preponderance of evidence that the writer of Book of Mormon was a Creedal Theologian since it agrees completely with the Creedal Godhead and the person of Jesus Christ and not the Mormon on both

The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak. For the Christ of whom I speak as been revealed in this the Dispensation of the Fullness of Times. He together with His Father, appeared to the boy Joseph Smith in the year 1820, and when Joseph left the grove that day, he knew more of the matters of God than all the learned ministers of the gospel of the ages." (Church News, June 20, 1998, p70) Gordon B Hinckley

We Look to Christ 2002 General Conference April

https://youtu.be/bkks2O6erGU

 

[Freedom]

3 hours ago, snowflake said:

Again, I am simply stating that Christians and Mormons believe in a completely different "creation". The LDS say no beginning, I go with Genesis 1:1 (and the vast majority of Christian groups do too).

Perhaps it would help of we took a closer look at the verse in question:

In the beginning - of what, it doe not say. you just assume it is the beginning of all matter; this suggests that god existed for all eternity in nothingness and suddenly, being the unchanging god that you believe he is, he changed and decided to make stuff appear out of nothing. If I said that in the beginning I did not like carrots, should we all assume that I was referring to the time when matter first came into existence? You are in fact adding to the scriptures to support your doctrine. 

God created - what does the word 'create' mean. You assume it means make something to magically appear out of nothing but it does not. The word better translates as 'organize'.  If I were to say I created a masterful work of art, would you presume I make the materials appear out of nothing? Why do you impose an interpretation that is not justified by the text? You are entitled to your beliefs, but they have no support in a simple reading of the bible. 

the heaven and the earth - ancient isreal had no concept of outer space. the word heaven could mean sky for all we know. You are assuming that it must be referring to the entire known universe. You are also ignoring the fact that Genesis 1 is a liturgical and not a expository text. It is using abstract imagery to teach a gospel concept. If you take the stance that this passage is explaining how the world was formed, then you would have to be a flat earther. 

 

Consider the perspective of someone who you would consider a 'christian', setting aside the very offensive presumptions that mormons are not Christians:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fR82a-iueWw

[Freedom]

56 minutes ago, Josh Khinder said:

Ex Nihilo mentioned in the Book of Mormon and the Bible 

Jacob 4:9 For behold, by the power of his a word man came upon the face of the earth, which earth was created by the power of his word. Wherefore, if God being able to speak and the world was, and to speak and man was created, O then, why not able to command the dearth, or the workmanship of his hands upon the face of it, according to his will and pleasure?

Psalm 33:9: For he spoke, and it came to be; he commanded, and it stood firm.

 

earth was created by the power of his work - nothing in here suggests something out of nothing since create means to organize. Please find me a reference in the book of mormon or bible where it says God created matter out of nothing. For example I could say  "mother spoke and the dishes were cleaned". Nobody would presume that the dirt disappeared into nothingness. It means she spoke and the children listened and set to work cleaning the dishes. 

[Freedom]

43 minutes ago, Josh Khinder said:

I do by a preponderance of evidence that the writer of Book of Mormon was a Creedal Theologian since it agrees completely with the Creedal Godhead and the person of Jesus Christ and not the Mormon on both

The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak. For the Christ of whom I speak as been revealed in this the Dispensation of the Fullness of Times. He together with His Father, appeared to the boy Joseph Smith in the year 1820, and when Joseph left the grove that day, he knew more of the matters of God than all the learned ministers of the gospel of the ages." (Church News, June 20, 1998, p70) Gordon B Hinckley

We Look to Christ 2002 General Conference April

https://youtu.be/bkks2O6erGU

 

Please find a single verse in the bible or the book of mormon  where it teaches the following:

That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the Persons; nor dividing the Essence. For there is one Person of the Father; another of the Son; and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one; the Glory equal, the Majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is; such is the Son; and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father uncreated; the Son uncreated; and the Holy Ghost uncreated. The Father unlimited; the Son unlimited; and the Holy Ghost unlimited. The Father eternal; the Son eternal; and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet they are not three eternals; but one eternal. As also there are not three uncreated; nor three infinites, but one uncreated; and one infinite. So likewise the Father is Almighty; the Son Almighty; and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties; but one Almighty. So the Father is God; the Son is God; and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not three Gods; but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord; the Son Lord; and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not three Lords; but one Lord.

You are conflating the trinity with the teaching of one God. The trinity is an entirely different different teaching found only in the above impossible to understand passage. 

[Josh Khinder]

6 minutes ago, Freedom said:

Please find a single verse in the bible or the book of mormon  where it teaches the following:

That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the Persons; nor dividing the Essence. For there is one Person of the Father; another of the Son; and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one; the Glory equal, the Majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is; such is the Son; and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father uncreated; the Son uncreated; and the Holy Ghost uncreated. The Father unlimited; the Son unlimited; and the Holy Ghost unlimited. The Father eternal; the Son eternal; and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet they are not three eternals; but one eternal. As also there are not three uncreated; nor three infinites, but one uncreated; and one infinite. So likewise the Father is Almighty; the Son Almighty; and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties; but one Almighty. So the Father is God; the Son is God; and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not three Gods; but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord; the Son Lord; and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not three Lords; but one Lord.

You are conflating the trinity with the teaching of one God. The trinity is an entirely different different teaching found only in the above impossible to understand passage. 

Plenty in the Book of Mormon

2 Nephi 31:

21 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God,   without end. Amen.

 

Alma 11:

44 Now, this restoration shall come to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteous; and even there shall not so much as a hair of their heads be lost; but everything shall be restored to its perfect frame, as it is now, or in the body, and shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God,  to be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil.

 

 

Mormon 7:

7 And he hath brought to pass the redemption of the world, whereby he that is found guiltless before him at the judgment day hath it given unto him to dwell in the presence of God in his kingdom, to sing ceaseless praises with the choirs above, unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God,  in a state of happiness which hath no end.

 

The Testimony of Three Witnesses

And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God.  Amen.

Oliver Cowdery

David Whitmer

Martin Harris

 

1 Nephi 13: 41 And they must come according to the words which shall be established by the mouth of the Lamb; and the words of the Lamb shall be made known in the records of thy seed, as well as in the records of the twelve apostles of the Lamb; wherefore they both shall be established in one; for there is one God and one Shepherd over all the earth.

Notice that the Bible mentions three holy's when referring to the Almighty God

Revelation 4:8

 And each of the four living creatures had six wings and was covered with eyes all around and within. Day and night they never stop saying: "Holy, Holy, Holy, is the Lord God Almighty, who was and is and is to come!"

Isaiah 6:3

3 And one called to another and said:

“Holy, holy, holy is the Lord of hosts;

the whole earth is full of his glory!”

And if you notice that the Creed you are referring to says Jesus was inferior to the Father when he became man on line 33