"Infected With Doubt" - Jana Reiss Poll (part 2)

[cinepro]

2 hours ago, RevTestament said:

 D&C 132 makes it clear that if men want an additional wife, the permission of the first is needed to not sin against her. JS probably messed up in communicating his intent  or the extent of his intent, or the like.

Hey RevTestament, I have great news for you.  

It turns out that all the men practicing polygamy needed to get their first wife's permission...except for one person!  Joseph Smith had special permission to practice polygamy without needing Emma's permission.  So he didn't do anything wrong in that regard.

D&C 132:64-65

Tender mercies.

[stemelbow]

2 minutes ago, cinepro said:

Hey RevTestament, I have great news for you.  

It turns out that all the men practicing polygamy needed to get their first wife's permission...except for one person!  Joseph Smith had special permission to practice polygamy without needing Emma's permission.  So he didn't do anything wrong in that regard.

D&C 132:64-65

Tender mercies.

I've come to doubt that many men who practiced polygamy in Mormonism asked their wives for permission, if any.  As it became the norm in Utah, it was likely, "hey where's my dinner?"  He sits down to eat and while doing so, being conversational says, "well, you know that young Hunsaker gal who was being pursued by Tommy Mundson?  Well, since he left on his mission she agreed to marry me, so I guess she's coming home with me next week.  Maybe I'll get her a place down around the Johnson farm for her to stay.   hmm...good potatoes."  

[juliann]

15 hours ago, RevTestament said:

http://hwcdn.libsyn.com/p/5/f/5/5f536b8e62fa8da6/LDSP_Hales_and_Peterson.pdf?c_id=17171825&expiration=1513060428&hwt=cc12172d197a511824b9b7ca7122a97f  esp pp 12-13

So linking to somebody else making tasteless and unsupported comments about long dead women’s marriages makes it ok?  Just STOP. 

[RevTestament]

13 minutes ago, cinepro said:

Hey RevTestament, I have great news for you.  

It turns out that all the men practicing polygamy needed to get their first wife's permission...except for one person!  Joseph Smith had special permission to practice polygamy without needing Emma's permission.  So he didn't do anything wrong in that regard.

D&C 132:64-65

Tender mercies.

Do I sense a bit of rankling or is that more of a challenge? I think it fairly clear that we don't have all the Lord's thoughts on this matter. Verse 66 says: "I will reveal more unto you, hereafter; therefore, let this suffice for the present." So, it seems the Lord has more yet to say on this. I don't really believe the Lord commanded JS to marry any specific woman, but if He did, I suppose Emma was also bound by that commandment, and if He did, it was apparently the only known case in history. I don't believe the Lord commanded Sarah to give Hagar to wife. I believe Sarah did that because under the law, anything of Hagar's was Sarah's. In other words, since Hagar was Sarah's bondmaid, any child Hagar had was legally Sarah's, which gave Sarah the right to pass inheritance to that child. Sarah really wanted Abraham to have a child so she allowed Abraham to take Hagar to wife. So, I think we see the Lord here talking about a law of inheritance. I don't see any compulsion about it. Later, Abraham also took Keturah to wife. Despite, I think Chronicles, which gets translated as Keturah being a concubine, I believe this to be in error. Keturah was probably a cousin to Sarah, and fully legal wife, which made Midian a fully legal son, and Jethro a fully legal inheritor of the priesthood - a fact later Jews probably didn't like.

[mfbukowski]

5 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Apparently the new, third-hour curriculum for next year is not coming any too soon for our L.A. brothers and sisters. The fourth-Sunday discussion topic over the next few months will be Sabbath observance.
 

Sounds like the problem may be deeper than just not understanding or embracing the principles. If Saturdays are occupied with preparing talks, attending meetings and doing Church activities to the exclusion of family time, It sounds like the faithful members in your area may be over-programmed and that some reducing and simplifying are in order.

 

You are viewing this as someone who lives in the "first world" but parts of LA are third world.  

Not all- of course- but the diversity is at once the richness of it and the challenge.

Many work for a living in 6 day a week jobs, hoping to get Sundays off at all.  Not to mention second and third jobs.  And after working 6 days AND doing church callings, you might want to go out for dinner with the family.  FHE?  Not if different members of the family work nights etc.

We have quite wealthy areas in our Stake and quite poor ones as well.  I would mention some of the cities in the Stake (note plural cities) but to do so would reveal too much.  In the middle of a densely populated area our stake is  about ten miles long and five miles wide.  In the middle of LA with high population density.  We have wards speaking three different languages.  At least 18 language communities exist in the mission area and discussions are given in 10 different languages. http://preparetoserve.com/california-los-angeles-mission/

We have former gang members in our Stake fully tattooed to prove it.  We have multi-millionaires in our stake who live in gated communities.   I don't think one can understand the diversity here until one has seen it.

My particular WARD is one of the most diverse and largest because we are consolidating English speaking wards.  Our ward in the middle of LA is about 8 miles long and 4 miles wide.  The population of the area is about a quarter of a million.  Los Angeles is the most densely populated urban area in the US.  https://la.curbed.com/2012/3/26/10385086/los-angeles-is-the-most-densely-populated-urban-area-in-the-us

Stakes are large here and ours is one of the largest and yet the demographics can change drastically within a few blocks

I don't think we compare to any other mission in the church frankly and that is not based on speculation but what we have been told by visiting GA's.

Some missionaries have said:

Quote

 

The California Los Angeles Mission (CLAM) is one of the most diverse missions in the church; you can be in an impoverished area, where six people sleep on the floor in a run-down 200 square-foot studio apartment, and then drive 5 miles down the road, and be in Beverly Hills, where some of the most expensive homes in the country can be found. In a single day, you can teach people from every corner of the globe. In one day, you may meet a Jewish man from England, a man from the Democratic Republic of the Congo who is fluent in English, French, and Spanish, a Filipino family that is fluent in English and Tagalog, a couple from Brazil, a man from Mexico who is a first-generation Muslim, a Chinese family who are first-generation Christians, a Black former gangster turned pastor who has now dedicated his life to stopping gang violence, and a Mexican family where the parents both work two jobs so that they can provide a better life for their children.  (Tyrel)

You could drive across it in 20 or 30 minutes in good traffic… or 3 or 4 hours in bad. -You can go from rich neighborhoods to really poor neighborhoods and back to rich ones in just a few streets. (Chris)

One of the smallest in the world with one of the biggest populations and highest concentrations of missionaries. (Mike)

I was originally called to English at the visitor’s center. Four transfers after, I was called out “full field”. I then was changed to be an ASL sister, the first and only sisters to ever serve in that branch (as far as I know). After a transfer and a half of that, my companion was emergency transferred to the Chinese program. We only stayed there for a short period before she went home early due to mental health issues. I eventually had served exactly half of my mission outside of the visitor’s center and half inside. It was very unusual for sisters to be out that long. (Llikea)

 

http://preparetoserve.com/california-los-angeles-mission/

Not everyone stays in Sunday clothes and not everyone has even heard of such a thing.  And if you only have one day to spend with your family and want to go out for dinner, it's going to happen regardless of what your Gringo Bishop from Utah thinks.

And I am not about to judge anyone for that or even mention it, as a leader, if I know about it

I do not want to lose the family because they went out to dinner or to Disneyland on their passes after church.  They answer the temple recommend questions correctly and they will have a temple recommend.

Edited December 12, 2017 by mfbukowski

[blueglass]

6 hours ago, ALarson said:

There are certainly enough details known about Joseph's polygamy to cause many members to be shocked and upset when they learn about them for the first time.  We can argue over what has actually been proven beyond a doubt, but let's be honest here regarding what we do know and how if affects many members when they are first exposed to it.  I have found very few who at least didn't stumble a bit when they learned about the details or at the very least did an "is that really true?" moment.  

I remember in 2012 when I was serving on the high council at the time and our stake council had a meeting, our stake president showed the video clip from MSNBC with Lawrence O'Donnell as an example of the trash being dumped by the media about Mormonism.  In the video clip O' Donnell says, "Mormonism was created by a guy in upstate New York in 1830, when he got caught having sex with the maid and explained to his wife that God told him to do it. Forty-eight wives later!  - Joseph Smith's lifestyle was completely sanctified in the religion that he invented to go with it. Which Mitt Romney says he believes!"  During the video a number of those in the stake council gasped and it was a bad scene.  The stake president then turned to us for comments about the video clip.  As this was pre nauvoo polygamy essay of 2014, there were many in the room for which Joseph Smith polygamy was entirely new.  I raised my hand, and explained that according to Don bradley who did research on the andrew jensen papers, Eliza R Snow considered Fanny Alger a wife of Joseph Smith.  So I emphasized that he likely married the maid who was working at the house.  The stake relief society president was really upset.  She said she had no idea who Fanny alger was, and if there was any proof joseph was a polygamist.  I explained that the number of 48 wives was likely from Fawn Brodie, and that Tod Compton had the number closer to 32 or 33.  I said  the scandal with Fanny Alger was especially difficult for Emma and Oliver Cowdery.  At the time I was trying my best to make an honest defense, but even the likelihood that some of this was sort of true in a way was really disturbing.  Stake president had a hard time ending the meeting and hoped that we would come to an understanding of these polygamist marriages of joseph smith.  Then we abruptly ended the meeting in a bit of a fog.  It was bad, and I have to admit I drove home that night with a pit in my stomach.  I probably should not have said anything and let everyone bash msnbc, O'Donnell and the lies he was spewing forth.  

[mfbukowski]

29 minutes ago, juliann said:

So linking to somebody else making tasteless and unsupported comments about long dead women’s marriages makes it ok?  Just STOP. 

Does that also apply to long dead men's marriages?

I think the whole topic is irrelevant to anything we do today so let's all JUST STOP and fergitaboutit.

[ALarson]

12 minutes ago, blueglass said:

I remember in 2012 when I was serving on the high council at the time and our stake council had a meeting, our stake president showed the video clip from MSNBC with Lawrence O'Donnell as an example of the trash being dumped by the media about Mormonism.  In the video clip O' Donnell says, "Mormonism was created by a guy in upstate New York in 1830, when he got caught having sex with the maid and explained to his wife that God told him to do it. Forty-eight wives later!  - Joseph Smith's lifestyle was completely sanctified in the religion that he invented to go with it. Which Mitt Romney says he believes!"  During the video a number of those in the stake council gasped and it was a bad scene.  The stake president then turned to us for comments about the video clip.  As this was pre nauvoo polygamy essay of 2014, there were many in the room for which Joseph Smith polygamy was entirely new.  I raised my hand, and explained that according to Don bradley who did research on the andrew jensen papers, Eliza R Snow considered Fanny Alger a wife of Joseph Smith.  So I emphasized that he likely married the maid who was working at the house.  The stake relief society president was really upset.  She said she had no idea who Fanny alger was, and if there was any proof joseph was a polygamist.  I explained that the number of 48 wives was likely from Fawn Brodie, and that Tod Compton had the number closer to 32 or 33.  I said  the scandal with Fanny Alger was especially difficult for Emma and Oliver Cowdery.  At the time I was trying my best to make an honest defense, but even the likelihood that some of this was sort of true in a way was really disturbing.  Stake president had a hard time ending the meeting and hoped that we would come to an understanding of these polygamist marriages of joseph smith.  Then we abruptly ended the meeting in a bit of a fog.  It was bad, and I have to admit I drove home that night with a pit in my stomach.  I probably should not have said anything and let everyone bash msnbc, O'Donnell and the lies he was spewing forth.  

No, you did the right thing and tried to correct what was said by providing the truth.  Good for you too!

[mfbukowski]

20 minutes ago, ALarson said:

No, you did the right thing and tried to correct what was said by providing the truth.  Good for you too!

On the other hand you do not show porn to a child who wants to know where he came from.

Is porn "the truth"?

What is missing in each example?

POINT OF VIEW and understanding of context.  That is not included in either example.  There are no "facts" only interpretations, and comparing porn to loving spiritual marital relationships is a prime example of exactly that point.

Besides that, unlike others, I was never in Joseph's bedroom once when any of this was taking place.

In other words no one even knows the "truth" unless you are Joseph or one of the women he was sealed to.  And what "really happened" may not be even close to what anyone "SAID" what "really" happened.

It seems we complain about different versions of the first vision, similarly to this in my opinion, yet everyone THINKS they know precisely what happened.

Edited December 12, 2017 by mfbukowski

[ALarson]

26 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

On the other hand you do not show porn to a child who wants to know where he came from.

Is porn "the truth"?

Not in my opinion.  I think porn is a pretty distorted view or representation of sex.

 

28 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Besides that, unlike others, I was never in Joseph's bedroom once when any of this was taking place.

I can't see where anything was said that isn't what the church leaders believe or write on this topic.  He didn't get into what Joseph was doing in the bedroom, for example.

[cinepro]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

 

In one day, you may meet a Jewish man from England, a man from the Democratic Republic of the Congo who is fluent in English, French, and Spanish, a Filipino family that is fluent in English and Tagalog, a couple from Brazil, a man from Mexico who is a first-generation Muslim, a Chinese family who are first-generation Christians, a Black former gangster turned pastor who has now dedicated his life to stopping gang violence, and a Mexican family where the parents both work two jobs so that they can provide a better life for their children.

And now they have Farsi speaking missionaries in West LA, teaching Iranian immigrants.  

[juliann]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

 

I do not want to lose the family because they went out to dinner or to Disneyland on their passes after church.  They answer the temple recommend questions correctly and they will have a temple recommend.

Prohibitions on doing ordinary things with family only work well with all Mormon families. Sunday was always the day that my father-in-law gathered the family and took them out to dinner on occasion. I went without guilt.  My mother spent hours cooking on Sundays. It was the best meal of the week. How in the world that is more Sabbath approved than giving the meal maker a rest is beyond me. Unless you are in Utah, the numbers of Mormons isn't going to tip the scale of "making others work."

 

[smac97]

Test.

[smac97]

Test.

d

Edited December 13, 2017 by smac97

[california boy]

7 hours ago, clarkgoble said:

Note this isn't number of people without a recommend but number of people who had a recommend and no longer have it. That seems to high for that figure. Especially given the push to have recommends even if you're not regularly attending the temple. Although perhaps it's high simply because people farther away from temples don't feel the need.

I believe it was a randomized poll where they just kept calling people until they found someone who was a Mormon or former Mormon. They then weighted the results by region to make up for oversampling in places like Utah and make it geographically representative. While there are reasons to be skeptical of some things, it does appear that Jana was very focused on making this statistically relevant. As I said she used to have up a discussion of methodology but I can't find it online now. Does anyone with the Dialogue article know if they went through such issues there?

Making it statistically significant was why it cost so much money. Getting 1000 people take a lot of calling. It's expensive.

I think most people here recognize that. The only answer really is from God and the spirit. No amount of apologetic by FAIR or others can resolve those particular issues independent of God.

However those aren't the majority of charges that critics make. I'd be the first to admit they are the strongest but clearly people don't just stick to them.

That's kind of surprising. I grew up in the mission field - far more mission field than the typical California region where there really are a lot of Mormons. Everyone knew not going shopping, to movies or stores was the rule. Now not everyone followed it. But the bigger issue were disagreement on things like watching TV on Sunday. But I don't think this is a Utah thing. It's repeated rather regularly in Church magazines, conference talks, and lessons. I don't deny in the least this may be a cultural thing in California. But it seems odd that not even the leadership there teaches it.

I should note that I'm a little hypocritical here as I have run to Smiths to get something for Sunday dinner if we've forgotten an ingredient and have company. I'll also regularly take the kids for a drive so my wife can have some alone time to nap. That usually involves getting gas and I'll occasionally get a pop the same time. I've been trying to be better about not going into the gas station on Sundays and only getting gas though. Especially now that my kids are getting older. So it's definitely a principle I don't live as well as I could.

You think you are in trouble for running to the market to get a forgotten ingredient.  I was the Teachers Quorum adviser for a number of years.  We were responsible for making sure the sacrament bread was there each Sunday.  Occasionally the person who was assigned to bring it forgot.  Sometimes I could run home and get a loaf.  But occasionally we didn't have a loaf of bread at home and I would have to go to the store to get it.  I always felt guilty that I was responsible for serving tainted "bought on Sunday" bread to the whole ward.  But then I also felt guilty providing wheat bread occasionally when that is all we had.  There was some unwritten law that sacrament bread representing the body of Christ should be as white as possible.  Wonderbread was the go to choice.  You can't get much whiter than that.

Eventually I learned to always keep a loaf in the freezer clearly marked "Sacrament Bread,  Do Not Use".  I found out that frozen bread will thaw out by the time the Sacrament was passed.  

[mfbukowski]

56 minutes ago, cinepro said:

And now they have Farsi speaking missionaries in West LA, teaching Iranian immigrants.  

Yes they do and I have met one.  Most of Westwood is a "Persian Neighborhood" which is kind of funny to think about it that way.  A multi-million dollar "ethnic neighborhood"?  Yep!

I think if we met we might well recognize each other without knowing eachothers name.   WLA is my old and still  occasional stomping grounds with my work in the temple etc.  

I have many Persian friends through none who are members.

 

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, juliann said:

Prohibitions on doing ordinary things with family only work well with all Mormon families. Sunday was always the day that my father-in-law gathered the family and took them out to dinner on occasion. I went without guilt.  My mother spent hours cooking on Sundays. It was the best meal of the week. How in the world that is more Sabbath approved than giving the meal maker a rest is beyond me. Unless you are in Utah, the numbers of Mormons isn't going to tip the scale of "making others work."

 

Yes that is exactly what I am trying to tell folks here.  If your family includes non-members it is tantamount to shunning them if they ask you out to a family dinner and you refuse because you are "holier than thou."   That was exactly my fiance's (and later my wife of 38 years so far)  feeling in going out for dinner with me after church while I was investigating and before we got married.   And yes- expecting anyone to work all day on a huge family meal on Sunday is absolutely ridiculous.   Our Sundays usually consist of each person foraging for their own leftovers.  If there IS "a meal" typically one person makes something simple like spaghetti or we all hit the fridge for frozen "TV dinners".   That way everyone gets their favorite "flavor".

 

Edited December 13, 2017 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

24 minutes ago, california boy said:

You think you are in trouble for running to the market to get a forgotten ingredient.  I was the Teachers Quorum adviser for a number of years.  We were responsible for making sure the sacrament bread was there each Sunday.  Occasionally the person who was assigned to bring it forgot.  Sometimes I could run home and get a loaf.  But occasionally we didn't have a loaf of bread at home and I would have to go to the store to get it.  I always felt guilty that I was responsible for serving tainted "bought on Sunday" bread to the whole ward.  But then I also felt guilty providing wheat bread occasionally when that is all we had.  There was some unwritten law that sacrament bread representing the body of Christ should be as white as possible.  Wonderbread was the go to choice.  You can't get much whiter than that.

Eventually I learned to always keep a loaf in the freezer clearly marked "Sacrament Bread,  Do Not Use".  I found out that frozen bread will thaw out by the time the Sacrament was passed.  

We almost always have home-baked delicious wheat bread for our sacrament.

Heck you don't even have to eat breakfast before a hunk of that yummy stuff.     I can't quite express how bizzarro all these strange customs sound to me after being a member now 40 years.   I did live in SLC for one year though after my baptism in wanting to find "Zion".   It wasn't there.

 

Edited December 13, 2017 by mfbukowski

[california boy]

22 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

We almost always have home-baked delicious wheat bread for our sacrament.

Heck you don't even have to eat breakfast before a hunk of that yummy stuff.     I can't quite express how bizzarro all these strange customs sound to me after being a member now 40 years.   I did live in SLC for one year though after my baptism in wanting to find "Zion".   It wasn't there.

 

Yeah.  We had the "if you really want to magnify your calling, you should bring home made bread for the sacrament.  More guilt.  

[Scott Lloyd]

48 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Yes that is exactly what I am trying to tell folks here.  If your family includes non-members it is tantamount to shunning them if they ask you out to a family dinner and you refuse because you are "holier than thou."   That was exactly my fiance's (and later my wife of 38 years so far)  feeling in going out for dinner with me after church while I was investigating and before we got married.   And yes- expecting anyone to work all day on a huge family meal on Sunday is absolutely ridiculous.   Our Sundays usually consist of each person foraging for their own leftovers.  If there IS "a meal" typically one person makes something simple like spaghetti or we all hit the fridge for frozen "TV dinners".   That way everyone gets their favorite "flavor".

 

A lot of the things we do might be viewed as “holier than thou” to those who lack understanding. Do I drink alcohol with a friend or relative lest he think I’m shunning him by not doing so? Some folks here would probably say yes. 

Edited December 13, 2017 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

3 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

We almost always have home-baked delicious wheat bread for our sacrament.

Heck you don't even have to eat breakfast before a hunk of that yummy stuff.     I can't quite express how bizzarro all these strange customs sound to me after being a member now 40 years.   I did live in SLC for one year though after my baptism in wanting to find "Zion".   It wasn't there.

 

As I just wrote in an opinion piece, Zion is as much aspirational as it is descriptive. We believers are trying to make what progress we can, wherever we live and whatever our circumstances. 

If the city of Enoch is the model for Zion, does any place on earth live up too it? 

Edited December 13, 2017 by Scott Lloyd

[mfbukowski]

29 minutes ago, california boy said:

Yeah.  We had the "if you really want to magnify your calling, you should bring home made bread for the sacrament.  More guilt.  

Oh my gosh you are always invariably negative about anything.

Only the bishopric even knows who brings it and we often have cheapo wheat and white as well, whatever works.  First you give negativity about white bread then more about wheat bread.  There's no winning for losing with you.

We even have a few gluten free rice chex on the trays for those who need that.  Anything wrong with that??

[mfbukowski]

24 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

A lot of the things we do might be viewed as “holier than thou” to those who lack understanding. Do I drink alcohol with a friend or relative lest he think I’m shunning him by not doing so? Some folks here would probably say yes. 

I wasn't aware that dinner on sunday was on the temple recommend interview- if I am not mistaken drinking alcohol is.  

Edited December 13, 2017 by mfbukowski

[Scott Lloyd]

42 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

I wasn't aware that dinner on sunday was on the temple recommend interview- if I am not mistaken drinking alcohol is.  

I wasn’t aware that temple recommend requirements were comprehensive. 

[california boy]

46 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Oh my gosh you are always invariably negative about anything.

Only the bishopric even knows who brings it and we often have cheapo wheat and white as well, whatever works.  First you give negativity about white bread then more about wheat bread.  There's no winning for losing with you.

We even have a few gluten free rice chex on the trays for those who need that.  Anything wrong with that??

Sorry you took me seriously.  I actually was just kidding.  I hardly feel guilty not baking bread.  And while there was a discussion about the white bread, no one had a problem with wheat.  I guess I should have added a smile or something.

Edited December 13, 2017 by california boy