cinepro Posted December 11, 2017 Posted December 11, 2017 (edited) Smac97 already started a discussion on the HuffPost article discussing the poll about non-belief in contemporary Mormonism, but I've downloaded and read the source article and thought I would share some bullet points for those who are interested. The entire article can be downloaded here for $2, and it is well worth it: "Infected with Doubt: An Empirical Overview of Belief and Non-Belief in Contemporary American Mormonism" - 1,156 self-identified Mormons were included in the poll, as well as 540 former Mormons. - Statistical weighting was applied, and they are confident enough to say "The survey results reported here can thus be considered representative of the United States Mormon population as a whole." (p.4) - While we may presume it's educated "Millenials" that are most prone to leaving, "doubt" seemed to be evenly distributed across age groups, education levels, genders, incomes, and races (although different combinations showed variations in belief). (p.9) - "Divorced or separated" respondents were much more likely to be a "doubter" (28.4%) compared to 12.2% for "Married or widowed" and 16.6% for "Never married." (p.10) - "In general, it seems that the two strongest factors of predicting doubt in contemporary Mormonism are church attendance and social networks. Those who attend regularly and have more Mormons in their social networks are more likely to be Believers, while those who attend less regularly and have more no-Mormons in their family and friendship circles are more likely to be Doubters. Those who are married and have advanced degrees are also more likely to be Believers than Doubters." (p.15) - "It is also notable that the number of family members who have left the Church does not make an independent difference in predicting the likelihood of someone being a Doubter once controlling for the other factors described above. Friends leaving the Church seems to matter more than family leaving the Church." (p.15). - As noted in the HuffPo article, there is a "Seminary effect" that appears to make it more likely for Seminary attendees to remain believers, but it isn't a magic bullet.(p.16). -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The second half of the survey deals with what bothers people about the Church, both past and present. - Interestingly, "Doubters are slightly more troubled by what the Church is doing right now than they are by most other historical or doctrinal issues, such as seer stones or multiple accounts of the First Vision." (p.24). The three key contemporary issues are: 1. The Church's position on LGBT issues (49.0% of Doubters "troubled"). 2. Lack of financial transparency with tithing, donations and spending (48.7%). 3. Excommunication of feminists, intellectuals, and activists (45.2%). But the three worst issues are still historical: 1. Joseph Smith's polyandry (57.4%) 2. Priesthood and Temple ban (50.3%) 3. Joseph Smith's polygamy (49.7%) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Behavior was also polled, and unsurprisingly, "Doubters" were more likely to engage in taboo behavior than "Believers", such as watching R-rated movies or changing out of Church clothes after Church on Sundays. Although it was almost the same percentage of Believers who stay in their Church clothes (30.4%) as Believers who watched an R-rated movie in the past 6 months (32.4%). And Believers were much more likely to pay tithing, do their visiting and home teaching, watch General Conference, and not feel "burned out" after Church. (p.25) - The "favorite part" of being a Mormon for Believers was "Its emphasis on the Savior, Jesus Christ" (51.1%). The "favorite part" for Doubters was "The strong community I enjoy at Church" (42.3%). (p.29) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The final part of the article discusses the ramifications of the results, and what it means for the future. Edited December 11, 2017 by cinepro 3
clarkgoble Posted December 11, 2017 Posted December 11, 2017 I was going to wait until the Dialog article went free. But that is interesting, although perhaps not for the reason some think. If nearly 50% of doubters are so concerned about "lack of financial transparency" and "excommunication of feminists, intellectuals, and activists" that really tells us a lot about doubters. Those are kind of odd things to expect a typical member to really even be aware of, let alone be troubled by. Also, since when did changing out of church clothes after church become taboo? Everyone I know does that unless they're going home teaching or have a meeting. I would like to read more on how the respondents were located and how representative they are. She'd talked a bit about that last year showing she was aware of the issues and sought to deal with them. It's still the one thing I worry about the most. 4
CA Steve Posted December 11, 2017 Posted December 11, 2017 Wait... Quote taboo behavior such as ......or changing out of Church clothes after Church on Sundays. Say what? I have to admit that is one I never heard before.
Calm Posted December 11, 2017 Posted December 11, 2017 "changing out of Church clothes after Church on Sundays" come on about this being taboo...even my grandparents changed clothes 4
ksfisher Posted December 11, 2017 Posted December 11, 2017 3 minutes ago, CA Steve said: Wait... Say what? I have to admit that is one I never heard before. Double say what??? I start changing out of my church clothes the moment I get home. 2
Popular Post juliann Posted December 11, 2017 Popular Post Posted December 11, 2017 3 minutes ago, CA Steve said: Wait... Say what? I have to admit that is one I never heard before. Blast from the past. Back when we didn't have block meetings it was customary to keep your church clothes on. For one thing, back when women had to wear all of the dress-up underpinnings, it was a pain in the neck to have to take it all off and put it all back on again. That was then turned into a respect the Sabbath kind of thing by being uncomfortable for the day. Now I can't imagine anyone keeping church clothes on all day unless they had to go out to meetings or something. And who wants their kids messing up church clothes, if they happen to have special outfits? 9
CA Steve Posted December 11, 2017 Posted December 11, 2017 (edited) 4 minutes ago, ksfisher said: Double say what??? I start changing out of my church clothes the moment I get home. My tie was coming off as I walked out of the chapel. My parents were quite strict about Sunday observance, but staying in Sunday clothes at all wasn't an issue. We would even change out of Sunday clothes, pre-block, between morning Sunday School and afternoon Sacrament meeting. I have to wonder if this is Cinepro just yanking our chains. Edited December 11, 2017 by CA Steve 3
ksfisher Posted December 11, 2017 Posted December 11, 2017 11 minutes ago, clarkgoble said: Also, since when did changing out of church clothes after church become taboo? Everyone I know does that unless they're going home teaching or have a meeting. Unless it's a Sunday I don't wear my suit for home teaching. 1
Scott Lloyd Posted December 11, 2017 Posted December 11, 2017 8 minutes ago, CA Steve said: Wait... Say what? I have to admit that is one I never heard before. 4 minutes ago, Calm said: "changing out of Church clothes after Church on Sundays" come on about this being taboo...even my grandparents changed clothes 3 minutes ago, ksfisher said: Double say what??? I start changing out of my church clothes the moment I get home. Born and raised in the heart of Mormondom with faithful and believing parents, and I have to say the notion of this being "taboo" is bizarre in the extreme. If anything, I was chastized for not changing out of church clothes and was upbraided for "lounging around" in my "good clothes." I think that stems from pioneer ideals of frugality within the Mormon culture. 3
ksfisher Posted December 11, 2017 Posted December 11, 2017 2 minutes ago, CA Steve said: We would even change out of Sunday clothes, pre-block, between morning Sunday School and afternoon Sacrament meeting. I would as well.
Darren10 Posted December 11, 2017 Posted December 11, 2017 (edited) Building off of clarkGoble and CA's posts: Quote ...or changing out of Church clothes after Church on Sundays. Those rebels!!! Edited to add: Include kfisher, calm, julianne and Scott Lloyd since I began writing this post. Obviously this is a hot issue. Edited December 11, 2017 by Darren10
Scott Lloyd Posted December 11, 2017 Posted December 11, 2017 4 minutes ago, CA Steve said: I have to wonder if this is Cinepro just yanking our chains. It would be characteristic.
Scott Lloyd Posted December 11, 2017 Posted December 11, 2017 7 minutes ago, juliann said: Blast from the past. Back when we didn't have block meetings it was customary to keep your church clothes on. For one thing, back when women had to wear all of the dress-up underpinnings, it was a pain in the neck to have to take it all off and put it all back on again. That was then turned into a respect the Sabbath kind of thing by being uncomfortable for the day. Now I can't imagine anyone keeping church clothes on all day unless they had to go out to meetings or something. And who wants their kids messing up church clothes, if they happen to have special outfits? I go farther back into the past than you, and I don't remember this taboo -- not even in the pre-block meeting days. 1
Darren10 Posted December 11, 2017 Posted December 11, 2017 (edited) 7 minutes ago, ksfisher said: Unless it's a Sunday I don't wear my suit for home teaching. I don't wear mine for home teaching even on Sundays. Edited December 11, 2017 by Darren10
cinepro Posted December 11, 2017 Author Posted December 11, 2017 (edited) 14 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: It would be characteristic. How dare you, good sir..! Edited December 11, 2017 by cinepro
cinepro Posted December 11, 2017 Author Posted December 11, 2017 (edited) I have to admit I included that tidbit about all-day Church clothes because I did a double-take when I read it too. But if you recall, even Elder Perry felt it warranted a mention in General Conference a few years ago: Quote I believe He also desires us to dress appropriately. Our youth may think the old saying “Sunday best” is outdated. Still, we know that when Sunday dress deteriorates to everyday attire, attitudes and actions follow. Of course, it may not be necessary for our children to wear formal Sunday attire until the sun goes down. However, by the clothing we encourage them to wear and the activities we plan, we help them prepare for the sacrament and enjoy its blessings throughout the day. L. Tom Perry, "The Sabbath and the Sacrament", 2011 Edited December 11, 2017 by cinepro
clarkgoble Posted December 11, 2017 Posted December 11, 2017 (edited) 6 minutes ago, cinepro said: How dare you, good sir..! Saying one stays in Church clothes is different from saying it's a taboo. Back in my single says I'd frequently go for a drive still in my chuch clothes. I remember four wheeling in mud on a back road from Hobble Creek to Stawberry Reservoir while wearing a nice Versace suit. Which in hindsight wasn't the smartest thing I used to do, but there you go. I don't do that anymore, but that might just be that I learned some sense and change into shorts. Quote I have to admit I included that tidbit about all-day Church clothes because I did a double-take when I read it too. But if you recall, even Elder Perry felt it warranted a mention in General Conference a few years ago: Again though that's hardly a taboo and even he said we shouldn't expect kids to wear church clothes until the sun goes down. Edited December 11, 2017 by clarkgoble 3
mfbukowski Posted December 11, 2017 Posted December 11, 2017 1 hour ago, cinepro said: Smac97 already started a discussion on the HuffPost article discussing the poll about non-belief in contemporary Mormonism, but I've downloaded and read the source article and thought I would share some bullet points for those who are interested. The entire article can be downloaded here for $2, and it is well worth it: "Infected with Doubt: An Empirical Overview of Belief and Non-Belief in Contemporary American Mormonism" - 1,156 self-identified Mormons were included in the poll, as well as 540 former Mormons. - Statistical weighting was applied, and they are confident enough to say "The survey results reported here can thus be considered representative of the United States Mormon population as a whole." (p.4) - While we may presume it's educated "Millenials" that are most prone to leaving, "doubt" seemed to be evenly distributed across age groups, education levels, genders, incomes, and races (although different combinations showed variations in belief). (p.9) - "Divorced or separated" respondents were much more likely to be a "doubter" (28.4%) compared to 12.2% for "Married or widowed" and 16.6% for "Never married." (p.10) - "In general, it seems that the two strongest factors of predicting doubt in contemporary Mormonism are church attendance and social networks. Those who attend regularly and have more Mormons in their social networks are more likely to be Believers, while those who attend less regularly and have more no-Mormons in their family and friendship circles are more likely to be Doubters. Those who are married and have advanced degrees are also more likely to be Believers than Doubters." (p.15) - "It is also notable that the number of family members who have left the Church does not make an independent difference in predicting the likelihood of someone being a Doubter once controlling for the other factors described above. Friends leaving the Church seems to matter more than family leaving the Church." (p.15). - As noted in the HuffPo article, there is a "Seminary effect" that appears to make it more likely for Seminary attendees to remain believers, but it isn't a magic bullet.(p.16). -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The second half of the survey deals with what bothers people about the Church, both past and present. - Interestingly, "Doubters are slightly more troubled by what the Church is doing right now than they are by most other historical or doctrinal issues, such as seer stones or multiple accounts of the First Vision." (p.24). The three key contemporary issues are: 1. The Church's position on LGBT issues (49.0% of Doubters "troubled"). 2. Lack of financial transparency with tithing, donations and spending (48.7%). 3. Excommunication of feminists, intellectuals, and activists (45.2%). But the three worst issues are still historical: 1. Joseph Smith's polyandry (57.4%) 2. Priesthood and Temple ban (50.3%) 3. Joseph Smith's polygamy (49.7%) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Behavior was also polled, and unsurprisingly, "Doubters" were more likely to engage in taboo behavior than "Believers", such as watching R-rated movies or changing out of Church clothes after Church on Sundays. Although it was almost the same percentage of Believers who stay in their Church clothes (30.4%) as Believers who watched an R-rated movie in the past 6 months (32.4%). And Believers were much more likely to pay tithing, do their visiting and home teaching, watch General Conference, and not feel "burned out" after Church. (p.25) - The "favorite part" of being a Mormon for Believers was "Its emphasis on the Savior, Jesus Christ" (51.1%). The "favorite part" for Doubters was "The strong community I enjoy at Church" (42.3%). (p.29) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The final part of the article discusses the ramifications of the results, and what it means for the future. So one third of the sample of "Mormons" includes former Mormons who have left the church and some of the standards include overly-strict practices including staying in a white shirt at tie all day Sunday while listening to the tabernacle choir at home. Hmmm. That sounds pretty absurd to me. Pure garbage in, garbage out. 1
cinepro Posted December 11, 2017 Author Posted December 11, 2017 17 minutes ago, Darren10 said: I don't wear mine for home teaching even on Sundays. Not to totally derail the thread, but I think this is something that can vary quite a bit by locality and tradition. Growing up, we would always wear suits and ties when going to any meeting or activity on Sundays, including open houses, firesides, and home teaching. In the ward I lived in in Los Angeles from 2000 - 2007, it was the same thing. Then we moved to the suburbs and it's almost the opposite. I show up to Sunday-afternoon open houses in a tie, and everyone else is wearing shorts and flip-flops (even in February). We haven't had home teachers in years so I don't know what anyone else is doing, but I still wear a suit out of habit. But I might have to change that... 1
stemelbow Posted December 11, 2017 Posted December 11, 2017 9 minutes ago, cinepro said: How dare you, good sir..! I've heard some members espouse such a thing. i'm surprised so many here haven't interacted much with other Mormons. But 30%? That seems high. I'm probably more confused by the near 10 percent of doubters who do it.
mfbukowski Posted December 11, 2017 Posted December 11, 2017 (edited) 19 minutes ago, cinepro said: How dare you, good sir..! Remember the "doubters" includes ONE THIRD FORMER Mormons!! In that case, not too shabby at all! - Quote 1,156 self-identified Mormons were included in the poll, as well as 540 former Mormons. So total sample size was 1156 + 540 = 1696 540/1696 = 31.8 % Yes of course if one is a FORMER Mormon one would definitely be a "doubter". So why are any included at all? Obviously these numbers are worthless unless I am missing something BIG. Please 'splain me. Edited December 11, 2017 by mfbukowski
Scott Lloyd Posted December 11, 2017 Posted December 11, 2017 3 minutes ago, cinepro said: How dare you, good sir..! I humbly beg your pardon and hasten to retract my comment lest Hair-trigger Hestia impose yet another capricious thread-banning for alleged "insulting language," "statements meant to provoke others," and "net nannying." 1
stemelbow Posted December 11, 2017 Posted December 11, 2017 8 minutes ago, cinepro said: I have to admit I included that tidbit about all-day Church clothes because I did a double-take when I read it too. But if you recall, even Elder Perry felt it warranted a mention in General Conference a few years ago: Man, I swear, these little things get said by our leaders and we totally ignore it. I'll betcha no one in my ward remembers this little tid bit. I'm going to do some surprise sunday visits to various ward members to make my own observations.
stemelbow Posted December 11, 2017 Posted December 11, 2017 (edited) 1 minute ago, Scott Lloyd said: I humbly beg your pardon and hasten to retract my comment lest Hair-trigger Hestia impose yet another capricious thread-banning for alleged "insulting language," "statements meant to provoke others," and "net nannying." Again, not to continue this whining, but at least you get told what you did wrong. Although the few times I do get told I get some pretty odd descriptions, similar to what you type here. Edited December 11, 2017 by stemelbow
Scott Lloyd Posted December 11, 2017 Posted December 11, 2017 12 minutes ago, cinepro said: I have to admit I included that tidbit about all-day Church clothes because I did a double-take when I read it too. But if you recall, even Elder Perry felt it warranted a mention in General Conference a few years ago: What Elder Perry says here seems a lot more reasonable than staying in Sunday-go-to-meeting clothes until bedtime.
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