Stoning people to death

[Jeanne]

4 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

Cacheman, do you envision God trying to teach his children anything? I interpret your comments, and I am connecting dots here, that you think of God as only through rose colored glasses, that she/he is one big bunch of love without ever creating consequences for one's actions. I find this rather often among our society and it surprises me. 

What is sin and does God care about it?

Without uncondiional love..those consequences won't mean anything. 

[Bob Crockett]

1 hour ago, Jeanne said:

Without uncondiional love..those consequences won't mean anything. 

One must be careful about making Jesus a Greek Platonic.  He wasn't.  He entered the Garden of Gethsemane with an armed retinue.  He blessed a non-Semitic child only after repeated entreaties and after call her and her mother a "dog."  He endorsed the wholesale massacre and demolition of Tyre and Sidon.  During the apostolic period, a married couple was stricken dead after lying to the apostles about their finances.  

So much of the rejection of the OT is the result of Greek influence about the notion of unconditional love and condescension.  In reality, there's going to be fire and burning to cleanse the earth, as the Bible repeatedly says.  

The Bible deals with death, war, prophet-led war, massacres, genocide, the patriarchs consorting with prostitutes, God telling a prophet to marry a prostitute to mock Israel, and more.  It is life and God's relationship with man.  You reject that stuff and you basically embrace Plato and he can deliver nothing. 

My Jesus is not a New Age god.

Edited November 25, 2017 by Bob Crockett

[omni]

7 hours ago, Bobbieaware said:

Are the following words, spoken by the Lord himself, in harmony with your idea of a perfectly just and loving God?

15 And there shall be weeping and wailing among the hosts of men;

16 And there shall be a great hailstorm sent forth to destroy the crops of the earth.

17 And it shall come to pass, because of the wickedness of the world, that I will take vengeance upon the wicked, for they will not repent; for the cup of mine indignation is full; for behold, my blood shall not cleanse them if they hear me not.

18 Wherefore, I the Lord God will send forth flies upon the face of the earth, which shall take hold of the inhabitants thereof, and shall eat their flesh, and shall cause maggots to come in upon them;

19 And their tongues shall be stayed that they shall not utter against me; and their flesh shall fall from off their bones, and their eyes from their sockets;

20 And it shall come to pass that the beasts of the forest and the fowls of the air shall devour them up.

21 And the great and abominable church, which is the whore of all the earth, shall be cast down by devouring fire, according as it is spoken by the mouth of Ezekiel the prophet, who spoke of these things, which have not come to pass but surely must, as I live, for abominations shall not reign. (D&C 29)

I feel much of scripture (particularly the OT) is not in harmony with my idea of a perfectly just and loving God.

This being said, I feel acts such as stoning are especially heinous as they can be committed and then justified as a commandment from God.

[Atheist Mormon]

5 hours ago, thesometimesaint said:

It predates the Scriptures too.

True, however we did not legitimize this stuff before Scriptures.

[3DOP]

15 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Other societies also had customs and cultural expectations, along with severe punishments to obtain compliance.  The question here is whether the God of Israel could be held to a higher standard, and what that standard should be.  Bear in mind that two angels of the Lord went to Sodom specifically to destroy the city along with all inhabitants -- except Lot and his family.  Abraham even bargained directly with the Lord to obtain mercy for the city.  Later, in Egypt, the Lord brought plagues upon the Egyptians in order to get Pharaoh to release Israel -- culminating in the angel of death being sent by the Lord to kill all the firstborn of the Egyptians.  Is any of that O.K., and, if so, why?

I have met pastors who plainly and frankly hate the Old Testament, and are unable to reconcile it with the teachings of Jesus in the New Testament. They are embarrassed by ancient Israel and by the Israel of today.  For them, there is contrast, not continuity.  Are they correct?

Hi Robert.

In reply to pastors who plainly and frankly hate the Old Testament, I would affirm that it is Jesus that makes Christians believe the Old Testament.

Do these pastors think Jesus was unable to reconcile His own teachings with the Old Testament? As His apostles would do afterwards, Jesus always shows He believed in the history as well as the morality of the Old Testament saying: "All things whatsoever you would that men should do to you, do you also to them. For this is the law and the prophets." (Mt. 7:12) Does that sound like Jesus summarizes the teaching of the Old Testament as something to be hated? During His life Jesus recognized the continuing authority of the Levitical priesthood. After His resurrection, Jesus used the Old Testament to show how it prefigures the New Testament which was being established:  "And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded to them in all the scriptures, the things that were concerning him." (Luke 24, 26, 27)  Beginning with when Jesus was an infant, the Gospel writer even gives us to see the commendable goodness of following the Law of Moses when Mary and Joseph presented the firstborn in the Temple, as prescribed by the Law. Jesus' whole life, beginning with his upbringing as an infant, until after His Passion and Resurrection, demonstrate a continuous fidelity to the Old Covenant into which He was born."

I don't know of the slightest hint in the New Testament that Christ was uncomfortable with, much less hated, the Old Testament. Neither is there indication that the Mother of Jesus hated the Old Testament, or that an Apostle hated the old Testament. It is hatred of the Old Testament that is incompatible with the teachings of Christ. These pastors need to figure how to reconcile their hatred of the Old Testament with the teachings of Jesus and His Apostles about the Old Testament. 

Regards,

Rory 

Edited November 25, 2017 by 3DOP

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, Bob Crockett said:

One must be careful about making Jesus a Greek Platonic.  He wasn't.  He entered the Garden of Gethsemane with an armed retinue.  He blessed a non-Semitic child only after repeated entreaties and after call her and her mother a "dog."  He endorsed the wholesale massacre and demolition of Tyre and Sidon.  During the apostolic period, a married couple was stricken dead after lying to the apostles about their finances.  

So much of the rejection of the OT is the result of Greek influence about the notion of unconditional love and condescension.  In reality, there's going to be fire and burning to cleanse the earth, as the Bible repeatedly says.  

The Bible deals with death, war, prophet-led war, massacres, genocide, the patriarchs consorting with prostitutes, God telling a prophet to marry a prostitute to mock Israel, and more.  It is life and God's relationship with man.  You reject that stuff and you basically embrace Plato and he can deliver nothing. 

My Jesus is not a New Age god.

Even if all this were true, Bob (and some of it is), why is it that this is not the Gospel of Jesus Christ which we hear preached by both LDS and other missionaries?  This just doesn't sound like the "good news" gospel of salvation through personal sacrifice and love, through faith, repentance, and baptism.  Not even traditional Jews focus on these harsh issues, although they have been frequent victims of genocide.  Are we to take life as just one horror after another?  Is that what we find at church on Sunday? Have we all been hornswoggled?

[strappinglad]

Yes , we are a bunch of milk-toasts. Oh for the good old days of preaching hell-fire and brimstone , when men were men and women were women and God was to be feared as if He were a Columbian drug lord who could destroy you and all you have at a whim. That approach worked so well for ancient Israel which never strayed an inch from the rules of the prophets.

[Bob Crockett]

37 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Even if all this were true, Bob (and some of it is), why is it that this is not the Gospel of Jesus Christ which we hear preached by both LDS and other missionaries?  This just doesn't sound like the "good news" gospel of salvation through personal sacrifice and love, through faith, repentance, and baptism.  Not even traditional Jews focus on these harsh issues, although they have been frequent victims of genocide.  Are we to take life as just one horror after another?  Is that what we find at church on Sunday? Have we all been hornswoggled?

Jesus is about love and compassion and forgiveness.  He isn't a New Age god who admits all unconditionally and a predecessor to Ghandi.  

[The Nehor]

49 minutes ago, strappinglad said:

Yes , we are a bunch of milk-toasts. Oh for the good old days of preaching hell-fire and brimstone , when men were men and women were women and God was to be feared as if He were a Columbian drug lord who could destroy you and all you have at a whim. That approach worked so well for ancient Israel which never strayed an inch from the rules of the prophets.

Some take the analogy to parenthood thing too far and cannot imagine God seriously punishing.

That is looking at the worst caricature of the Old Testament deity and then falling off the other side of the horse trying to compensate.

[Calm]

I am not all that certain what parts of the OT or NT were commanded by God...perhaps all, perhaps only some.

But it does occur to me in a time where a community could be destroyed or enslaved if some members were less than loyal or created internal conflict through their actions, laws like stoning in their severity might have been harsh but necessary 'blessings' in that they created powerful cultural laws and boundaries that kept the community together in tough times allowing it to survive.  There may have been some who died horribly and unfairly because of rules we now are appalled at, but it is possible that without those laws, many more would have died or led horrific lives.  A less restrictive and freer society can unfortunately be easily destroyed by a stronger restrictive, lacking in compassion one.

I wonder how often such rules were invoked in different time periods, etc.  If the above is true, it also occurs to me the community would likely grow out of the need before they dispensed with the laws.  That might have contributed to greater corruption of the law (it became applied to people more stranger than neighbors or family) and thus we have public executions becoming entertainment with hangings and decapitations.

If stonings that required a more personal involment had been always required, I wonder if such scenes of masses picnicking around on the execution grounds would have been as 'cheerful'.  We think of stonings as a barbaric ancient practice, but personally I think the more recent habit of public execution was far more barbaric in result:

http://www.capitalpunishmentuk.org/endpublic.html

"Ordinary people would walk for miles to watch an execution and by the 1850’s, special trains were laid on to take them to the county town, as happened at Stafford on Saturday, the 14th of June 1856 for the hanging of William Palmer.  In many counties, executions were held on market days to enable the largest number of people to see them and school parties would be made to attend as a moral lesson, something which is certainly recorded as happening at Lancaster Castle.  Public houses and gin shops always did a very brisk trade on a hanging day.  In many counties, executions were carried out around noon to give the local people time to get there.  Such was the case at Bury St. Edmunds when William Corder was executed (see below). Thus, many were more or less inebriated before the proceedings began, still a recipe for rowdiness and bad behaviour"

Edited November 26, 2017 by Calm

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, strappinglad said:

Yes , we are a bunch of milk-toasts. Oh for the good old days of preaching hell-fire and brimstone , when men were men and women were women and God was to be feared as if He were a Columbian drug lord who could destroy you and all you have at a whim. That approach worked so well for ancient Israel which never strayed an inch from the rules of the prophets.

Yeh, right.  

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, Bob Crockett said:

Jesus is about love and compassion and forgiveness.  He isn't a New Age god who admits all unconditionally and a predecessor to Ghandi.  

And yet Gandhi-ji took Jesus as a prime exemplar of what one should be, and was assassinated for it by a faithful Hindu.  Joseph Smith was likewise a kind and loving prophet, and was also gunned down by cowards.  None of these guys (Jesus, Gandhi, and Joseph) preached hate and vilification.  Since perception is everything, we need more than platitudes in order to reconcile the Old and New Testaments.

[Darren10]

22 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I do wonder if stoning were the accepted method of capital punishment now and people were expected or even required to participate if our stance on capital punishment might be influenced. There is something to be said about not allowing people to distance themselves from community actions.

Our justice system is designed yo separate society from punishment. It's to separate decisions made on passion. While that is not entirely possible  in any system man can create our justice system relies heavily on intellect in order to decide on guilt and punishment. 

Having people see stoning would have a passionate affect and the film The Stoning of Soraya did precisely that to raise awareness of its use in the Middle East. 

 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Stoning_of_Soraya_M.

The Green Mile did the same regarding the use of the electric chair.

Edited November 26, 2017 by Darren10

[thesometimesaint]

5 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said:

True, however we did not legitimize this stuff before Scriptures.

We as in people? It was done, by people who had no concept of our El. Sticks and stones do break bones.

[Storm Rider]

11 hours ago, Jeanne said:

Without uncondiional love..those consequences won't mean anything. 

This is where I think it goes off the rail most often for individuals. Jeanne, please define what you mean by unconditional love.  Does it mean that you can do whatever you want in this probationary period and God not only loves you, but will make you his joint-heir with Jesus Christ?  Or does it mean that God loves you, and will always love you regardless of your sins, but if you are unrepentant and disobedient you have taken the decision out of his hands as far as your salvation?

[Storm Rider]

11 hours ago, cacheman said:

My parents loved me and taught me that there were consequences for my actions.  Not once did they threaten to kill me in any way.... let alone by stoning.  They never threatened to burn all of us kids or our friends.  Their consequences were proportional, fair, and consistent.  I'm not sure how you ever interpreted my comments in the way that you did, unless you feel that punishment by torture and death is a necessary consequence of minor offenses.  I find that kind of thinking a little irrational, and very unnerving. 

Well, I am thinking of humanity thousands of years ago and what God was working with.  You again are using recentism to argue that what is possible today was possible 5,000 years ago.  Proportional to what law? Whose law?  Is it a divine law or, "Listen, cacheman, I want you in the house at 10:30 Friday night."  Do you see any difference between things that affect one's salvation and things a parent might try and teach his child today about being responsible. 

I am just as unnerved by this fairies flying around, rainbows spouting, and love is a dreamy, never ending invitation to do whatever you want and "I love you anyway and will give you everything regardless."  That is not love, never has been, and never will be, It is a pseudo love that only the evil sells to willing individauls that are searching for an easy way to think they can still be disciples of Jesus Christ without any degree of self-sacrifice.

[Storm Rider]

14 hours ago, thesometimesaint said:

I have no problem with God. I do have problems with what men claim he said.

This is the easy way out. If you, the great seer of all things true, finds anything that does agree with you, then, "Oh, those stupid old men did not know their God and just invented crap up; I just cut that out of the scriptures".  If you think that path gets you to heaven faster and better then go for it.  Never think that you might have to sacrifice your vaunted intelligence that so clearly can define what God is and what he will do and what he will not do.  That is one slippery slope that I will avoid because it so clearly feeds our pride and arrogance.

As for me and my house, I will take the scriptures as they are and seek for guidance from prophets of God and rely on the Holy Spirit to guide.  I know, what a idiot I must be.  But, hey, it works for me.

Edited November 26, 2017 by Storm Rider

[Calm]

10 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said:

True, however we did not legitimize this stuff before Scriptures.

Who is the "we" you are talking about and whyever do you think that man putting responsibility for his own actions on divinity was not see as legitimate before scriptures?

[Bobbieaware]

15 hours ago, omni said:

I feel much of scripture (particularly the OT) is not in harmony with my idea of a perfectly just and loving God.

This being said, I feel acts such as stoning are especially heinous as they can be committed and then justified as a commandment from God.

You seem to have missed my point, so I’ll ask the same question in another way. Do you believe the following horrific destructions, wrought by God himself, resulting in the agonizing deaths of hundreds of thousands of human souls, could have righteously been carried out by a perfectly just and loving God?

2 Wo, wo, wo unto this people; wo unto the inhabitants of the whole earth except they shall repent; for the devil laugheth, and his angels rejoice, because of the slain of the fair sons and daughters of my people; and it is because of their iniquity and abominations that they are fallen!

3 Behold, that great city Zarahemla have I burned with fire, and the inhabitants thereof.

4 And behold, that great city Moroni have I caused to be sunk in the depths of the sea, and the inhabitants thereof to be drowned.

5 And behold, that great city Moronihah have I covered with earth, and the inhabitants thereof, to hide their iniquities and their abominations from before my face, that the blood of the prophets and the saints shall not come any more unto me against them.

6 And behold, the city of Gilgal have I caused to be sunk, and the inhabitants thereof to be buried up in the depths of the earth;

7 Yea, and the city of Onihah and the inhabitants thereof, and the city of Mocum and the inhabitants thereof, and the city of Jerusalem and the inhabitants thereof; and waters shave I caused to come up in the stead thereof, to hide their wickedness and abominations from before my face, that the blood of the prophets and the saints shall not come upany more unto me against them.

8 And behold, the city of Gadiandi, and the city of Gadiomnah, and the city of Jacob, and the city of Gimgimno, all these have I caused to be sunk, and made hills and valleys in the places thereof; and the inhabitants thereof have I buried up in the depths of the earth, to hide their wickedness and abominations from before my face, that the blood of the prophets and the saints should not come up any more unto me against them.

9 And behold, that great city Jacobugath, which was inhabited by the people of king Jacob, have I caused to be burned with fire because of their sins and their wickedness, which was above all the wickedness of the whole earth, because of their secret murders and combinations; for it was they that did destroy the peace of my people and the government of the land; therefore I did cause them to be burned, to destroy them from before my face, that the blood of the prophets and the saints should not come up unto me any more against them.

10 And behold, the city of Laman, and the city of Josh, and the city of Gad, and the city of Kishkumen, have I caused to be burned with fire, and the inhabitants thereof, because of their wickedness in casting out the prophets, and stoning those whom I did send to declare unto them concerning their wickedness and their abominations.

11 And because they did cast them all out, that there were none righteous among them, I did send down fire and destroy them, that their wickedness and abominations might be hid from before my face, that the blood of the prophets and the saints whom I sent among them might not cry unto me from the ground against them.

12 And many great destructions have I caused to come upon this land, and upon this people, because of their wickedness and their abominations. (3 Nephi 9)

Edited November 26, 2017 by Bobbieaware

[cacheman]

4 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

Do you see any difference between things that affect one's salvation and things a parent might try and teach his child today about being responsible. 

Yes.  I believe that parental teachings on responsibilities are practical,  helpful,  and generally good for society.  I believe that rules such as 'keeping the sabbath day holy' reflect an ancient concept of a jealous god.  I don't think anyone's 'salvation' is dependent on following these types of rules.  

[Rain]

22 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

Cacheman, do you envision God trying to teach his children anything? I interpret your comments, and I am connecting dots here, that you think of God as only through rose colored glasses, that she/he is one big bunch of love without ever creating consequences for one's actions. I find this rather often among our society and it surprises me. 

What is sin and does God care about it?

I find there is a middle ground in parenting between beating a child to show consequences and patting a child on the back and telling them they don't need consequences. Just because some of us don't think we should stone our children for taking the Lord's name in vain doesn't mean that we completely ignore the behavior or blow kisses at them over it. 

The way I look at many of the warnings in the scriptures now are natural consequences. I feel that many of those things will happen naturally within the earth because our behavior as a whole. That is how I start to reconcile "his hand is stretch forth still" that is repeated over and over in the Old Testament with the the fire/storms that come as a consequence. 

 

[Atheist Mormon]

5 hours ago, Calm said:

Who is the "we" you are talking about and whyever do you think that man putting responsibility for his own actions on divinity was not see as legitimate before scriptures?

You&I (humans). It was a good scheme though...It works very well after 3500 years. Billions of people are behind the ideology of Finality of Scriptures. 

[thesometimesaint]

8 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

This is the easy way out. If you, the great seer of all things true, finds anything that does agree with you, then, "Oh, those stupid old men did not know their God and just invented crap up; I just cut that out of the scriptures".  If you think that path gets you to heaven faster and better then go for it.  Never think that you might have to sacrifice your vaunted intelligence that so clearly can define what God is and what he will do and what he will not do.  That is one slippery slope that I will avoid because it so clearly feeds our pride and arrogance.

As for me and my house, I will take the scriptures as they are and seek for guidance from prophets of God and rely on the Holy Spirit to guide.  I know, what a idiot I must be.  But, hey, it works for me.

I never said they were stupid. Just working from limited understanding. As we all are.

I've never said to just cut it out of the scriptures. I want all that God has, does, and will reveal.

I hope that by the time I get to Heaven it will be a pleasant and learning experience. There is so much I don't know but want to know.

Without our vaunted intelligence how are we any different than the animals? Do we rely on the scribblings of a bunch of Stone and Bronze Age goat herders for what we know?

Was it God or a prophet of God that claimed we would never be in space or land on the moon? Can a prophet of God be mistaken?

I would never call you an idiot, but you are fallible like all of us mortals. 

 

[Gray]

20 hours ago, Bob Crockett said:

One must be careful about making Jesus a Greek Platonic.  He wasn't.  He entered the Garden of Gethsemane with an armed retinue.  He blessed a non-Semitic child only after repeated entreaties and after call her and her mother a "dog."  He endorsed the wholesale massacre and demolition of Tyre and Sidon.  During the apostolic period, a married couple was stricken dead after lying to the apostles about their finances.  

So much of the rejection of the OT is the result of Greek influence about the notion of unconditional love and condescension.  In reality, there's going to be fire and burning to cleanse the earth, as the Bible repeatedly says.  

The Bible deals with death, war, prophet-led war, massacres, genocide, the patriarchs consorting with prostitutes, God telling a prophet to marry a prostitute to mock Israel, and more.  It is life and God's relationship with man.  You reject that stuff and you basically embrace Plato and he can deliver nothing. 

My Jesus is not a New Age god.

I'm not sure I get the connection between Plato, a God who loves unconditionally, and new age religion. Can you connect the dots? 

If you're looking for a more savage cultic experience per your comments, I'd suggest following the Viking religion instead of Mormonism. Mormonism isn't at all like the ideal you describe. 

Edited November 26, 2017 by Gray

[Bob Crockett]

5 minutes ago, Gray said:

I'm not sure I get the connection between Plato, a God who loves unconditionally, and new age religion. Can you connect the dots? 

If you're looking for a more savage cultic experience per your comments, I'd suggest following the Viking religion instead of Mormonism. Mormonism isn't at all like the ideal you describe. 

Jesus is like a refiner's fire.  He separates the sheep from the goats.  Who can abide the day of His coming?

We bend our will to His, not the other way around.

Edited November 26, 2017 by Bob Crockett