Satan's reaction to Moses

[theplains]

Regarding Moses 1:18-22

"And again Moses said: I will not cease to call upon God, I have other things to inquire of 
him: for his glory has been upon me, wherefore I can judge between him and thee.  Depart hence, 
Satan.  And now, when Moses had said these words, Satan cried with a loud voice, and ranted 
upon the earth, and commanded, saying: I am the Only Begotten, worship me. And it came to pass 
that Moses began to fear exceedingly; and as he began to fear, he saw the bitterness of hell. 
Nevertheless, calling upon God, he received strength, and he commanded, saying: Depart from me, 
Satan, for this one God only will I worship, which is the God of glory.  And now Satan began to 
tremble, and the earth shook; and Moses received strength, and called upon God, saying: In the 
name of the Only Begotten, depart hence, Satan.  And it came to pass that Satan cried with a 
loud voice, with weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth; and he departed hence, even from 
the presence of Moses, that he beheld him not."
 
Jude 1:9 says, "Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the 
body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee."

Do you think Satan reacted the same way with Michael as he supposedly did with Moses?  

Does this reveal Satan has spirit teeth with substance?  Or is this just a metaphor and he really 
doesn't have teeth to gnash with?

Thanks,
Jim

[thesometimesaint]

6 minutes ago, theplains said:

Regarding Moses 1:18-22

"And again Moses said: I will not cease to call upon God, I have other things to inquire of 
him: for his glory has been upon me, wherefore I can judge between him and thee.  Depart hence, 
Satan.  And now, when Moses had said these words, Satan cried with a loud voice, and ranted 
upon the earth, and commanded, saying: I am the Only Begotten, worship me. And it came to pass 
that Moses began to fear exceedingly; and as he began to fear, he saw the bitterness of hell. 
Nevertheless, calling upon God, he received strength, and he commanded, saying: Depart from me, 
Satan, for this one God only will I worship, which is the God of glory.  And now Satan began to 
tremble, and the earth shook; and Moses received strength, and called upon God, saying: In the 
name of the Only Begotten, depart hence, Satan.  And it came to pass that Satan cried with a 
loud voice, with weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth; and he departed hence, even from 
the presence of Moses, that he beheld him not."
 
Jude 1:9 says, "Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the 
body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee."

Do you think Satan reacted the same way with Michael as he supposedly did with Moses?  

Does this reveal Satan has spirit teeth with substance?  Or is this just a metaphor and he really 
doesn't have teeth to gnash with?

Thanks,
Jim

Nothing precludes Satan from acting differently to each one of us. The better to deceive you with, my dear.

Satan does not have a physical body like you and I. He has a spirit body that looks like our spirit bodies(Complete with teeth).

[Robert F. Smith]

38 minutes ago, theplains said:

Regarding Moses 1:18-22

"And again Moses said: I will not cease to call upon God, I have other things to inquire of 
him: for his glory has been upon me, wherefore I can judge between him and thee.  Depart hence, 
Satan.  And now, when Moses had said these words, Satan cried with a loud voice, and ranted 
upon the earth, and commanded, saying: I am the Only Begotten, worship me. And it came to pass 
that Moses began to fear exceedingly; and as he began to fear, he saw the bitterness of hell. 
Nevertheless, calling upon God, he received strength, and he commanded, saying: Depart from me, 
Satan, for this one God only will I worship, which is the God of glory.  And now Satan began to 
tremble, and the earth shook; and Moses received strength, and called upon God, saying: In the 
name of the Only Begotten, depart hence, Satan.  And it came to pass that Satan cried with a 
loud voice, with weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth; and he departed hence, even from 
the presence of Moses, that he beheld him not."
 
Jude 1:9 says, "Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the 
body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee."

Do you think Satan reacted the same way with Michael as he supposedly did with Moses?  

Does this reveal Satan has spirit teeth with substance?  Or is this just a metaphor and he really 
doesn't have teeth to gnash with?

Thanks,
Jim

Yes, it is metaphorical, even though Satan clearly must have non-functional spiritual teeth.  His cry that he is the "Only Begotten" means that he claims to be the legal heir to the throne of God.  Milton's "Paradise Lost" is the best depiction of Satan's plight.

[MiserereNobis]

2 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Milton's "Paradise Lost" is the best depiction of Satan's plight.

And how interesting it is that some Romantics found Satan to be the (Napoleonic) hero of the book. The individual who strives against the greatest power in order to forge his own path to power. William Blake said that "Milton was of the devil's camp and didn't know it." The depictions of Satan and the demons and devils rising up after being cast out of heaven are powerful and it is intriguing that we see Satan and hear his arguments long before we get to hear the other side.

Tangent, I know, but "Paradise Lost" fascinates me.

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said:

And how interesting it is that some Romantics found Satan to be the (Napoleonic) hero of the book. The individual who strives against the greatest power in order to forge his own path to power. William Blake said that "Milton was of the devil's camp and didn't know it." The depictions of Satan and the demons and devils rising up after being cast out of heaven are powerful and it is intriguing that we see Satan and hear his arguments long before we get to hear the other side.

................................

In Mormon understanding, at the great premortal Council in Heaven, Satan made his case, and fully one-third of the Host of Heaven followed him.  A cataclysmic loss, and instructive for parents who feel they failed to raise their children correctly.  In the end, everyone gets to choose his own fate.

[mfbukowski]

6 hours ago, theplains said:

Regarding Moses 1:18-22

"And again Moses said: I will not cease to call upon God, I have other things to inquire of 
him: for his glory has been upon me, wherefore I can judge between him and thee.  Depart hence, 
Satan.  And now, when Moses had said these words, Satan cried with a loud voice, and ranted 
upon the earth, and commanded, saying: I am the Only Begotten, worship me. And it came to pass 
that Moses began to fear exceedingly; and as he began to fear, he saw the bitterness of hell. 
Nevertheless, calling upon God, he received strength, and he commanded, saying: Depart from me, 
Satan, for this one God only will I worship, which is the God of glory.  And now Satan began to 
tremble, and the earth shook; and Moses received strength, and called upon God, saying: In the 
name of the Only Begotten, depart hence, Satan.  And it came to pass that Satan cried with a 
loud voice, with weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth; and he departed hence, even from 
the presence of Moses, that he beheld him not."
 
Jude 1:9 says, "Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the 
body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee."

Do you think Satan reacted the same way with Michael as he supposedly did with Moses?  

Does this reveal Satan has spirit teeth with substance?  Or is this just a metaphor and he really 
doesn't have teeth to gnash with?

Thanks,
Jim

 

Quote

 

7 Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9 The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

— Revelation 12:7–10 (NIV)

 

 

 

I think it was definitely a bad day for lucifer.

I am not sure about his teeth- he might have had dentures, but as this photo shows, he was bald

 

Edited November 19, 2017 by mfbukowski

[CV75]

On 11/18/2017 at 1:43 PM, theplains said:

Do you think Satan reacted the same way with Michael as he supposedly did with Moses?  

Does this reveal Satan has spirit teeth with substance?  Or is this just a metaphor and he really 
doesn't have teeth to gnash with?

Thanks,
Jim

Why does it matter, in either question?

[Blah]

On 11/18/2017 at 6:44 PM, mfbukowski said:

 

 

 

I think it was definitely a bad day for lucifer.

I am not sure about his teeth- he might have had dentures, but as this photo shows, he was bald

 

Worse than bald, he had a COMBOVER. 

[theplains]

On 18/11/2017 at 1:55 PM, thesometimesaint said:

Satan does not have a physical body like you and I. He has a spirit body that looks like our spirit bodies(Complete with teeth).

Joseph Smith taught all spirit is matter. Would this mean that a spirit body has physicality after all, with the
ability to touch and feel?

Thanks,
Jim

[JLHPROF]

11 minutes ago, theplains said:

Joseph Smith taught all spirit is matter. Would this mean that a spirit body has physicality after all, with the
ability to touch and feel?

"There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes." Joseph Smith 

So, yes.

[thesometimesaint]

On 11/26/2017 at 2:06 PM, theplains said:

Joseph Smith taught all spirit is matter. Would this mean that a spirit body has physicality after all, with the
ability to touch and feel?

Thanks,
Jim

We don't know what JS meant with that statement. I'll be sure to ask him the next time I see him. I believe the best that we safely can assume is there some as yet fully defined physicality to a spirit body that looks like us. 

[clarkgoble]

Weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth is a stock phrase to communicate being upset. I'd not read into it anything about Satans appearance. With regards to Jude 1:9 no one is quite what to make of it. Some think the legend that the author was drawing upon comes from The Assumption of Moses. Others think the Assumption of Moses comes from speculating on Jude.  I'd not assume just because the letter mentions it that the tradition is necessarily correct. It's worth noting that the legitimacy of Jude was questioned by some because it appears to quote from an apocryphal text. (Although we should note several texts appear to draw on or quote 1 Enoch)

An interesting question pops up over whether Moses died or was translated. While Dt 34:6 talks about Moses' burial there are also some parallels to Elijah (2 Kings 2:16-17) However getting back to our apocryphal text while Moses dies he's raised to heaven in a way that does recall Elijah or Enoch. As I mentioned in the other thread Moses and Elijah appear to Jesus, Peter, James and John. If, as some think, this is tied to the bestowal of temple blessings on Peter, James and John this might indicate Moses was like Elijah translated. Thereby undermining the claims in Jude.

It's also worth quoting Alma on their tradition about Moses: "Behold, this we know, that he was a righteous man; and the saying went abroad in the church that he was taken up by the Spirit, or buried by the hand of the Lord, even as Moses. But behold, the scriptures saith the Lord took Moses unto himself; and we suppose that he has also received Alma in the spirit, unto himself; therefore, for this cause we know nothing concerning his death and burial."

Edited November 30, 2017 by clarkgoble

[clarkgoble]

On 11/26/2017 at 3:06 PM, theplains said:

Joseph Smith taught all spirit is matter. Would this mean that a spirit body has physicality after all, with the
ability to touch and feel?

That's the typical interpretation but it's so vague as to admit a pretty wide range of interpretations. Part of the problem is that since the discovery of modern physics (General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics) what matter even means has radically shifted since Joseph's day. Further some like Quinn point to texts Joseph may have been influenced by in the broad platonic tradition. There you have two types of matter. There is regular sensible matter and also intelligible matter that is more pure or refined and that is also at the level of spirit. So some suggest that he meant something closer to the platonism of the neoplatonists. Interestingly unlike sensible matter the neoplatonists thought intelligible matter was eternal and pre-existent and a basic constituent of souls and intellect. Often, especially in the Islamic and Jewish medieval traditions this spirit matter was love.

I should note that Parley Pratt had an influential take on creation that came out of the broad neoplatonism of the era (found in such contemporary figures like Emerson). That is human souls were literally made out of the soul of God. With the revelation that spirit was matter and presumably due to reading about Tertullian, Parley's brother Orson Pratt comes up with a more Stoic model of spirits. (Tertullian was an early Church Father but conceived of things in terms of Stoic materialism rather than Platonism like Augustine) Orson then modifies this Stoicism on the basis of the chemist and theologian Joseph Priestley who'd come up with the idea of atoms as the basic constituents of the universe. So Orson's basic cosmology ends up being Stoicism only with atoms instead of interpenetrating fluids. That remained influential in the Church to the present day although B. H. Roberts pushed a few other views.

One could thus see the Pratt's move away from neoplatonism as an indication Joseph didn't intend spiritual matter to be neoplatonism. Or they might just have misunderstood. Or Joseph might have been reading platonism (through the translations of Thomas Taylor) and used it as a stepping off point to a different idea somewhat similar yet unique. We don't really know.

We should note that in the broad folk tradition spirits always were material. The pop-culture idea of ghosts that goes back at least to the Renaissance is that ghost spirits are material, but material like a gas. (We should note that our modern conception of phases of matter and the atomic structure of gases was unknown) The exact parallel is actually steam. When steam is partially a liquid as drops suspended in air we see it. As it evaporates and turns purely to gas it becomes invisible. That's how most people thought of spirits. So the idea of spirits as material doesn't really require neoplatonism nor stoicism.

[SamIam]

On 11/18/2017 at 3:58 PM, Robert F. Smith said:

In Mormon understanding, at the great premortal Council in Heaven, Satan made his case, and fully one-third of the Host of Heaven followed him.  A cataclysmic loss, and instructive for parents who feel they failed to raise their children correctly.  In the end, everyone gets to choose his own fate.

Isn't it interesting that in the case of inheritances, that, of those eligible for an inheritance, each receives one portion while the chosen heir receives two parts?