Bobbieaware Posted October 30, 2017 Posted October 30, 2017 (edited) 47 minutes ago, LittleNipper said: Take it up with Pogi! However, if you are already concerned, you need to beseech God as ask Him to save you in the name of Jesus the Messiah. and tell Christ that you want Him to be Lord of your life. Next read the Bible. I might suggest reading one chapter from an Old Testament book and one from a New Testament book . Pray for His understanding of what you are reading. If you honestly do this I see no reason for you to live in dread of hell. The Latter-Day Saints believe in a God who Is loving enough, intelligent enough, wise enough, compassionate enough and patient enough to be fully able to save quite nearly all of the human race except for those relative few who will refuse to be saved even after having been made fully aware of the love and mercy extended to them through the atonement of Jesus Christ. On the other hand, you appear to believe in a God who isn’t loving, intelligent, wise, compassionate and patient enough to be willing to take the time and expend the necessary effort to save all the human family except for those fully-aware individuals who reject the sure mercies of Christ with their eyes wide open. You also appear to believe in a God who is willing to abandon billions of his human creation to the horrors and unimaginable agonies of an everlasting hell without first taking the time and exerting the necessary effort to be absolutely sure none will be abandoned in hell until they are fully aware of his provisions of love and mercy extended to mankind through Christ. What could possibly motivate me to want to leave the wonderfully loving, just, merciful, long suffering and fair-minded God of the Latter-Day Saints for a God who seems to share more in common with a heartless, tyrannical dictator? Edited October 30, 2017 by Bobbieaware 4
The Nehor Posted October 30, 2017 Posted October 30, 2017 40 minutes ago, LittleNipper said: Take it up with Pogi! However, if you are already concerned, you need to beseech God and ask Him to save you in the name of Jesus the Messiah. Do that all the time. 40 minutes ago, LittleNipper said: And tell Christ that you want Him to be Lord of your life. Got the t-shirt there too. 40 minutes ago, LittleNipper said: Next read the Bible. I might suggest reading one chapter from an Old Testament book and one from a New Testament book. Pray for His understanding of what you are reading. Have read the Bible through a few times. Probably three times now I think. 1 hour ago, LittleNipper said: If you honestly do this I see no reason for you to live in dread of hell. Why would I fear hell? I am not going there. 3
boblloyd91 Posted October 30, 2017 Posted October 30, 2017 Though I admire that Bluebell is trying to create a dialogue, I think we all have to accept that we aren't going to agree (or in some cases even agree to disagree) and this in turn will always lead to a level of contention that will perhaps only be solved when Christ sorts everything out in the end. I know that as an active Latter Day Saint I believe the Bible and have found immense joy from reading it and living it. I recall one of the most spiritual times in my life was when I was on my mission in Iowa and was living in the town of Belle Plain. I was reading the Four Gospels and the Book of Mormon intensely. What came of that is a deep love for the Savior. As Mfbukowski said much better than myself many LDS on this board have sincerely read and prayed and called on the Father and Son for mercy and believe he has answered. When a fundamentalist of any stripe comes on this board (or in real life) and demeans that experience it only alienates and causes us to disregard the critic. That's the heart of the matter, and why these discussions are ultimately fruitless most of the time. Call me a pessimist but I've seen and been through enough of these discussions that I have my doubts about their efficacy. 4
Tacenda Posted October 30, 2017 Posted October 30, 2017 On 10/28/2017 at 1:11 AM, LittleNipper said: I never said that the Bible was not the product of God speaking to humanity through men. The Sruti is claimed by its adherents to be written by GOD alone or so it's been said. The written text is only 500 years old. and ORAL TRADITION is claimed for thousands of years... It's funny that the Old Testament has 2000 year old text and claims an even older oral tradition by its adherents, but people want to discount that. I may read the Sruti one day but I'm saved via the Savior predicted by the Old Testament and not by my perfect life or through flagellation. You want to equate the murder of a drunk possessing a family genealogy (rightly his) with the execution of a convicted thief (warned by GOD) who caused the death of many Israelites! SORRY, but American natives have been found to have no Hebrew DNA. I do claim fossils (footprints, bones and tree trunks --- among other things) and the mountain is known regarding the Flood. and there is an ancient tradition for sighting of the Ark and also worldwide stores from every corner of the world about a horrific Flood that killed humanity and covered all the earth except for one family. So the Flood story isn't simply a Bible story. It has an ancient oral tradition. However, the Bible presents the facts and not distortion. Jonah was a missionary (willfully or not). The 1st recorded one. That is the point of the story. It shows that GOD may take mercy even on a pagan culture where man (in this case Jonah) might disagree but cry over a killed plant. Job illustrates a godly man living in a sinful world. His friends assume that Job must be at fault when in fact Job is not --- bad things can and do happen to good people ---get over it. Esther saved the nation of Israel. Without the nation of Israel there would be no Messiah because the chain of biblical prophecy would have been broken.
LittleNipper Posted October 30, 2017 Posted October 30, 2017 2 hours ago, Bobbieaware said: The Latter-Day Saints believe in a God who Is loving enough, intelligent enough, wise enough, compassionate enough and patient enough to be fully able to save quite nearly all of the human race except for those relative few who will refuse to be saved even after having been made fully aware of the love and mercy extended to them through the atonement of Jesus Christ. On the other hand, you appear to believe in a God who isn’t loving, intelligent, wise, compassionate and patient enough to be willing to take the time and expend the necessary effort to save all the human family except for those fully-aware individuals who reject the sure mercies of Christ with their eyes wide open. You also appear to believe in a God who is willing to abandon billions of his human creation to the horrors and unimaginable agonies of an everlasting hell without first taking the time and exerting the necessary effort to be absolutely sure none will be abandoned in hell until they are fully aware of his provisions of love and mercy extended to mankind through Christ. What could possibly motivate me to want to leave the wonderfully loving, just, merciful, long suffering and fair-minded God of the Latter-Day Saints for a God who seems to share more in common with a heartless, tyrannical dictator? I believe in a Perfect, Just , and very very LOVING GOD! So loving in fact He Himself reduced Himself and became a human in order to shed His very own blood to save whosoever would come to Him. The deity you seem to accept is rather superficial and made in man's image (an image it seems to me Mormons wish to assume for themselves). God is not abandoning anyone. Those that end up in eternal separation from God reject HIM. GOD made the only way for Fallen man possible --- if it is rejected, can there be another Savior to go along with "Another Testament"?
LittleNipper Posted October 30, 2017 Posted October 30, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, boblloyd91 said: Though I admire that Bluebell is trying to create a dialogue, I think we all have to accept that we aren't going to agree (or in some cases even agree to disagree) and this in turn will always lead to a level of contention that will perhaps only be solved when Christ sorts everything out in the end. I know that as an active Latter Day Saint I believe the Bible and have found immense joy from reading it and living it. I recall one of the most spiritual times in my life was when I was on my mission in Iowa and was living in the town of Belle Plain. I was reading the Four Gospels and the Book of Mormon intensely. What came of that is a deep love for the Savior. As Mfbukowski said much better than myself many LDS on this board have sincerely read and prayed and called on the Father and Son for mercy and believe he has answered. When a fundamentalist of any stripe comes on this board (or in real life) and demeans that experience it only alienates and causes us to disregard the critic. That's the heart of the matter, and why these discussions are ultimately fruitless most of the time. Call me a pessimist but I've seen and been through enough of these discussions that I have my doubts about their efficacy. I certainly (as a fundamentalist) am not rejecting the strong possibility that you love the Savior and may even be a saved individual, since you seen to accept the vicarious sacrifice of our Lord Jesus Christ (I am assuming that you do believe and accept this). What I reject is that your salvation or mine, for that matter, has anything to do with accepting the Book of Mormon. This is what will forever separate me as a Christian from becoming a Mormon --- though in fact I do believe we are presently living in the latter days before Christ's prophetic return and I'm a saint (due to being chosen of God). So, I consider myself as much a Latter Day Saint as any other born-again Christian alive today. Edited October 30, 2017 by LittleNipper
LittleNipper Posted October 30, 2017 Posted October 30, 2017 (edited) 3 hours ago, mfbukowski said: Circular argument. Why can't you see that? Maybe there ARE no "sins" to live in! Then there was no Adam! There is no need for hope for a savior or a perfect sacrifice. Your argument is deeply flawed. You are saying "the bible is true because it says it is true" You are assuming the truth without considering any other possibility. If the Bible is false and the savior never existed, you have no evidence for any of this, it is all a fable you bought into. There was no Jesus remember- on this assumption? I know he existed because God has revealed it to me personally not because it is an old book full of truth and fables both. I believe in the savior because God has revealed to me personally that I am saved through repentance after all I can do I Corinthians 15:12-19 (Circular reasoning at its best) The Resurrection of the Dead 12 But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15 More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19 If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied. Edited October 30, 2017 by LittleNipper
Meerkat Posted October 30, 2017 Posted October 30, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, LittleNipper said: I certainly (as a fundamentalist) am not rejecting the strong possibility that you love the Savior and may even be a saved individual, since you seen to accept the vicarious sacrifice of our Lord Jesus Christ (I am assuming that you do believe and accept this). What I reject is that your salvation or mine, for that matter, has anything to do with accepting the Book of Mormon. This is what will forever separate me as a Christian from becoming a Mormon --- though in fact I do believe we are presently living in the latter days before Christ's prophetic return and I'm a saint (due to being chosen of God). So, I consider myself as much a Latter Day Saint as any other born-again Christian alive today. I appreciate your sentiments here. They are polite and encourage respectful discussion. I take it you agree then that Latter day Saints share with you the "born again" experience described in Alma 5:10-13 mentioned in an earlier post: "10 And now I ask of you on what conditions are they saved? Yea, what grounds had they to hope for salvation? What is the cause of their being loosed from the bands of death, yea, and also the chains of hell? 11 Behold, I can tell you—did not my father Alma believe in the words which were delivered by the mouth of Abinadi? And was he not a holy prophet? Did he not speak the words of God, and my father Alma believe them? 12 And according to his faith there was a mighty change wrought in his heart. Behold I say unto you that this is all true. 13 And behold, he preached the word unto your fathers, and a mighty change was also wrought in their hearts, and they humbled themselves and put their trust in the true and living God. And behold, they were faithful until the end; therefore they were saved. 14 And now behold, I ask of you, my brethren of the church, have ye spiritually been born of God? Have ye received his image in your countenances? Have ye experienced this mighty change in your hearts? 15 Do ye exercise faith in the redemption of him who created you? Do you look forward with an eye of faith, and view this mortal body raised in immortality, and this corruption raised in incorruption, to stand before God to be judged according to the deeds which have been done in the mortal body? 16 I say unto you, can you imagine to yourselves that ye hear the voice of the Lord, saying unto you, in that day: Come unto me ye blessed, for behold, your works have been the works of righteousness upon the face of the earth?" Little Nipper, Does that description from the Book of Mormon, Another Testament of Jesus Christ, square with your born again experience as it does mine? I'm curious. And do these words from Enos resonate with you: 26 And I saw that I must soon go down to my grave, having been wrought upon by the power of God that I must preach and prophesy unto this people, and declare the word according to the truth which is in Christ. And I have declared it in all my days, and have rejoiced in it above that of the world. 27 And I soon go to the place of my rest, which is with my Redeemer; for I know that in him I shall rest. And I rejoice in the day when my mortal shall put on immortality, and shall stand before him; then shall I see his face with pleasure, and he will say unto me: Come unto me, ye blessed, there is a place prepared for you in the mansions of my Father. Amen." If these words do resonate with you, what do you have against reading the Book of Mormon as you try to understand why Mormons believe as we do. You may find we are more in agreement than you thought previously. Edited October 30, 2017 by Meerkat
Gray Posted October 30, 2017 Posted October 30, 2017 On 10/27/2017 at 10:20 PM, LittleNipper said: After the birth of Jesus Mary and Joseph remained in Bethlehem until the Magi arrived (possibly a tear or more) and then they fled to Egypt because of an angelic warning. According to Matthew, they fled to Egypt. According to Luke, they just went back to Nazareth. On 10/27/2017 at 10:20 PM, LittleNipper said: Jesus appeared to various apostles at different times. Thomas missed one appearance. According to some sources the first appearance was in Jerusalem. According to others it was Galilee. These are contradictions. The Bible is not infallible.
LittleNipper Posted October 30, 2017 Posted October 30, 2017 (edited) 48 minutes ago, Meerkat said: I appreciate your sentiments here. They are polite and encourage respectful discussion. I take it you agree then that Latter day Saints share with you the "born again" experience described in Alma 5:10-13 mentioned in an earlier post: "10 And now I ask of you on what conditions are they saved? Yea, what grounds had they to hope for salvation? What is the cause of their being loosed from the bands of death, yea, and also the chains of hell? 11 Behold, I can tell you—did not my father Alma believe in the words which were delivered by the mouth of Abinadi? And was he not a holy prophet? Did he not speak the words of God, and my father Alma believe them? 12 And according to his faith there was a mighty change wrought in his heart. Behold I say unto you that this is all true. 13 And behold, he preached the word unto your fathers, and a mighty change was also wrought in their hearts, and they humbled themselves and put their trust in the true and living God. And behold, they were faithful until the end; therefore they were saved. 14 And now behold, I ask of you, my brethren of the church, have ye spiritually been born of God? Have ye received his image in your countenances? Have ye experienced this mighty change in your hearts? 15 Do ye exercise faith in the redemption of him who created you? Do you look forward with an eye of faith, and view this mortal body raised in immortality, and this corruption raised in incorruption, to stand before God to be judged according to the deeds which have been done in the mortal body? 16 I say unto you, can you imagine to yourselves that ye hear the voice of the Lord, saying unto you, in that day: Come unto me ye blessed, for behold, your works have been the works of righteousness upon the face of the earth?" Little Nipper, Does that description from the Book of Mormon, Another Testament of Jesus Christ, square with your born again experience as it does mine? I'm curious. And do these words from Enos resonate with you: 26 And I saw that I must soon go down to my grave, having been wrought upon by the power of God that I must preach and prophesy unto this people, and declare the word according to the truth which is in Christ. And I have declared it in all my days, and have rejoiced in it above that of the world. 27 And I soon go to the place of my rest, which is with my Redeemer; for I know that in him I shall rest. And I rejoice in the day when my mortal shall put on immortality, and shall stand before him; then shall I see his face with pleasure, and he will say unto me: Come unto me, ye blessed, there is a place prepared for you in the mansions of my Father. Amen." If these words do resonate with you, what do you have against reading the Book of Mormon as you try to understand why Mormons believe as we do. You may find we are more in agreement than you thought previously. I'll let the Bible speak for me: Titus 3:5 ESV He saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, Ephesians 2:8-9 ESV For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. Romans 10:9 ESV Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. Ephesians 2:8 ESV For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, John 14:6 ESV Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. Matthew 7:21 ESV “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Acts 4:12 ESV And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.” John 6:44 ESV No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. Acts 16:30-33 ESV Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” And they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their wounds; and he was baptized at once, he and all his family. John 15:1-27 ESV “I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. Already you are clean because of the word that I have spoken to you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. ... Psalm 37:39 ESV The salvation of the righteous is from the Lord; he is their stronghold in the time of trouble. Psalm 3:8 ESV Salvation belongs to the Lord; your blessing be on your people! Selah Psalm 62:1 ESV To the choirmaster: according to Jeduthun. A Psalm of David. For God alone my soul waits in silence; from him comes my salvation. Jonah 2:9 ESV But I with the voice of thanksgiving will sacrifice to you; what I have vowed I will pay. Salvation belongs to the Lord!” Acts 28:28 ESV Therefore let it be known to you that this salvation of God has been sent to the Gentiles; they will listen.” Romans 6:14 ESV For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace. John 3:16-18 ESV “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. John 3:17-21 ESV For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.” Psalm 60:5 ESV That your beloved ones may be delivered, give salvation by your right hand and answer us! Galatians 2:21 ESV I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose. Acts 2:1-47 ESV When the day of Pentecost arrived, they were all together in one place. And suddenly there came from heaven a sound like a mighty rushing wind, and it filled the entire house where they were sitting. And divided tongues as of fire appeared to them and rested on each one of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance. Now there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men from every nation under heaven. ... Acts 2:36-41 ESV Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified.” Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?” And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.” And with many other words he bore witness and continued to exhort them, saying, “Save yourselves from this crooked generation.” ... Acts 2:38 ESV And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Acts 11:18 ESV When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, “Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life.” Mark 16:16 ESV Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. John 3:5 ESV Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. Psalm 25:5 ESV Lead me in your truth and teach me, for you are the God of my salvation; for you I wait all the day long. 1 Peter 3:21 ESV Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, Acts 22:16 ESV And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name.’ Acts 2:41 ESV So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 ESV But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. Ephesians 2:1-22 ESV And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— ... Acts 15:7-15 ESV And after there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Brothers, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. And God, who knows the heart, bore witness to them, by giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us, and he made no distinction between us and them, having cleansed their hearts by faith. Now, therefore, why are you putting God to the test by placing a yoke on the neck of the disciples that neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? But we believe that we will be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will.” ... Mark 16:15-16 ESV And he said to them, “Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 1 Corinthians 1:21 ESV For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. Acts 13:48 ESV And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed. 1 Corinthians 15:1-10 ESV Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. ... Psalm 21:5 ESV His glory is great through your salvation; splendor and majesty you bestow on him. 1 Thessalonians 5:9 ESV For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 1 Timothy 4:16 ESV Keep a close watch on yourself and on the teaching. Persist in this, for by so doing you will save both yourself and your hearers. Psalm 6:3-4 ESV My soul also is greatly troubled. But you, O Lord—how long? Turn, O Lord, deliver my life; save me for the sake of your steadfast love. James 2:18 ESV But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. Romans 3:1-31 ESV Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the value of circumcision? Much in every way. To begin with, the Jews were entrusted with the oracles of God. What if some were unfaithful? Does their faithlessness nullify the faithfulness of God? By no means! Let God be true though every one were a liar, as it is written, “That you may be justified in your words, and prevail when you are judged.” But if our unrighteousness serves to show the righteousness of God, what shall we say? That God is unrighteous to inflict wrath on us? (I speak in a human way.) ... Galatians 3:27 ESV For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. John 12:35-36 ESV So Jesus said to them, “The light is among you for a little while longer. Walk while you have the light, lest darkness overtake you. The one who walks in the darkness does not know where he is going. While you have the light, believe in the light, that you may become sons of light.” When Jesus had said these things, he departed and hid himself from them. Luke 1:67-80 ESV And his father Zechariah was filled with the Holy Spirit and prophesied, saying, “Blessed be the Lord God of Israel, for he has visited and redeemed his people and has raised up a horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David, as he spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets from of old, that we should be saved from our enemies and from the hand of all who hate us; ... Psalm 107:19-20 ESV Then they cried to the Lord in their trouble, and he delivered them from their distress. He sent out his word and healed them, and delivered them from their destruction. 1 Chronicles 28:9 ESV “And you, Solomon my son, know the God of your father and serve him with a whole heart and with a willing mind, for the Lord searches all hearts and understands every plan and thought. If you seek him, he will be found by you, but if you forsake him, he will cast you off forever. John 11:25-26 ESV Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?” Luke 7:50 ESV And he said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.” James 1:21 ESV Therefore put away all filthiness and rampant wickedness and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls. Ephesians 1:17-18 ESV That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of him, having the eyes of your hearts enlightened, that you may know what is the hope to which he has called you, what are the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, Romans 11:1-36 ESV I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel? “Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life.” But what is God's reply to him? “I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. ... John 1:1-51 ESV In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life, and the life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. ... Psalm 118:13 ESV I was pushed hard, so that I was falling, but the Lord helped me. 1 John 2:23-29 ESV No one who denies the Son has the Father. Whoever confesses the Son has the Father also. Let what you heard from the beginning abide in you. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, then you too will abide in the Son and in the Father. And this is the promise that he made to us—eternal life. I write these things to you about those who are trying to deceive you. But the anointing that you received from him abides in you, and you have no need that anyone should teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about everything, and is true, and is no lie—just as it has taught you, abide in him. ... 1 Peter 2:24 ESV He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed. John 5:24 ESV Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life. Revelation 22:11-21 ESV Let the evildoer still do evil, and the filthy still be filthy, and the righteous still do right, and the holy still be holy.” “Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay everyone for what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.” Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates. Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood. ... Revelation 3:5 ESV The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels. 1 John 3:1-5:21 ESV See what kind of love the Father has given to us, that we should be called children of God; and so we are. The reason why the world does not know us is that it did not know him. Beloved, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is. And everyone who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure. Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. You know that he appeared to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. ... Acts 17:30 ESV The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent, Luke 1:67-75 ESV And his father Zechariah was filled with the Holy Spirit and prophesied, saying, “Blessed be the Lord God of Israel, for he has visited and redeemed his people and has raised up a horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David, as he spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets from of old, that we should be saved from our enemies and from the hand of all who hate us; ... Matthew 9:1-38 ESV And getting into a boat he crossed over and came to his own city. And behold, some people brought to him a paralytic, lying on a bed. And when Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, “Take heart, my son; your sins are forgiven.” And behold, some of the scribes said to themselves, “This man is blaspheming.” But Jesus, knowing their thoughts, said, “Why do you think evil in your hearts? For which is easier, to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Rise and walk’? ... Matthew 7:13-14 ESV “Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few. Joel 2:12-13 ESV “Yet even now,” declares the Lord, “return to me with all your heart, with fasting, with weeping, and with mourning; and rend your hearts and not your garments.” Return to the Lord your God, for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love; and he relents over disaster. 1 Peter 3:15-22 ESV But in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect, having a good conscience, so that, when you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ may be put to shame. For it is better to suffer for doing good, if that should be God's will, than for doing evil. For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, ... Hebrews 7:1-10:39 ESV For this Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of the Most High God, met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings and blessed him, and to him Abraham apportioned a tenth part of everything. He is first, by translation of his name, king of righteousness, and then he is also king of Salem, that is, king of peace. He is without father or mother or genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but resembling the Son of God he continues a priest forever. See how great this man was to whom Abraham the patriarch gave a tenth of the spoils! And those descendants of Levi who receive the priestly office have a commandment in the law to take tithes from the people, that is, from their brothers, though these also are descended from Abraham. ... Titus 1:2 ESV In hope of eternal life, which God, who never lies, promised before the ages began Colossians 1:1-4:18 ESV Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, To the saints and faithful brothers in Christ at Colossae: Grace to you and peace from God our Father. We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you, since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus and of the love that you have for all the saints, because of the hope laid up for you in heaven. Of this you have heard before in the word of the truth, the gospel, ... Ephesians 1:1-6:24 ESV Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are in Ephesus, and are faithful in Christ Jesus: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, ... Galatians 3:26-29 ESV For in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise. Galatians 2:20-21 ESV I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose. 1 Corinthians 15:1-58 ESV Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. ... Romans 6:1-23 ESV What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. ... Romans 4:1-5:21 ESV What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, ... Acts 8:22 ESV Repent, therefore, of this wickedness of yours, and pray to the Lord that, if possible, the intent of your heart may be forgiven you. Acts 3:19 ESV Repent therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out, Mark 12:30 ESV And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ Matthew 26:1-28:20 ESV When Jesus had finished all these sayings, he said to his disciples, “You know that after two days the Passover is coming, and the Son of Man will be delivered up to be crucified.” Then the chief priests and the elders of the people gathered in the palace of the high priest, whose name was Caiaphas, and plotted together in order to arrest Jesus by stealth and kill him. But they said, “Not during the feast, lest there be an uproar among the people.” ... Matthew 10:38 ESV And whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. Romans 13:14 ESV But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to gratify its desires. Acts 4:1-37 ESV And as they were speaking to the people, the priests and the captain of the temple and the Sadducees came upon them, greatly annoyed because they were teaching the people and proclaiming in Jesus the resurrection from the dead. And they arrested them and put them in custody until the next day, for it was already evening. But many of those who had heard the word believed, and the number of the men came to about five thousand. On the next day their rulers and elders and scribes gathered together in Jerusalem, ... John 9:1-17:26 ESV As he passed by, he saw a man blind from birth. And his disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?” Jesus answered, “It was not that this man sinned, or his parents, but that the works of God might be displayed in him. We must work the works of him who sent me while it is day; night is coming, when no one can work. As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.” ... Isaiah 32:1-59:21 ESV Behold, a king will reign in righteousness, and princes will rule in justice. Each will be like a hiding place from the wind, a shelter from the storm, like streams of water in a dry place, like the shade of a great rock in a weary land. Then the eyes of those who see will not be closed, and the ears of those who hear will give attention. The heart of the hasty will understand and know, and the tongue of the stammerers will hasten to speak distinctly. The fool will no more be called noble, nor the scoundrel said to be honorable. ... Isaiah 30:15 ESV / 6 helpful votes For thus said the Lord God, the Holy One of Israel, “In returning and rest you shall be saved; in quietness and in trust shall be your strength.” But you were unwilling, 1 Peter 5:1-11 ESV So I exhort the elders among you, as a fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, as well as a partaker in the glory that is going to be revealed: shepherd the flock of God that is among you, exercising oversight, not under compulsion, but willingly, as God would have you; not for shameful gain, but eagerly; not domineering over those in your charge, but being examples to the flock. And when the chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the unfading crown of glory. Likewise, you who are younger, be subject to the elders. Clothe yourselves, all of you, with humility toward one another, for “God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.” ... 1 Timothy 1:1-2:15 ESV Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by command of God our Savior and of Christ Jesus our hope, To Timothy, my true child in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord. As I urged you when I was going to Macedonia, remain at Ephesus so that you may charge certain persons not to teach any different doctrine, nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies, which promote speculations rather than the stewardship from God that is by faith. The aim of our charge is love that issues from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. ... John 6:1-71 ESV After this Jesus went away to the other side of the Sea of Galilee, which is the Sea of Tiberias. And a large crowd was following him, because they saw the signs that he was doing on the sick. Jesus went up on the mountain, and there he sat down with his disciples. Now the Passover, the feast of the Jews, was at hand. Lifting up his eyes, then, and seeing that a large crowd was coming toward him, Jesus said to Philip, “Where are we to buy bread, so that these people may eat?” ... Hebrews 5:1-14 ESV For every high priest chosen from among men is appointed to act on behalf of men in relation to God, to offer gifts and sacrifices for sins. He can deal gently with the ignorant and wayward, since he himself is beset with weakness. Because of this he is obligated to offer sacrifice for his own sins just as he does for those of the people. And no one takes this honor for himself, but only when called by God, just as Aaron was. So also Christ did not exalt himself to be made a high priest, but was appointed by him who said to him, “You are my Son, today I have begotten you”; ... Edited October 30, 2017 by LittleNipper
LittleNipper Posted October 30, 2017 Posted October 30, 2017 28 minutes ago, Gray said: According to Matthew, they fled to Egypt. According to Luke, they just went back to Nazareth. According to some sources the first appearance was in Jerusalem. According to others it was Galilee. These are contradictions. The Bible is not infallible. Luke does not say that they never went to Egypt. Mary, Joseph and Jesus did in fact go back to Nazareth by way of Egypt. It simply picks up the story from a different perspective and moves forward. This isn't a contradiction.
mfbukowski Posted October 30, 2017 Posted October 30, 2017 6 hours ago, LittleNipper said: If Jesus is not the Savior or never existed, we are ALL still living in our sins and separated from GOD. GOD can only see you through ADAM's FALL. There is no hope without a Savior and the permanent shedding of blood of a perfect sacrifice. The Messiah was the only perfect sacrifice ever? If the story of Original Sin is simply a fairy tale, then why do people do evil things? And if we don't need a Savior, why would Jesus go to the cross? He could have simply have walked away... Saying the same thing over and over is not a convincing argument. It is a mantra and I was never into that kind of meditation. You don't understand that all your terminology described above comes from the bible and if the bible is wrong, all your statements are wrong and you still have not given us a reason to believe the bible Of course I happen to believe in the bible- the point is that your argument in favor of it, really doesn't work. In fact it is not even an argument - it is just an assertion repeated over and over. I wish you well and goodbye. You won't have me hassling you anymore. 1
mfbukowski Posted October 30, 2017 Posted October 30, 2017 5 hours ago, Bobbieaware said: The Latter-Day Saints believe in a God who Is loving enough, intelligent enough, wise enough, compassionate enough and patient enough to be fully able to save quite nearly all of the human race except for those relative few who will refuse to be saved even after having been made fully aware of the love and mercy extended to them through the atonement of Jesus Christ. On the other hand, you appear to believe in a God who isn’t loving, intelligent, wise, compassionate and patient enough to be willing to take the time and expend the necessary effort to save all the human family except for those fully-aware individuals who reject the sure mercies of Christ with their eyes wide open. You also appear to believe in a God who is willing to abandon billions of his human creation to the horrors and unimaginable agonies of an everlasting hell without first taking the time and exerting the necessary effort to be absolutely sure none will be abandoned in hell until they are fully aware of his provisions of love and mercy extended to mankind through Christ. What could possibly motivate me to want to leave the wonderfully loving, just, merciful, long suffering and fair-minded God of the Latter-Day Saints for a God who seems to share more in common with a heartless, tyrannical dictator? This captures my perception of this position as well. I have never understood what it would take for a person to actually believe this. 1
thesometimesaint Posted October 30, 2017 Posted October 30, 2017 8 hours ago, LittleNipper said: One day so called Christians maybe questioned (come Judgement Day) why they'd rather peddle "Another Testament of Jesus Christ" to other Christians while ignoring the danger of eternal separation to nonbelievers... Anyone who enters heaven will be surprised no matter what they may imagine heaven is like. The Christian ideal is no to place the cart before the horse and imagination above reality. Each book of the New Testament is "another Testament of Jesus Christ". You seem to be worshiping a collection of books. IK'm quite comfortable with being surprised at how wonderful will be. 1
Meerkat Posted October 30, 2017 Posted October 30, 2017 2 hours ago, LittleNipper said: I'll let the Bible speak for me: Titus 3:5 ESV He saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, Ephesians 2:8-9 ESV For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. Romans 10:9 ESV Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. Ephesians 2:8 ESV For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, John 14:6 ESV Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. Matthew 7:21 ESV “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven., Thank you for all those scriptures, Little Nipper. I loved them and read them all. I was gratified that you chose to highlight some of our areas of agreement. (Although I am still curious whether the quotation from Alma 5 also describes your born again experience. Would you care to answer in your own words? I didn't see that part in the scriptures you shared.) These particularly resonated with me, and Faithful LDS: Ephesians 2:8 (I would include verses 9 and 10) ESV For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, John 14:6 ESV Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. Matthew 7:21 ESV “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Jesus taught the Gospel of repentance, or making the effort to turn from sin and trust in Him to help us do the will of the Father, as you pointed out in Matthew 7:21. Those scriptures make the case that Salvation comes from a combination of Faith in Jesus Christ and effort (or work, if you will,) to repent. The Apostle Paul, like all of us, had the desire to do good. But He couldn't do it. He said in Romans 7 " 19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me." Hence the need for Heavenly Father's free and undeserved gift of Grace to help us. Ephesians 2:10 tells us that we shouldn't ignore or preach against good works, but rather encourage them. "10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." Why anyone would preach faith, without at the same time emphasizing repentance and the importance of good works is beyond me. The way I read Ephesians 2:10, that is what it means to be a Christian. That's what Mormons stand for. Otherwise we are building our religion around what feels good and ignoring substantial scripture content that making a effort to do good is an important part of being a Christian. Would you agree?
LittleNipper Posted October 30, 2017 Posted October 30, 2017 (edited) 6 hours ago, mfbukowski said: Saying the same thing over and over is not a convincing argument. It is a mantra and I was never into that kind of meditation. You don't understand that all your terminology described above comes from the bible and if the bible is wrong, all your statements are wrong and you still have not given us a reason to believe the bible Of course I happen to believe in the bible- the point is that your argument in favor of it, really doesn't work. In fact it is not even an argument - it is just an assertion repeated over and over. I wish you well and goodbye. You won't have me hassling you anymore. God's plan is very simple --- accept and believe. Only a big perfect loving Creator GOD could come up with such a simple formula that involved HIMSELF. Once an individual accepts Christ he becomes a new creature who hates sin and seeks to please GOD. The other way around does not work. Edited October 30, 2017 by LittleNipper
Bobbieaware Posted October 30, 2017 Posted October 30, 2017 3 minutes ago, LittleNipper said: God's plan is very simple --- accept and believe. Only a big perfect loving Creator GOD could come up with such a simple formula that involved HIMSELF. According to LDS teachings, in the end the entire human family (except for those who with full knowledge of the dire consequences of their actions utterly refuse to believe and repent) will accept and believe in Christ, and as a result of that acceptance and belief receive an inheritance in one of the Father’s many mansion’s of glory. All those who accept and believe in Christ will be saved, but there will be differing degrees of eternal reward or glory depending on the degree of love for God, faith and faithfulness manifested in their lives. The most faithful among those who accept and believe will receive more exceeding and eternal weights of glory in mansions that can be likened to the brightness or glory of the blazing sun; others of lesser manifested love of God and faithfulness will receive eternal glories in other mansions that can be likened to either the brightness of the moon or the brightness of the distant stars.This makes sense. Otherwise, why would a perfectly loving, fair-minded and wise God be so cruel, callous indifferent and wasteful with regard to his human creation. The only Latter-Day Saints who have any chance of coming around to accepting your unfair, impatient and tyrannical God are those who don’t understand their own religion.
Meerkat Posted October 30, 2017 Posted October 30, 2017 31 minutes ago, LittleNipper said: God's plan is very simple --- accept and believe. Only a big perfect loving Creator GOD could come up with such a simple formula that involved HIMSELF. Once an individual accepts Christ he becomes a new creature who hates sin and seeks to please GOD. The other way around does not work. Actually, it can work both ways. Living the teachings of Jesus Christ can lead to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ and Heavenly Father: "Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. 17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself." John 7:16-17 I'm puzzled why people talk about an easy Grace and ignore the many scriptures that unambiguously teach "22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves." James 1:22 Grace is easy only if we do what the Savior taught, because the wages of sin is guilt, sorrow and death. Or what about "17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. 18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?" James 2:17-20 Will you agree that both faith and works are important components of Christianity? If you are saying that by accepting Christ, good works will follow, I agree that they should. Belief is not all that is required because even the devils believe. Why do you gloss over scriptures that teach doing good is important an important part of being a Christian? Why do you not respond to this point? You just keep repeating one thing and ignoring the other. Is that why you call yourself "little nipper?" Nip, nip, nip and don't discuss? It's frustrating. This is a discussion board.
LittleNipper Posted October 30, 2017 Posted October 30, 2017 (edited) 52 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said: According to LDS teachings, in the end the entire human family (except for those who with full knowledge of the dire consequences of their actions utterly refuse to believe and repent) will accept and believe in Christ, and as a result of that acceptance and belief receive an inheritance in one of the Father’s many mansion’s of glory. All those who accept and believe in Christ will be saved, but there will be differing degrees of eternal reward or glory depending on the degree of love for God, faith and faithfulness manifested in their lives. The most faithful among those who accept and believe will receive more exceeding and eternal weights of glory in mansions that can be likened to the brightness or glory of the blazing sun; others of lesser manifested love of God and faithfulness will receive eternal glories in other mansions that can be likened to either the brightness of the moon or the brightness of the distant stars.This makes sense. Otherwise, why would a perfectly loving, fair-minded and wise God be so cruel, callous indifferent and wasteful with regard to his human creation. The only Latter-Day Saints who have any chance of coming around to accepting your unfair, impatient and tyrannical God are those who don’t understand their own religion. Those who don't come around in this life think they know better. And if Humans have a second chance in the afterlife, why were not Adam and Eve given a second chance to not eat of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good & Evil. God did make a way for them but they had to continue in sin and death. GOD wants those who choose HIM. He is not interested in robots or He would have created humans as such. So He allows those that so choose to have it their way but for all eternity. GOD is very just, He gives everyone an eternity. And He seals everyone in the eternity that they choose. The angels that stayed on GOD's side were sealed. They can no longer be lost. The same goes for humans. Once saved, they are sealed and cannot at some future time change their minds. So too it must be in Hell. People will experience varying levels of punishment according to their evil works if they are not saved. However, their punishment is sealed for all eternity. There are no second chances after death. Once in heaven one cannot reject GOD and then be sent to hell. In eternity, all memory of all those who reject GOD will be forever forgotten by those with GOD. And those in hell will have nothing by their memories to ponder forever. Edited October 30, 2017 by LittleNipper
Gray Posted October 30, 2017 Posted October 30, 2017 9 hours ago, LittleNipper said: Luke does not say that they never went to Egypt. Mary, Joseph and Jesus did in fact go back to Nazareth by way of Egypt. It simply picks up the story from a different perspective and moves forward. This isn't a contradiction. There's no Egypt in Luke, no slaughter of the innocents. They just head back to Nazareth right after Bethlehem. In fact, the two nativity stories have NO points in common other than the names of the main characters.
thesometimesaint Posted October 30, 2017 Posted October 30, 2017 4 hours ago, LittleNipper said: God's plan is very simple --- accept and believe. Only a big perfect loving Creator GOD could come up with such a simple formula that involved HIMSELF. Once an individual accepts Christ he becomes a new creature who hates sin and seeks to please GOD. The other way around does not work. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. James 2:19
mfbukowski Posted October 30, 2017 Posted October 30, 2017 16 hours ago, Bobbieaware said: The Latter-Day Saints believe in a God who Is loving enough, intelligent enough, wise enough, compassionate enough and patient enough to be fully able to save quite nearly all of the human race except for those relative few who will refuse to be saved even after having been made fully aware of the love and mercy extended to them through the atonement of Jesus Christ. On the other hand, you appear to believe in a God who isn’t loving, intelligent, wise, compassionate and patient enough to be willing to take the time and expend the necessary effort to save all the human family except for those fully-aware individuals who reject the sure mercies of Christ with their eyes wide open. You also appear to believe in a God who is willing to abandon billions of his human creation to the horrors and unimaginable agonies of an everlasting hell without first taking the time and exerting the necessary effort to be absolutely sure none will be abandoned in hell until they are fully aware of his provisions of love and mercy extended to mankind through Christ. What could possibly motivate me to want to leave the wonderfully loving, just, merciful, long suffering and fair-minded God of the Latter-Day Saints for a God who seems to share more in common with a heartless, tyrannical dictator? What the heck I will say it. I think that for all of us our concept of God is based on how our parents treated us. Thing were different in the past. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_Days_(1907_song) Quote School days, school days Dear old Golden Rule days 'Reading and 'riting and 'rithmetic Taught to the tune of the hick'ry stick There were clear and simple boundaries with clear and simple punishments and parents were often indeed tyrannical dictators, especially fathers. You did something wrong, you got your whippin'. Same with God. He would punish "with a few stripes" at the very least or send you to burn forever if you were really bad, or got your theology wrong. And you will still hear some decrying that those days, are gone, and I suspect a correlation there with these religious attitudes. That of course does not necessarily apply to individuals who believe this way- it became part of the culture and individuals in the culture may not have been raised that way, but I am speaking of the culture as a whole In Mormondom for example many are not aware that in the 1930's and 40's virtually everyone in America smoked cigarettes. If you did not smoke you were weird. Every single adult in my family smoked. Family gatherings during the winter especially were held in clouds of smoke. That was non-member culture of the day. Now you have to be odd to smoke, those who do are trying to quit to join the norm and regain health. Cultures change and people change along with them
thesometimesaint Posted October 30, 2017 Posted October 30, 2017 3 hours ago, LittleNipper said: Those who don't come around in this life think they know better. And if Humans have a second chance in the afterlife, why were not Adam and Eve given a second chance to not eat of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good & Evil. God did make a way for them but they had to continue in sin and death. GOD wants those who choose HIM. He is not interested in robots or He would have created humans as such. So He allows those that so choose to have it their way but for all eternity. GOD is very just, He gives everyone an eternity. And He seals everyone in the eternity that they choose. The angels that stayed on GOD's side were sealed. They can no longer be lost. The same goes for humans. Once saved, they are sealed and cannot at some future time change their minds. So too it must be in Hell. People will experience varying levels of punishment according to their evil works if they are not saved. However, their punishment is sealed for all eternity. There are no second chances after death. Once in heaven one cannot reject GOD and then be sent to hell. In eternity, all memory of all those who reject GOD will be forever forgotten by those with GOD. And those in hell will have nothing by their memories to ponder forever. No one is given a second chance once this life is over. We are all given a full and complete understanding of the Gospel either in this life or the next. We can reject it if we want to.
pogi Posted October 30, 2017 Posted October 30, 2017 3 hours ago, LittleNipper said: GOD wants those who choose HIM. Do we choose Him, or are we chosen by God in your theology? How does one even have the choice to believe without a Bible or oral tradition? How does one even believe, except by grace, in your theology? 1
Five Solas Posted October 31, 2017 Posted October 31, 2017 On 10/29/2017 at 4:17 PM, mfbukowski said: "For the grace of God" or not. You have not considered even the possibility that Christ was not the savior or never existed, or so it seems. ... That was a long post - but I think I'll answer by just conceding your second sentence. I think you're right - I've never seriously considered that possibility. Please indulge a couple paragraphs while I'll share a bit, perhaps it will give you a bit more perspective on my experience and thinking. In the last few years of my time as a member of the LDS Church, things were going from bad to worse for me. I didn't have a real testimony, I couldn't get a temple recommend, relationships I pursued ended before they'd hardly begun. I wanted the life I saw everyone else having--marriage, children. I was uncomfortable dating anyone outside the LDS Church, in part because I didn't drink and I felt conspicuous and uncomfortable around those who did (and most do). But I think deep down, I really wanted to find a way to make it work--and I knew that a relationship with a nonmember would ultimately be a dead end in that regard. As I approached my inevitable graduation to the "single adult" program--I had an increasing sense of desperation, that time was running out. I saw that even if I eventually did gain a testimony and a temple recommend, it was going to be too late to meet someone young enough to safely have kids & achieve the life I desired. Never underestimate the motive power of fear. God can use that, for His purpose. I'd read the Book of Mormon numerous times, but it didn't resonate with me and I couldn't bring myself to pretend otherwise, in bishop's interviews or anywhere else. As the pressure grew, it occurred to me that maybe I just wasn't meeting its prerequisites (Moroni 10:4 -5, "having faith in Christ"). Maybe I could get that requisite "faith" from reading the New Testament. Maybe a concerted study would make the pieces fit. And I knew the 400 year-old prose of the KJV was next to impossible for me, so I bought a copy of the Precise Parallel New Testament, which included the KJV along with a few other translations. My employer at the time had me staffed on a project in Dallas for a couple years, commuting most weekends. It's a ~ four hour flight, so I had ample time for Bible study on the plane. I ended up enjoying the study far more than I ever expected--but when I reached Romans 9, therein I experienced something like an epiphany. I still have that copy and you should see those two pages - my underlining and notes saturate the chapter. On an American Airlines flight between Seattle and Dallas, I realized the book in my hand was completely and irreconcilably at odds with the "restored gospel" I'd been struggling (and failing) to believe. I didn't believe & become a Christian in that moment - that faith would happen a couple years later. I merely saw the difference clearly for the first time. Inertia would carry me on a while longer--without hope or excuse. So back to your point, God entering human history as a man--that has always been compelling to me (even if the LDS notion of the Incarnation isn't exactly that). That our world is fallen--one need only scan the headlines. And that it needs a redeemer--that merely follows. I never seriously entertained the possibility Jesus didn't exist or wasn't somehow the savior. I was never drawn towards atheism or religion outside of Christianity. It's interesting you picked up on that. Guilty as charged. :0) --Erik 1
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