Why argue the bible is infallible?

[LittleNipper]

7 hours ago, Jane_Doe said:

It would be much better if you could claim your beliefs and openly say "I believe X based upon versus Y."  Belief is something to claim and be proud of, not hide.  Right now your communication method is... it comes across as you not wanting to admit what you believe and instead hiding behind verses and the air of "if you don't agree with what I'm implying about what I think this verse says but don't have the courage to say, you're Hellhound".  I'm guessing that's not the impression you want to convey.

I want you to read the writing on the wall for yourself and come to your own conclusions upon praying about it.  It is very obvious to me what God is saying in His Word --- but then I have the Holy Spirit. I guess I should not assume... I believe the Bible is inerrant. I forget that perhaps Mormons understand the Bible to be as faulted as they may visualize their own book of Mormon.

[LittleNipper]

2 hours ago, Jane_Doe said:

Let's try this a third time:

If I am holding a Catholic Bible in my hand, am I holding the perfectly preserved word of God?     A "yes" or "no" will suffice. 

I would suggest that you are holding a TRANSLATION. HOWEVER, one may compare the TRANSLATION to the Hebrew and Greek text to verify the honesty of the TRANSLATION. The various books discovered among the Dead Sea Scrolls would indicate that there is no real errors after 2000 years.

[Jane_Doe]

1 minute ago, LittleNipper said:

I would suggest that you are holding a TRANSLATION. HOWEVER, one may compare the TRANSLATION to the Hebrew and Greek text to verify the honesty of the TRANSLATION. The various books discovered among the Dead Sea Scrolls would indicate that there is no real errors after 2000 years.

This isn't about translations.  Different Christian denominations have different Bibles based simply on the content, including entire books existing in one and not the other.  

Now: If I am holding a 73 book Catholic Bible in my hand, am I holding the perfectly preserved word of God?     A "yes" or "no" will suffice.

[LittleNipper]

1 hour ago, thesometimesaint said:

A Bible a Bible we already have a Bible, there can be no more Bible. You worship a man made book.

The book of Mormon is a fine example of a man made book. It appeared complete, "translated" by one man in a very short period of time. The Bible is the joint effort of many writers over many centuries if not thousands of years of both oral and written text ----- who have been led to the very same conclusions without in many instances ever meeting each other. In the beginning was the WORD and the WORD was with GOD and  the word was God. If one worships GOD one must accept His WORD. physical/spiritual revelation of the Bible. I don't see how anyone can fully regard GOD without His Word.

[LittleNipper]

8 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

This isn't about translations.  Different Christian denominations have different Bibles based simply on the content, including entire books existing in one and not the other.  

Now: If I am holding a 73 book Catholic Bible in my hand, am I holding the perfectly preserved word of God?     A "yes" or "no" will suffice.

I am holding a copy of the Book of Mormon in my hand. Am I holding the perfectly preserved word of GOD? A "yes" or "no" will suffice.

[The Nehor]

21 minutes ago, LittleNipper said:

I want you to read the writing on the wall for yourself and come to your own conclusions upon praying about it.  It is very obvious to me what God is saying in His Word --- but then I have the Holy Spirit. I guess I should not assume... I believe the Bible is inerrant. I forget that perhaps Mormons understand the Bible to be as faulted as they may visualize their own book of Mormon.

Don't be ridiculous. The Bible is much more flawed then the Book of Mormon.

2 minutes ago, LittleNipper said:

I am holding a copy of the Book of Mormon in my hand. Am I holding the perfectly preserved word of GOD? A "yes" or "no" will suffice.

Are you still beating your wife? Only answer with a "yes" or "no" please.

[The Nehor]

29 minutes ago, LittleNipper said:

The book of Mormon is a fine example of a man made book. It appeared complete, "translated" by one man in a very short period of time. The Bible is the joint effort of many writers over many centuries if not thousands of years of both oral and written text ----- who have been led to the very same conclusions without in many instances ever meeting each other. In the beginning was the WORD and the WORD was with GOD and  the word was God. If one worships GOD one must accept His WORD. physical/spiritual revelation of the Bible. I don't see how anyone can fully regard GOD without His Word.

Uhhh, the Word is Jesus Christ, not the Bible.

Edited November 2, 2017 by The Nehor

[The Nehor]

17 minutes ago, LittleNipper said:

I would suggest that you are holding a TRANSLATION. HOWEVER, one may compare the TRANSLATION to the Hebrew and Greek text to verify the honesty of the TRANSLATION. The various books discovered among the Dead Sea Scrolls would indicate that there is no real errors after 2000 years.

If you had the original Hebrew or Greek text that argument might hold weight. You don't.

[JLHPROF]

16 minutes ago, LittleNipper said:

Quote

  23 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

This isn't about translations.  Different Christian denominations have different Bibles based simply on the content, including entire books existing in one and not the other.  

Now: If I am holding a 73 book Catholic Bible in my hand, am I holding the perfectly preserved word of God?     A "yes" or "no" will suffice.

I am holding a copy of the Book of Mormon in my hand. Am I holding the perfectly preserved word of GOD? A "yes" or "no" will suffice.

 

As I said, why can't "traditional" Christians ever give a straight answer?

And yes, the Book of Mormon is at least as perfectly preserved as the Bible.  More so because we have record of God's direct influence on the document.
 

[LittleNipper]

24 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

 

As I said, why can't "traditional" Christians ever give a straight answer?

And yes, the Book of Mormon is at least as perfectly preserved as the Bible.  More so because we have record of God's direct influence on the document.
 

Do you have a copy from the 2 century BC? I'd love to see it! That is the age of the oldest Old Testament text found to date. The Septuagint is a Greek translation of the Old Testament and existed before Jesus was born. The disciples would have had the opportunity to review it. And certainly religious leaders of the day would have been able to make educated comparisons between the Hebrew and Greek text. The Hebrew text we have today would be the very same as those read by Jesus in the temple at Jerusalem. Do have such an example for the book of Mormon as proof of its integrity.  You see, Jesus the Messiah not only fulfilled, and clarified His Word but verified its validity also. Is this the fact concerning the Book of Mormon or Mr Joseph Smith's opinion? How do YOU know what you say is true concerning the book of Mormon? We have 2000+ years of documentation concerning the Bible from more than just Christian sources.

Edited November 2, 2017 by LittleNipper

[The Nehor]

2 minutes ago, LittleNipper said:

Do you have a copy from the 2 century BC? I'd love to see it! That is the age of the oldest Old Testament text found to date. The Septuagint is a Greek translation of the Old Testament and existed before Jesus was born. The disciples would have had the opportunity to review it. And certainly religious leaders of the day would have been able to make educated comparisons between the Hebrew and Greek text. The Hebrew text we have today would be the very same as those read by Jesus in the temple at Jerusalem. Do have such an example for the book of Mormon as proof of its integrity.  You see, Jesus the Messiah not only fulfilled, and clarified His Word but verified its validity also. Is this the fact concerning the Book of Mormon or Mr Joseph Smith's opinion?

Are you sure you want to go there? I mean, Jesus said nothing in the Bible about the validity of it except for some Old Testament books.

But sure, here is one of God's statements about the Book of Mormon: 

Quote

 

Behold, I am God and have spoken it; these commandments are of me, and were given unto my servants in their weakness, after the manner of their language, that they might come to understanding.

And inasmuch as they erred it might be made known;

And inasmuch as they sought wisdom they might be instructed;

And inasmuch as they sinned they might be chastened, that they might repent;

And inasmuch as they were humble they might be made strong, and blessed from on high, and receive knowledge from time to time.

And after having received the record of the Nephites, yea, even my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., might have power to translate through the mercy of God, by the power of God, the Book of Mormon.

 

So we have an endorsement of our translation. Do you have one for whatever Bible you use?

[JLHPROF]

10 minutes ago, LittleNipper said:

Do you have a copy from the 2 century BC? I'd love to see it! That is the age of the oldest Old Testament text found to date. The Septuagint is a Greek translation of the Old Testament and existed before Jesus was born. The disciples would have had the opportunity to review it. And certainly religious leaders of the day would have been able to make educated comparisons between the Hebrew and Greek text. The Hebrew text we have today would be the very same as those read by Jesus in the temple at Jerusalem. Do have such an example for the book of Mormon as proof of its integrity.  You see, Jesus the Messiah not only fulfilled, and clarified His Word but verified its validity also. Is this the fact concerning the Book of Mormon or Mr Joseph Smith's opinion? How do YOU know what you say is true concerning the book of Mormon? We have 2000+ years of documentation concerning the Bible from more than just Christian sources.

Nehor beat me to it but he's right.
Do YOU have a copy of Jesus' words from his lifetime?
And the Book of Mormon states that its true the same way the Bible states that its true.  Both make the same claim, which cannot be used to prove anything.

And finally, once again, you refuse to answer the questions posed and resort to the same old rhetoric.  That is NOT discussion.
In fact, I'm going to ask on behalf of Jane:

You stated that The Bible claims to be the truth, the Word of God, the perfectly preserved, pure and infallible Word of God. 
Jane asked you "If I am holding a Catholic Bible in my hand, am I holding the perfectly preserved word of God?"
And you refused to answer.

Answer the question or retract the statement. Is the Bible always the word of God or isn't it?

[LittleNipper]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

Are you sure you want to go there? I mean, Jesus said nothing in the Bible about the validity of it except for some Old Testament books.

But sure, here is one of God's statements about the Book of Mormon: 

So we have an endorsement of our translation. Do you have one for whatever Bible you use?

Didn't Joseph Smith ALONE transcribe this endorsement?  How long has this scripture historically existed? 

We could cite many reasons for the Old Testament being God’s Word, but the strongest argument comes from the Lord Jesus Himself. As God in human flesh, Jesus speaks with final authority.

Jesus believed that the Old Testament was divinely inspired, the veritable Word of God. He said, ‘The Scripture cannot be broken’ (John 10:35). He referred to Scripture as ‘the commandment of God’ (Matthew 15:3) and as the ‘Word of God’ (Mark 7:13). He also indicated that it was indestructible: ‘Until Heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass away from the law, until all is accomplished’ (Matthew 5:18).

When dealing with the people of His time period, whether it was with the disciples or religious leaders, Jesus consistently referenced the Old Testament: ‘Have you not read that which was spoken to you by God?’ (Matthew 22:31); ‘Yea; and have you never read, “Out of the mouth of infants and nursing babes thou has prepared praise for thyself”?’ (Matthew 21:16, citing Psalm 8:2); and ‘Have you not read what David did?’ (Matthew 12:3). Examples could be multiplied to demonstrate that Jesus was conversant with the Old Testament and its content. He quoted from it often and trusted it totally.

Throughout the Gospels, we find Jesus confirming many of the accounts in the Old Testament such as the Flood (Matt. 24:37-38), the destruction of Sodom and the death of Lot’s wife (Luke 17:29, 32) the murder of Abel by his brother Cain (Luke 11:51), the calling of Moses (Mark 12:26), and the manna given in the wilderness (John 6:31–51).

The list of examples continues: Jesus saw the Old Testament as being God’s Word, and His attitude toward it was nothing less than total trust. Many people want to accept Jesus, yet they reject a large portion of the Old Testament. Either Jesus realized what He was saying, or He didn’t. 

Edited November 2, 2017 by LittleNipper

[pogi]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

If you had the original Hebrew or Greek text that argument might hold weight. You don't.

On top of that, Christ did not teach in Hebrew or Greek, so how is the Hebrew or Greek translation going to help me verify against the original word of God (a Galilean dialect of Aramaic) which is long lost and not preserved at all. 

[LittleNipper]

44 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Nehor beat me to it but he's right.
Do YOU have a copy of Jesus' words from his lifetime?
And the Book of Mormon states that its true the same way the Bible states that its true.  Both make the same claim, which cannot be used to prove anything.

And finally, once again, you refuse to answer the questions posed and resort to the same old rhetoric.  That is NOT discussion.
In fact, I'm going to ask on behalf of Jane:

You stated that The Bible claims to be the truth, the Word of God, the perfectly preserved, pure and infallible Word of God. 
Jane asked you "If I am holding a Catholic Bible in my hand, am I holding the perfectly preserved word of God?"
And you refused to answer.

Answer the question or retract the statement. Is the Bible always the word of God or isn't it?

I have words of Jesus' personally trained apostles and disciples. He personally spoke to them in their lifetime.  What do you have?

[LittleNipper]

3 minutes ago, pogi said:

On top of that, Christ did not teach in Hebrew or Greek, so how is the Hebrew or Greek translation going to help me verify against the original word of God (a Galilean dialect of Aramaic) which is long lost and not preserved at all. 

And this means exactly what? Jesus could read the Hebrew text in the temple at Jerusalem at age 12. Matthew apparently was a physician and well educated. He likely read Greek. There were churches founded in Greece. Why would you wish to prove that the Bible isn't very much correct and intact as originally written. What could you possibly gain from proving me entirely wrong? Such a thing certainly would not substantiate Christianity.  

[LittleNipper]

I can readily  understand that if the Bible is infallible, the book of Mormon would need to be also or the BOM isn't what it purports to be --- namely the inspired word of GOD! 

[Jane_Doe]

2 hours ago, LittleNipper said:

I want you to read the writing on the wall for yourself and come to your own conclusions upon praying about it. 

You're approaching this from an evangelical mindset: trying to change my beliefs to be yours.  

That is not at all what I am doing: I am approaching this from an interfaith perspective, trying to understand your beliefs just to understand them and respect you.  Every time you refuse to explain what you believe, you frustrate that process and it becomes increasingly difficult for me to respect you at all.  Would you like to directly and my questions and be understood/respected that way (without trying to change my beliefs), or do you choose only to view me as a potential convert?

Edited November 2, 2017 by Jane_Doe

[Jane_Doe]

2 hours ago, LittleNipper said:

I am holding a copy of the Book of Mormon in my hand. Am I holding the perfectly preserved word of GOD? A "yes" or "no" will suffice.

Once again you have blatantly refused to answer my question.  This is disrespectful to me, frustrating, and makes it appear as if you/your faith are incapable of addressing a simple question.  Please stop, and instead treat me and your own faith with respect.  

Edited November 2, 2017 by Jane_Doe

[pogi]

23 minutes ago, LittleNipper said:

And this means exactly what? Jesus could read the Hebrew text in the temple at Jerusalem at age 12. Matthew apparently was a physician and well educated. He likely read Greek. There were churches founded in Greece. Why would you wish to prove that the Bible isn't very much correct and intact as originally written.

Did Christ give the sermon on the mount in Greek?  Where is the preserved word of God as it was given?

Quote

What could you possibly gain from proving me entirely wrong? Such a thing certainly would not substantiate Christianity.  

What I gain from showing that the word of God is not perfectly preserved in written form, is an absolute reliance on the living Word via the Holy Ghost.  The Bible is only a catalyst to the Word, it is not the pure word of God which can only be written on the fleshy tablets of the heart.  It cannot be captured with pen or paper.  The Bible is man's version of God's word.  It is only an approximation - a symbol of something divine, which words cannot capture.  Man's language is corrupt, God's word is undefiled by man's tongue.  It is not of this world.  The Bible has value, not because it is perfect and contains God's preserved word, but because it is a seed, which if nurtured will result in the fruit of the living Word of God in our hearts.

With the word written in our hearts, we become the "epistle of Christ...written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart (2 Corinthians 3:3)."

Edited November 2, 2017 by pogi

[JLHPROF]

32 minutes ago, LittleNipper said:

I have words of Jesus' personally trained apostles and disciples. He personally spoke to them in their lifetime.  What do you have?

The truth.  But I'm done with you until you engage in good faith discussions instead of ignoring questions and witnessing.  You convince nobody and the MODs will only put up with it so long.

Sad that your belief will not allow investigation.

Edited November 2, 2017 by JLHPROF

[LittleNipper]

7 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

You're approaching this from an evangelical mindset: trying to change my beliefs to be yours.  

That is not at all what I am doing: I am approaching this from an interfaith perspective, trying to understand your beliefs just to understand them and respect you.  Every time you refuse to explain what you believe, you frustrate that process and it becomes increasingly difficult for me to respect you at all.  Would you like to directly and my questions and be understood/respected that way, or do you choose only to view me as a potential convert?

I cannot either convict or convert you? That is something only the Holy Spirit is capable of doing.  I believe that Jesus is the Messiah, because the Bible says so. Not because Martin Luther said so, John Wesley said so, Billy Sunday said so, Billy Graham said so or Jerry Falwell said so. I've explained to you that unless the Bible is accurate, there is no means to prove Jesus Christ even existed. You yourself should realize that from trying to promote the book of Mormon. Where are the landmarks, the historical figures, pagan literature from the surrounding tribes regarding these Jewish invaders?

As a Christian, I see EVERYBODY as a mission field. "Go ye unto ALL the world and preach the Good News!" Isn't that what Mormons desire? Yet you seem to regard my words as dangerous? Why exactly? I try to answer your questions, but I feel that you want some other answer that might make you feel exonerated in you own belief system somehow... My goal is not to harm you nor any of your fellow believers. If anything, if you are indeed a Christian, you should feel comfortable in what you believe and not at all threatened. If you feel threatened, how secure in your own beliefs can you possibly be?

[LittleNipper]

21 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

The truth.  But I'm done with you until you engage in good faith discussions instead of ignoring questions and witnessing.  You convince nobody and the MODs will only put up with it so long.

Sad that your belief will not allow investigation.

It would seem that you wish investigation to proceed from only YOUR direction. My belief does allow for investigation; however,  the Bible is my yardstick. It provides the perimeters for believers. 

Edited November 2, 2017 by LittleNipper

[Jane_Doe]

10 minutes ago, LittleNipper said:

I cannot either convict or convert you? That is something only the Holy Spirit is capable of doing.  I believe that Jesus is the Messiah, because the Bible says so. Not because Martin Luther said so, John Wesley said so, Billy Sunday said so, Billy Graham said so or Jerry Falwell said so. I've explained to you that unless the Bible is accurate, there is no means to prove Jesus Christ even existed. You yourself should realize that from trying to promote the book of Mormon. Where are the landmarks, the historical figures, pagan literature from the surrounding tribes regarding these Jewish invaders?

As a Christian, I see EVERYBODY as a mission field. "Go ye unto ALL the world and preach the Good News!" Isn't that what Mormons desire? Yet you seem to regard my words as dangerous? Why exactly? I try to answer your questions, but I feel that you want some other answer that might make you feel exonerated in you own belief system somehow... My goal is not to harm you nor any of your fellow believers. If anything, if you are indeed a Christian, you should feel comfortable in what you believe and not at all threatened. If you feel threatened, how secure in your own beliefs can you possibly be?

LittleNipper, I'm just trying to get you to directly answer a question.  You have once again disrespected me by blatantly ignoring my question.  Here, I will once again charitably ask again and provide two possible answers:

Question: Would you like to directly and my questions and be understood/respected that way, or do you choose only to view me as a potential convert?

Possible Answer 1: "Yes Jane, I would like to explain my beliefs to you, answer your questions about my beliefs, and have a respectful inter-faith dialogue."

Possible Answer 2: "Jane, I don't view you as a person worth respecting and actually answering your questions.  Instead your only worth to me is as a potential convert to preach at."

Please answer with a #1 or #2.  If you once again refuse to answer this question directly, I will interpret that as a complete lack of respect for me and terminate this conversation.

Edited November 2, 2017 by Jane_Doe

[LittleNipper]

29 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

Once again you have blatantly refused to answer my question.  This is disrespectful to me, frustrating, and makes it appear as if you/your faith are incapable of addressing a simple question.  Please stop, and instead treat me and your own faith with respect.  

As you mine... Jesus was once asked a question by the Pharisees and said that He would answer their question if they answered He question first. It involved John the Baptist. Do you remember their dilemma? We can speak around and around in generalities. I don't think that is what either of us desire. But the fact remains that Christian boards are very very willing to allow various beliefs and expressions of speech and even religious books which are not Christian in nature, as long as no foul language is used and the Lord's name is not used in vain and no one calls anyone else something derogatory. Mormon shouldn't expect more than that ---- but all too often it seems that they do --- for whatever reason.