Why argue the bible is infallible?

[Calm]

33 minutes ago, LittleNipper said:

The Bible does say that it will not be tampered with broken or changed.

Is not Hebrew to English a change?

[Calm]

9 hours ago, LittleNipper said:

What is scripture? If I write a biography is it scripture --- why or why not? If I make a movie, is that scripture? Is a newspaper scripture? Is the Koran scripture ---why or why not?

If God commands one to write, is it scripture?

[LittleNipper]

13 minutes ago, Calm said:

 

The difference is that Deuteronomy excludes all the texts that were written after it by your logic as that would be adding to the Word. 

Deuteronomy is the LAST BOOK of the LAW. Revelation is the Last Prophetic Message to the Church. That is my logic --- you shouldn't be telling me what I believe. I'm not supposed to do that to you  --- at least that is what you all keep telling me.

Edited November 3, 2017 by LittleNipper

[Calm]

9 hours ago, LittleNipper said:

Revelation clearly says not to add prophecy additionally to that book. Any latter revelation would be adding to the Revelation. 

And if Revelation was written earlier than another book in the NT, is that later revelation adding to the Word or not and if not, why not?

 

Edited November 3, 2017 by Calm

[LittleNipper]

3 minutes ago, Calm said:

And if Revelation was written earlier than another book in the NT, is that later revelation adding to the Word or not and if not, why not?

 

Revelation is the last written revelation from God. It is dated about 95 AD

Edited November 3, 2017 by LittleNipper

[LittleNipper]

Why is Revelation the last book in the Bible?

Because obviously it was written by the last remaining Apostle John, on the island of Patmos.
Revelation prophesys of the events surrounding the fulfillment of the final phases of God's plan; the return of Jesus Christ, Judgment Day, and the "beginning of Eternity for the Family of God" in the New Heavens and Earth.
"...God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself shall be with them, and be their God." (Rev.21:3)
"...He that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new... It is done." (verses 5-6)
The book of Revelation is in the perfect place in the Bible: Genesis speaks of the beginning of God's plan -- Revelation prophesys of its fulfillment.

Edited November 3, 2017 by LittleNipper

[Calm]

Many believe John's epistles were written later. 

https://www.biblestudytools.com/resources/guide-to-bible-study/order-books-new-testament.html

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dating_the_Bible

[JLHPROF]

51 minutes ago, LittleNipper said:

Deuteronomy is the LAST BOOK of the LAW. Revelation is the Last Prophetic Message to the Church. That is my logic --- you shouldn't be telling me what I believe. I'm not supposed to do that to you  --- at least that is what you all keep telling me.

So no more law and no more prophecy?

That doesn't preclude other forms of scripture.

[LittleNipper]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Is not Hebrew to English a change?

A translation is not the original; however, the original Hebrew and Greek are available. If a question of intent or what was the implications arises one can study the original language. I also believe that GOD does help by way of the Holy Spirit in translation of His Word ---- if those involved are in fervent prayer and not just regarding their own linguist abilities. I also feel that those who have attempted to subvert Christianity and God's word are punished.

Edited November 3, 2017 by LittleNipper

[LittleNipper]

33 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

So no more law and no more prophecy?

That doesn't preclude other forms of scripture.

I don't accept the Koran if that is what you mean.

[pogi]

32 minutes ago, LittleNipper said:

A translation is not the original; however, the original Hebrew and Greek are available. If a question of intent or what was the implications arises one can study the original language. I also believe that GOD does help by way of the Holy Spirit in translation of His Word ---- if those involved are in fervent prayer and not just regarding their own linguist abilities. I also feel that those who have attempted to subvert Christianity and God's word are punished.

Greek and Hebrew are not the original words that came out of Christ's mouth either!  Where is the preserved word of God as it was given in the original Galilean dialect of Aramaic?  How can we compare the Greek and Hebrew translation against the original language?  

[FormerLDS]

Over the past 15 years of watching these discussions, whenever someone brings up topics about biblical infallibility, the topic typically goes back and forth and on and on forever with no outcome.  

The assertion that the Bible has been corrupted and truth needs to be restored is a foundational doctrine permeating throughout the Latter-day Saint religion.  It would be just as easy for LDS Christians to accept the notion that Joseph Smith was not a prophet as it would be to accept the possibility that the Bible has been translated correctly and not corrupted. 

When I was a member It bothered me greatly that I had to side with every other "restored truth" group out there on the point that we believed the Bible to be corrupted.  I had to side with the atheists, agnostics, skeptics and even Satan worshipers to propagate my churches point of view.   But I still didn't get it.  I still believed what I believed because I had a strong testimony of the restored gospel and I "knew" that I wasn't deceived in my faith.  

I didn't change until I saw myself as someone who had everything religion could possibly offer, but I did not have eternal life.  It wasn't until I read the Word of God as if for the first time and saw that the Jesus Christ of the Bible was offering me eternal life right now if I would just place all of the faith I had in my own worthiness into Him alone and trust that He would give me His free gift of eternal life.  The moment I allowed Him to give me eternal life I started to think differently about the Bible.  About what I had been taught.  Things were completely new and different then before.  

Friends, today, I have something I never had as a member of good standing.  My religion only demonstrated how imperfect I really was (if I was honest with myself).  To Heavenly Father, ALL of my worthiness was just filthy rags and vanity - it was debt!  

What I'm trying to say is that if you don't have eternal life, you're never, ever going to be able to see the truth until you are first born again into the Family of God through belief in Jesus Christ alone.      

[Jane_Doe]

3 hours ago, LittleNipper said:

I'll repeat in my own words. One needs to read and one will be saved by the truth and not by that which is deceptive. I know people who have been saved by only reading the Gospels. I know of another who was saved by reading Romans. I may also add that my father was saved using his Catholic Bible but now owns an NIV version  without an Apocrypha because he has been inspired to understand that they are not inspired being entirely unnecessary to the epic of Christ and His redeeming power.

 

I'm not asking about saving power.  This thread is about Biblical infallibility.  Hence my question: how can you have multiple Bibles which are all supposedly uncorrupted and infallible, but have different books?  

[Jane_Doe]

21 hours ago, Jane_Doe said:

Please actually answer my question:

What if I'm holding a Catholic Bible?  Is that the perfectly preserved word of God?  Using only the Bible, where does it say which Bible am I supposed to use?

Bumping up my question for @FormerLDS

I'm not here trying to change anyone's views or "prove" anything.  That ain't going and to happen and it's not my place anyways.  I'm just trying to understand different perspectives and this is an important question for me when understanding infallible-Bible-faiths, but it seems like actually getting this question answered is beyond pulling teeth.  I'm really not trying to be difficult, I'm just a person trying to seek answers and understand.

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, LittleNipper said:

I don't accept the Koran if that is what you mean.

It's not.  Most of the NT is neither prophecy or law and is therefore not subject to the Deut and Revelation "do not add" clause.
Deut says no adding to the law.  Revelation says no adding to this prophecy.  That is a very small amount of the Bible.

None of the Pauline epistles for instance are part of the law or prophecy.  Neither are the gospels.

 

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, FormerLDS said:

Over the past 15 years of watching these discussions, whenever someone brings up topics about biblical infallibility, the topic typically goes back and forth and on and on forever with no outcome.  

The assertion that the Bible has been corrupted and truth needs to be restored is a foundational doctrine permeating throughout the Latter-day Saint religion.  It would be just as easy for LDS Christians to accept the notion that Joseph Smith was not a prophet as it would be to accept the possibility that the Bible has been translated correctly and not corrupted. 

When I was a member It bothered me greatly that I had to side with every other "restored truth" group out there on the point that we believed the Bible to be corrupted.  I had to side with the atheists, agnostics, skeptics and even Satan worshipers to propagate my churches point of view.   But I still didn't get it.  I still believed what I believed because I had a strong testimony of the restored gospel and I "knew" that I wasn't deceived in my faith.  

I didn't change until I saw myself as someone who had everything religion could possibly offer, but I did not have eternal life.  It wasn't until I read the Word of God as if for the first time and saw that the Jesus Christ of the Bible was offering me eternal life right now if I would just place all of the faith I had in my own worthiness into Him alone and trust that He would give me His free gift of eternal life.  The moment I allowed Him to give me eternal life I started to think differently about the Bible.  About what I had been taught.  Things were completely new and different then before.  

Friends, today, I have something I never had as a member of good standing.  My religion only demonstrated how imperfect I really was (if I was honest with myself).  To Heavenly Father, ALL of my worthiness was just filthy rags and vanity - it was debt!  

What I'm trying to say is that if you don't have eternal life, you're never, ever going to be able to see the truth until you are first born again into the Family of God through belief in Jesus Christ alone.      

This is a great demonstration of the principles taught in Alma 32 and in Moroni 10.

Thanks for your testimony of our church's methodology.

I don't disagree with anything here. Christ is within us, and takes away our sins and teaches all at our own level. The minute we get that, everything changes.

The terminology is different, but this is a very Mormon statement at it's most fundamental level. And of course what you say applies to all the standard works. What matters most is that we liken the scriptures to ourselves and understand them internally.

Edited November 3, 2017 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Jane_Doe said:

Bumping up my question for @FormerLDS

I'm not here trying to change anyone's views or "prove" anything.  That ain't going and to happen and it's not my place anyways.  I'm just trying to understand different perspectives and this is an important question for me when understanding infallible-Bible-faiths, but it seems like actually getting this question answered is beyond pulling teeth.  I'm really not trying to be difficult, I'm just a person trying to seek answers and understand.

An excellent question upon which all this hinges. This is the heart of the issue.

[thesometimesaint]

4 hours ago, LittleNipper said:

The Bible does say that it will not be tampered with broken or changed.

No it doesn't.

Deuteronomy 4:2 “You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take anything from it”(also Deuteronomy 12:32). The reason God is so adamant on this is because “The entirety of Your word is truth” (Psalms 119: 160).

"Add thou not unto His words, lest He reprove thee, and thou be found a liar" Proverbs 30:6.

For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
Revelation 22:18

The Bible doesn't reference itself. It is a collection of books.

[pogi]

2 hours ago, FormerLDS said:

What I'm trying to say is that if you don't have eternal life, you're never, ever going to be able to see the truth until you are first born again into the Family of God through belief in Jesus Christ alone.      

Yes, that is what it is all about, isn't it...belief in Jesus Christ alone?  Not a belief in the Bible, not the Book of Mormon, not the prophets, etc. etc. etc. None of those things can save us.  Those are only catalysts, or seeds, to the pure word which is in Christ alone - the living Word of God.  

I will repeat here what I said before:

"The Bible is only a catalyst to the Word, it is not the pure word of God (which can only be written on the fleshy tablets of the heart).  The Word of God cannot be captured or preserved with pen or paper.  The Bible is man's version of God's word.  It is only an approximation - a symbol of something divine, which words cannot capture.  Man's language is corrupt, God's word is undefiled by man's tongue.  It is not of this world.  The Bible has value, not because it is perfect and contains God's preserved word, but because it is a seed, which if nurtured will result in the fruit of the living Word of God in our hearts.

With the word written in our hearts, we become the "epistle of Christ...written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart (2 Corinthians 3:3)."

Where do we find the epistles of Christ which have been preserved from generation to generation in their purity, untouched by man's corrupt tongue and imperfect interpretations?  The Bible?  No, no, no...the pure Word of God can only be experienced in our hearts as we become the epistles of Christ.  

 

Edited November 3, 2017 by pogi

[mfbukowski]

51 minutes ago, pogi said:

Yes, that is what it is all about, isn't it...belief in Jesus Christ alone?  Not a belief in the Bible, not the Book of Mormon, not the prophets, etc. etc. etc. None of those things can save us.  Those are only catalysts, or seeds, to the pure word which is in Christ alone - the living Word of God.  

I will repeat here what I said before:

"The Bible is only a catalyst to the Word, it is not the pure word of God (which can only be written on the fleshy tablets of the heart).  The Word of God cannot be captured or preserved with pen or paper.  The Bible is man's version of God's word.  It is only an approximation - a symbol of something divine, which words cannot capture.  Man's language is corrupt, God's word is undefiled by man's tongue.  It is not of this world.  The Bible has value, not because it is perfect and contains God's preserved word, but because it is a seed, which if nurtured will result in the fruit of the living Word of God in our hearts.

With the word written in our hearts, we become the "epistle of Christ...written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart (2 Corinthians 3:3)."

Where do we find the epistles of Christ which have been preserved from generation to generation in their purity, untouched by man's corrupt tongue and imperfect interpretations?  The Bible?  No, no, no...the pure Word of God can only be experienced in our hearts as we become the epistles of Christ.  

 

Brilliant and perfectly on point!

And for fundamentalists, remember all our languages were confounded at Babel.

All human languages are corrupt to convey God's truth.

It must be in your heart.

Edited November 3, 2017 by mfbukowski

[FormerLDS]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

Yes, that is what it is all about, isn't it...belief in Jesus Christ alone?  Not a belief in the Bible, not the Book of Mormon, not the prophets, etc. etc. etc. None of those things can save us.  Those are only catalysts, or seeds, to the pure word which is in Christ alone - the living Word of God.  

I will repeat here what I said before:

"The Bible is only a catalyst to the Word, it is not the pure word of God (which can only be written on the fleshy tablets of the heart).  The Word of God cannot be captured or preserved with pen or paper.  The Bible is man's version of God's word.  It is only an approximation - a symbol of something divine, which words cannot capture.  Man's language is corrupt, God's word is undefiled by man's tongue.  It is not of this world.  The Bible has value, not because it is perfect and contains God's preserved word, but because it is a seed, which if nurtured will result in the fruit of the living Word of God in our hearts.

With the word written in our hearts, we become the "epistle of Christ...written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart (2 Corinthians 3:3)."

Where do we find the epistles of Christ which have been preserved from generation to generation in their purity, untouched by man's corrupt tongue and imperfect interpretations?  The Bible?  No, no, no...the pure Word of God can only be experienced in our hearts as we become the epistles of Christ.  

 

Col Sherman T Potter said it best when he said: "Horse Hockey!"

The true and living God of the Bible would never, ever ask us to trust in a feeling from something He has already condemned as "deceitful above all things and desperately wicked."

Little wonder the Bible never equates a feeling in the heart with a test of truth.

[thesometimesaint]

35 minutes ago, FormerLDS said:

Col Sherman T Potter said it best when he said: "Horse Hockey!"

The true and living God of the Bible would never, ever ask us to trust in a feeling from something He has already condemned as "deceitful above all things and desperately wicked."

Little wonder the Bible never equates a feeling in the heart with a test of truth.

Incorrect.

And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?
Luke 24:32

[pogi]

29 minutes ago, FormerLDS said:

Col Sherman T Potter said it best when he said: "Horse Hockey!"

The true and living God of the Bible would never, ever ask us to trust in a feeling from something He has already condemned as "deceitful above all things and desperately wicked."

Little wonder the Bible never equates a feeling in the heart with a test of truth.

FormerLDS, not all hearts are deceitful and desperately wicked.  To understand the role of the heart of man with the Word of God, belief, faith, understanding, conversion, and salvation, it would be good to not take a scripture out of context of the whole of scripture. 

Quote

As in water face reflects face, so the heart of man reflects the man. Proverbs 27:19 

How are you converted/saved if you have not received a new heart?  

Quote

And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.  (Ezekiel 36:26 ESV)

Quote

Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. (Hebrews 10:22)

Yes we can read the bible with our eyes and hear the word of God with our ears, but true understanding and conversion is not of the mind, but of the heart.  Think of the parable of the sower.  Are you claiming that there is no such thing as "good soil" aka "good heart".

If you trust not your heart to be good, then you have reason to fear indeed, because only the pure of heart can see God.

Are you going to trust in your own understanding over your heart that trusts in God? 

Quote

Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make straight your paths. Proverbs 3:5-6 

How can your "deceitful above all things" and "desperately wicked" heart lead to salvation through confessing with your mouth and believing with your heart..."

Quote

Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.  Romans 10:9-10

How can one confess with his mouth that Jesus is the Christ except it comes from the heart?

Quote

But what comes out of the mouth proceeds from the heart... Matthew 15:18 

Quote

The good person out of the good treasure of his heart produces good, and the evil person out of his evil treasure produces evil, for out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks. Luke 6:45 

Proverbs 4:23

Quote

Keep your heart with all vigilance, for from it flow the springs of life. Proverbs 4:23

And just who is the spring of living water?

Quote

He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.'  John 7:38-39

If you reject your heart, how can your treasure be Jesus Christ?

Quote

For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. Matthew 6:21

What is the greatest commandment of all time?  Love the Lord God with all your...?

How are we to seek the Lord?  With our whole...?  Psalms 119:10

Quote

Every way of a man is right in his own eyes, but the Lord weighs the heart. Proverbs 21:2 

Why does he look on the heart?

Because the Word of God is not static on a piece of paper and ink.  No, no..."the Word of God is living and active (Hebrews 4:12)" and resides in the fleshy tablets of our hearts.

 

[mfbukowski]

 

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Edited November 3, 2017 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

8 hours ago, FormerLDS said:

I didn't change until I saw myself as someone who had everything religion could possibly offer, but I did not have eternal life.  It wasn't until I read the Word of God as if for the first time and saw that the Jesus Christ of the Bible was offering me eternal life right now if I would just place all of the faith I had in my own worthiness into Him alone and trust that He would give me His free gift of eternal life.  The moment I allowed Him to give me eternal life I started to think differently about the Bible.  About what I had been taught.  Things were completely new and different then before.  ....

What I'm trying to say is that if you don't have eternal life, you're never, ever going to be able to see the truth until you are first born again into the Family of God through belief in Jesus Christ alone.      

And how did this change come if not in your HEART???