Bobbieaware Posted November 1, 2017 Posted November 1, 2017 (edited) 3 hours ago, JLHPROF said: If that is all that is needed to gain salvation I am pretty sure most members of the LDS Church have done this. I know I have. We Latter-Day Saints and our Evangelical critics have been talking past each other and unnecessarily bashing for years because we often conflate the term exaltation with the state of being merely saved. As I said in an earlier post on this thread, members of the LDS Church who are not valiant in the faith will be saved in the terrestrial kingdom of glory, and even the desperately wicked and rebellious who bow the knee and are converted to Christ in the spirit prison will also be heirs of salvation. Meanwhile, many of the Evangelical persuasion freely acknowledge that beyond merely being saved there are a treasure trove of heavenly rewards awaiting those who are extraordinarily faithful and valiant. So we basically believe the same thing but because of differening terminology we have been fighting unnecessarily for years. Really sad. Edited November 1, 2017 by Bobbieaware 4
Jane_Doe Posted November 1, 2017 Posted November 1, 2017 (edited) 3 hours ago, LittleNipper said: They made the choice and GOD holds them to it. The simple fact is that GOD in this life divides the wheat from the chaff in this life. It doesn't continue into the next. Heaven is not filled with lost souls but eternally redeemed ones. Again, where is choice here? Do you chain those you love? Edited November 1, 2017 by Jane_Doe 2
Jane_Doe Posted November 1, 2017 Posted November 1, 2017 3 hours ago, LittleNipper said: There are not huge numbers of people who walk away from GOD but likely religion. I do believe in such cases where an individual decides to try to reject GOD later in life, finds that GOD will not let go and that life becomes miserable or worse yet shortened for the eternal good of that individual. I believe this is the point of the story of the prodigal son. And of course Salvation being truly a personal pact between God and the individual, it is not for you or I to say all such individuals who say they found GOD actually did. That is between them and God. Again, you're playing the "those people weren't REALLY saved, but I am" card. Despite many of these people were in the pews loving God just the same as you. 3 hours ago, LittleNipper said: I do believe in such cases where an individual decides to try to reject GOD later in life, finds that GOD will not let go and that life becomes miserable or worse yet shortened for the eternal good of that individual. I believe this is the point of the story of the prodigal son. Time out: you believe God KILLS people "for there own good"??!?!??! I'm sorry, but NOOOO!!!! That's disgusting. And that you're trying to use a story about such wonderful love as the prodigal son to justify this horror-- wow-- that's horrendous and completely foreign to the Bible. I'm just... please--- is this is NOT your theology, please cleans cleanse correct this.
thesometimesaint Posted November 1, 2017 Posted November 1, 2017 4 hours ago, LittleNipper said: It is kind of like the abortion issue. Some argue that to take away abortion is to take away an individual's choice; however, the reality is that a choice at engaging in sex was indeed made already and the pregnancy is the result of such a choice. You really don't know what the heck you're talking about.
The Nehor Posted November 1, 2017 Posted November 1, 2017 1 hour ago, Jane_Doe said: Again, you're playing the "those people weren't REALLY saved, but I am" card. Despite many of these people were in the pews loving God just the same as you. Time out: you believe God KILLS people "for there own good"??!?!??! I'm sorry, but NOOOO!!!! That's disgusting. And that you're trying to use a story about such wonderful love as the prodigal son to justify this horror-- wow-- that's horrendous and completely foreign to the Bible. I'm just... please--- is this is NOT your theology, please cleans cleanse correct this. Be careful there. Brigham Young taught a very similar concept. 1
thesometimesaint Posted November 1, 2017 Posted November 1, 2017 36 minutes ago, The Nehor said: Be careful there. Brigham Young taught a very similar concept. God can take care of himself. I'm more concerned with we mortals do.
FormerLDS Posted November 1, 2017 Posted November 1, 2017 4 hours ago, Bobbieaware said: We Latter-Day Saints and our Evangelical critics have been talking past each other and unnecessarily bashing for years because we often conflate the term exaltation with the state of being merely saved. As I said in an earlier post on this thread, members of the LDS Church who are not valiant in the faith will be saved in the terrestrial kingdom of glory, and even the desperately wicked and rebellious who bow the knee and are converted to Christ in the spirit prison will also be heirs of salvation. Meanwhile, many of the Evangelical persuasion freely acknowledge that beyond merely being saved there are a treasure trove of heavenly rewards awaiting those who are extraordinarily faithful and valiant. So we basically believe the same thing but because of differening terminology we have been fighting unnecessarily for years. Really sad. Because there are at least 5 different meanings of the word "salvation" in LDS theology, it is best to use the term "eternal life" vs "salvation". LDS and evangelicals alike only have one definition of "eternal life"; Eternal Life is the highest form of salvation. Which brings us back to the intent of this discussion "Why argue the Bible is infallible?" Because the God of the Bible is infallible. His plan of redemption is infallible. His Son and His gift of eternal life is infallible. From Day 1 in the Garden of Eden, Satan's plan first required the belief that God's word could not be trusted. The same is true today; Satan would have everyone believe that God's word requires correction, new revelations and is otherwise fallible.
Jane_Doe Posted November 1, 2017 Posted November 1, 2017 5 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: Which brings us back to the intent of this discussion "Why argue the Bible is infallible?" Because the God of the Bible is infallible. None of that equates to the *men* that wrote the Bible being perfect/infallible, or the men that compiled it, or the men that translated, or the men that are currently reading it. 1
JLHPROF Posted November 1, 2017 Posted November 1, 2017 (edited) 8 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: Because there are at least 5 different meanings of the word "salvation" in LDS theology, it is best to use the term "eternal life" vs "salvation". LDS and evangelicals alike only have one definition of "eternal life"; Eternal Life is the highest form of salvation. No, actually. Eternal life is the most basic form of salvation. Immortality. Resurrection. Redemption from death and the grave. Given by Christ to ALL (except perdition). Eternal lives is the highest form of salvation. Quote Which brings us back to the intent of this discussion "Why argue the Bible is infallible?" Because the God of the Bible is infallible. His plan of redemption is infallible. His Son and His gift of eternal life is infallible. From Day 1 in the Garden of Eden, Satan's plan first required the belief that God's word could not be trusted. The same is true today; Satan would have everyone believe that God's word requires correction, new revelations and is otherwise fallible. The issue isn't correction, or fallibility. It's the false idea that God is done speaking. Edited November 1, 2017 by JLHPROF 2
FormerLDS Posted November 1, 2017 Posted November 1, 2017 1 hour ago, Jane_Doe said: None of that equates to the *men* that wrote the Bible being perfect/infallible, or the men that compiled it, or the men that translated, or the men that are currently reading it. Heavenly Father promised us that He would keep His word pure. No man is capable of changing that. 1
FormerLDS Posted November 1, 2017 Posted November 1, 2017 1 hour ago, JLHPROF said: No, actually. Eternal life is the most basic form of salvation. Immortality. Resurrection. Redemption from death and the grave. Given by Christ to ALL (except perdition). Eternal lives is the highest form of salvation. The issue isn't correction, or fallibility. It's the false idea that God is done speaking. You're way off. Perhaps you missed that lesson in Gospel Principles class? Regardless, you really should look up LDS "Eternal Life", so you have a better understanding of LDS theology...
JLHPROF Posted November 1, 2017 Posted November 1, 2017 1 minute ago, FormerLDS said: You're way off. Perhaps you missed that lesson in Gospel Principles class? Regardless, you really should look up LDS "Eternal Life", so you have a better understanding of LDS theology... Oh I know what you are saying "eternal life is the life that God lives" or something like that in the exaltation chapter. True enough at a basic level, but eternal lives is a better description of the highest salvation based on D&C 131, 132, the temple, and other prophetic teachings on exaltation.
Jane_Doe Posted November 1, 2017 Posted November 1, 2017 17 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: Heavenly Father promised us that He would keep His word pure. No man is capable of changing that. CFR.
Gray Posted November 1, 2017 Posted November 1, 2017 31 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: Heavenly Father promised us that He would keep His word pure. No man is capable of changing that. I don't think He did, an in any case, the word of God in the Bible is identified as Jesus - not the Bible. 4
Bobbieaware Posted November 1, 2017 Posted November 1, 2017 2 hours ago, FormerLDS said: Because there are at least 5 different meanings of the word "salvation" in LDS theology, it is best to use the term "eternal life" vs "salvation". LDS and evangelicals alike only have one definition of "eternal life"; Eternal Life is the highest form of salvation. Which brings us back to the intent of this discussion "Why argue the Bible is infallible?" Because the God of the Bible is infallible. His plan of redemption is infallible. His Son and His gift of eternal life is infallible. From Day 1 in the Garden of Eden, Satan's plan first required the belief that God's word could not be trusted. The same is true today; Satan would have everyone believe that God's word requires correction, new revelations and is otherwise fallible. Since it’s apparent you believe the Bible is an inerrant and perfect guide into all truth, I would very much appreciate it if you could demonstrate how the Bible’s inerrancy provides for a perfect understanding of the will of God and all his eternal truths by answering the following simple and straight forward question: All you need to do is tell me what infallible and perfect truths the Bible is communicating to us in the following three verses from Paul’s first epistle to the church at Corinth? 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. 29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?
LittleNipper Posted November 2, 2017 Posted November 2, 2017 10 hours ago, Jane_Doe said: Again, you're playing the "those people weren't REALLY saved, but I am" card. Despite many of these people were in the pews loving God just the same as you. Time out: you believe God KILLS people "for there own good"??!?!??! I'm sorry, but NOOOO!!!! That's disgusting. And that you're trying to use a story about such wonderful love as the prodigal son to justify this horror-- wow-- that's horrendous and completely foreign to the Bible. I'm just... please--- is this is NOT your theology, please cleans cleanse correct this. I Corinthians 11:26-32 26 The Lord meant that when you eat this bread and drink from this cup, you tell about his death until he comes. 27 But if you eat the bread and drink the wine in a way that isn’t worthy of the Lord, you sin against his body and blood. 28 That’s why you must examine the way you eat and drink. 29 If you fail to understand that you are the body of the Lord, you will condemn yourselves by the way you eat and drink. 30 That’s why many of you are sick and weak and why a lot of others have died. 31 If we carefully judge ourselves, we won’t be punished. 32 But when the Lord judges and punishes us, he does it to keep us from being condemned with the rest of the world.
LittleNipper Posted November 2, 2017 Posted November 2, 2017 9 hours ago, thesometimesaint said: You really don't know what the heck you're talking about. One either is or is not a saint. An individual cannot be a saint sometimes. Perhaps you don't know what you are talking about.
Jane_Doe Posted November 2, 2017 Posted November 2, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, LittleNipper said: I Corinthians 11:26-32 26 The Lord meant that when you eat this bread and drink from this cup, you tell about his death until he comes. 27 But if you eat the bread and drink the wine in a way that isn’t worthy of the Lord, you sin against his body and blood. 28 That’s why you must examine the way you eat and drink. 29 If you fail to understand that you are the body of the Lord, you will condemn yourselves by the way you eat and drink. 30 That’s why many of you are sick and weak and why a lot of others have died. 31 If we carefully judge ourselves, we won’t be punished. 32 But when the Lord judges and punishes us, he does it to keep us from being condemned with the rest of the world. Your twisting of scripture is... I'm sorry, but I'm very much struggling to be respectful of your right to believe as you believe here. I just find your interoperation to be so at odd with the Bible and >99% of Christianity. God does not kill people nor does He chain them, and yet you seem to believe that's exactly what he does. Am I misunderstanding your beliefs here? Edited November 2, 2017 by Jane_Doe
thesometimesaint Posted November 2, 2017 Posted November 2, 2017 2 hours ago, LittleNipper said: One either is or is not a saint. An individual cannot be a saint sometimes. Perhaps you don't know what you are talking about. I don't claim to always be a Saint, for that I need repentance to change what I do. Unlike you you just believe. What separates you from what the Devils do?
LittleNipper Posted November 2, 2017 Posted November 2, 2017 9 hours ago, Jane_Doe said: Your twisting of scripture is... I'm sorry, but I'm very much struggling to be respectful of your right to believe as you believe here. I just find your interoperation to be so at odd with the Bible and >99% of Christianity. God does not kill people nor does He chain them, and yet you seem to believe that's exactly what he does. Am I misunderstanding your beliefs here? 9 hours ago, Jane_Doe said: Your twisting of scripture is... I'm sorry, but I'm very much struggling to be respectful of your right to believe as you believe here. I just find your interoperation to be so at odd with the Bible and >99% of Christianity. God does not kill people nor does He chain them, and yet you seem to believe that's exactly what he does. Am I misunderstanding your beliefs here? I said nothing. I merely copied and pasted a portion of scripture. I do believe that GOD has given people over to the devil on more than one occasion.
LittleNipper Posted November 2, 2017 Posted November 2, 2017 (edited) 7 hours ago, thesometimesaint said: I don't claim to always be a Saint, for that I need repentance to change what I do. Unlike you you just believe. What separates you from what the Devils do? I'm saved and the devils simply know that Jesus is the the Christ!. They cannot be saved. And the fact that I'm saved makes me a Saint! If one is saved ---- meaning an adopted child of God --- one is a saint. Saints are saved but not perfect until they die and move on to heaven. Edited November 2, 2017 by LittleNipper
LittleNipper Posted November 2, 2017 Posted November 2, 2017 (edited) 5 minutes ago, LittleNipper said: I'm saved and the devils simply know that Jesus is the the Christ!. They cannot be saved. ! Edited November 2, 2017 by LittleNipper
Jane_Doe Posted November 2, 2017 Posted November 2, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, LittleNipper said: I said nothing. I merely copied and pasted a portion of scripture. I do believe that GOD has given people over to the devil on more than one occasion. It would be much better if you could claim your beliefs and openly say "I believe X based upon versus Y." Belief is something to claim and be proud of, not hide. Right now your communication method is... it comes across as you not wanting to admit what you believe and instead hiding behind verses and the air of "if you don't agree with what I'm implying about what I think this verse says but don't have the courage to say, you're Hellhound". I'm guessing that's not the impression you want to convey. Edited November 2, 2017 by Jane_Doe 1
FormerLDS Posted November 2, 2017 Posted November 2, 2017 18 hours ago, Jane_Doe said: CFR. Sorry, guess I'm just behind the times, but what does "CFR" mean? "Code of Federal Regulations", "Cost and Freight" and "Chicken Fried Rice" just don't seem right...
Jane_Doe Posted November 2, 2017 Posted November 2, 2017 1 minute ago, FormerLDS said: Sorry, guess I'm just behind the times, but what does "CFR" mean? Call For Reference.
Recommended Posts