The Nehor Posted October 27, 2017 Posted October 27, 2017 (edited) 5 hours ago, LittleNipper said: I'm so glad you find this so hilarious. This is the major reason I find most Mormon literature fraudulent. It would seem the last laugh maybe on you You find our literature fraudulent because I laughed at you? Huh....that seems.....insane. The last laugh might be on me and if so I intend to laugh along. Edited October 27, 2017 by The Nehor
thesometimesaint Posted October 27, 2017 Posted October 27, 2017 I don't find religion something enough to laugh at, but some of the claims by its practitioners are good to laugh at.
Guest Posted October 28, 2017 Posted October 28, 2017 On October 24, 2017 at 11:31 AM, bluebell said: Where is the teaching found that says that the bible is infallible? I've always wondered where that idea comes from. Some believe or teach that this (infallibility) means, only as it applies to doctrine and issues of salvation, which is true. Others believe it means that there is no error of any kind, believing that the creation took place over six, twenty four hour periods, that the earth is only 6,000-7,000 years old. They believe that Noah's Ark, housed pre-historic animals. In fact they believe that the entire universe is the same age as they believe the earth to be. This is called being a "young-earthier". Some even believe "still" as others did in the early Church, that the entire universe, revolves around the earth. Meaning that th earth is the center of all creation. I once asked a friend of mine, who was my friend for twenty five years, even though he was very anti-Mormon the question of how God lengthened out the day (making the earth stand still), that most certainly he lengthened out the day, by some heavenly means as maybe a star or some other means. I explained to him that if the earth just stopped in it's tracts, all that is on it would fly off the earth into space.
LittleNipper Posted October 28, 2017 Posted October 28, 2017 (edited) 9 hours ago, The Nehor said: You find our literature fraudulent because I laughed at you? Huh....that seems.....insane. The last laugh might be on me and if so I intend to laugh along. I find it fraudulent because it runs contrary to the nature of GOD as revealed in the Bible. There is a GOD ordered Hebrew murder, there is unpunished faked Identity, there is a contrived Tower of Babel dialogue between man and God. There are portions written seemingly to appease other humans and not directed by GOD. None of the characters have any ancestral relationship to Jesus. And while indeed the Jews were scattered across the planet on account of their unfaithfulness --- there still exists landmarks, collaborating evidence in Rome, Egypt, and Mesopotamia and archaeological finds appear to this day. However, in the case of these New Worlders, nothing remains, nothing matches, native historic data does not collaborate. Even Noah's Flood offers more clues than does the book of Mormon. Edited October 28, 2017 by LittleNipper
LittleNipper Posted October 28, 2017 Posted October 28, 2017 (edited) 14 hours ago, Gray said: Where did Jesus first appear to the apostles after his resurrection? Where did Mary and Joseph go next after Jesus' birth? After the birth of Jesus Mary and Joseph remained in Bethlehem until the Magi arrived (possibly a tear or more) and then they fled to Egypt because of an angelic warning. Jesus appeared to various apostles at different times. Thomas missed one appearance. Edited October 28, 2017 by LittleNipper
LittleNipper Posted October 28, 2017 Posted October 28, 2017 9 hours ago, pogi said: Irrelevant to the topic at hand. The topic at hand is this: is there a book that is over 2000 years old that has survived disagreements, wars, etc. etc. besides the Bible. Ok, so if you are right, the Bible might be as old as the Shruti. That doesn't help your argument one iota. Do you even remember your argument (Gray is right, you like to change the goal post a lot)? This is what you said: Again, the Shruti meets all of the qualifications that you asked for, and should therefore be considered the word of God according to your criteria. You said that if one exists then you would "like to read it", remember? It is claimed to be of divine origin with no author. Estimated around 800 BCE, whereas the Dead Sea Scrolls are estimated around 150 BCE. You lose! Apparently your criteria for believing the Bible should cause you to believe that Hindu scripture is divine as well. The Bible was written by GOD through man. The Shruti was written by GOD? What kind of ink and pen did GOD use?
The Nehor Posted October 28, 2017 Posted October 28, 2017 1 hour ago, LittleNipper said: I find it fraudulent because it runs contrary to the nature of GOD as revealed in the Bible. That sounds damning. 1 hour ago, LittleNipper said: There is a GOD ordered Hebrew murder, Wow, good thing God never ordered murder. Well, there was that time Joshua had to kill the guy who was taking spoils, the time the Levites went through the camp of Israel and killed the blaspheming Israelites, and.....wow.....are you sure that is against the God of the Bible? 1 hour ago, LittleNipper said: there is unpunished faked Identity, Leah seemed to get away with it though I admit I would pay good money to see Jacob's reaction that morning when he found the wrong sister lying next to him. 1 hour ago, LittleNipper said: there is a contrived Tower of Babel dialogue between man and God. You mean the Brother of Jared praying that God would protect him and his friends and lead them to a good place? How monstrously unbiblical. I mean the Bible never has God speaking to men and guiding them to a promised land. Wait...Moses who? 1 hour ago, LittleNipper said: There are portions written seemingly to appease other humans and not directed by GOD. Did they appease you somehow? 1 hour ago, LittleNipper said: None of the characters have any ancestral relationship to Jesus. I assume then that you ignore all those heretical biblical books that do not contain the ancestors of Jesus like Job, Jonah, and Esther? 1 hour ago, LittleNipper said: And while indeed the Jews were scattered across the planet on account of their unfaithfulness --- there still exists landmarks, collaborating evidence in Rome, Egypt, and Mesopotamia and archaeological finds appear to this day. That establish that some things mentioned in the Bible exist. Most of the Biblical stories are not suitably substantiated. You can find similar evidence for the Book of Mormon in that tent-dwelling Native Americans lived there (called Lamanites). By your standard that is a bullseye proving the Book of Mormon true. 1 hour ago, LittleNipper said: However, in the case of these New Worlders, nothing remains, nothing matches, native historic data does not collaborate. We do not know where to look. By this standard the flood story is false because we do not know where the ark landed and we have not found its remains. 1 hour ago, LittleNipper said: Even Noah's Flood offers more clues than does the book of Mormon. Yeah, all that evidence piling up that the earth's landmasses were completely depopulated and that everything can be traced back to one family and a breeding pair of animals within the last 7,000 years. No, at best the flood has the same amount of clues. i.e. not many or any. 51 minutes ago, LittleNipper said: The Bible was written by GOD through man. The Shruti was written by GOD? What kind of ink and pen did GOD use? What kind of ink and pen did Moses use or are you equally ignorant? 4
LittleNipper Posted October 28, 2017 Posted October 28, 2017 (edited) 7 hours ago, The Nehor said: That sounds damning. Wow, good thing God never ordered murder. Well, there was that time Joshua had to kill the guy who was taking spoils, the time the Levites went through the camp of Israel and killed the blaspheming Israelites, and.....wow.....are you sure that is against the God of the Bible? Leah seemed to get away with it though I admit I would pay good money to see Jacob's reaction that morning when he found the wrong sister lying next to him. You mean the Brother of Jared praying that God would protect him and his friends and lead them to a good place? How monstrously unbiblical. I mean the Bible never has God speaking to men and guiding them to a promised land. Wait...Moses who? Did they appease you somehow? I assume then that you ignore all those heretical biblical books that do not contain the ancestors of Jesus like Job, Jonah, and Esther? That establish that some things mentioned in the Bible exist. Most of the Biblical stories are not suitably substantiated. You can find similar evidence for the Book of Mormon in that tent-dwelling Native Americans lived there (called Lamanites). By your standard that is a bullseye proving the Book of Mormon true. We do not know where to look. By this standard the flood story is false because we do not know where the ark landed and we have not found its remains. Yeah, all that evidence piling up that the earth's landmasses were completely depopulated and that everything can be traced back to one family and a breeding pair of animals within the last 7,000 years. No, at best the flood has the same amount of clues. i.e. not many or any. What kind of ink and pen did Moses use or are you equally ignorant? I never said that the Bible was not the product of God speaking to humanity through men. The Sruti is claimed by its adherents to be written by GOD alone or so it's been said. The written text is only 500 years old. and ORAL TRADITION is claimed for thousands of years... It's funny that the Old Testament has 2000 year old text and claims an even older oral tradition by its adherents, but people want to discount that. I may read the Sruti one day but I'm saved via the Savior predicted by the Old Testament and not by my perfect life or through flagellation. You want to equate the murder of a drunk possessing a family genealogy (rightly his) with the execution of a convicted thief (warned by GOD) who caused the death of many Israelites! SORRY, but American natives have been found to have no Hebrew DNA. I do claim fossils (footprints, bones and tree trunks --- among other things) and the mountain is known regarding the Flood. and there is an ancient tradition for sighting of the Ark and also worldwide stores from every corner of the world about a horrific Flood that killed humanity and covered all the earth except for one family. So the Flood story isn't simply a Bible story. It has an ancient oral tradition. However, the Bible presents the facts and not distortion. Jonah was a missionary (willfully or not). The 1st recorded one. That is the point of the story. It shows that GOD may take mercy even on a pagan culture where man (in this case Jonah) might disagree but cry over a killed plant. Job illustrates a godly man living in a sinful world. His friends assume that Job must be at fault when in fact Job is not --- bad things can and do happen to good people ---get over it. Esther saved the nation of Israel. Without the nation of Israel there would be no Messiah because the chain of biblical prophecy would have been broken. Edited October 28, 2017 by LittleNipper
Popular Post Meerkat Posted October 28, 2017 Popular Post Posted October 28, 2017 On 10/24/2017 at 12:40 PM, FormerLDS said: Additional revelations contradict the Bible and the gospel already given. They present a "God" who changes his mind, apparently cannot do what he says he will do. Additional revelations always change the free gift of God into a path of worthy behavior that eventually leads one to eternal life only after mortality. Maybe someone else here has pointed out that God can change His mind, as He did for Ninevah. Regarding free Grace, there is a condition. It is repentance. This is the LDS view of repentance: "Repentance is more than simply acknowledging wrongdoungs. It is a change of mind and heart. It includes turning away from sin and turning to God for forgiveness. It is motivated by love for God and the sincere desire to obey His commandments." Is there another definition of repentance that does not involve a change of behavior, turning from our old sinful ways? My non LDS Christian friends like to quote Ephesians 2: which says " For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." I don't know why they stop there, rather than include the next verse, which clarifies the very purpose of Grace: "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." Becoming a disciple of Christ involves discipline. It involves a change of behavior. I am puzzled by the concept of a free Grace that involves no more than belief and ignores the rest of scriptural context such as 2 Peter 2:20-22, which states "For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire." Or from James 2: "17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. 18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works." I don't understand why these scriptures are ignored or minimized for the sake of an easy Grace. I think ignoring the importance of actually repenting and doing good works puts a person at great risk. 5
Meerkat Posted October 28, 2017 Posted October 28, 2017 (edited) On 10/26/2017 at 5:06 PM, LittleNipper said: One must be born of the spirit to be saved. You must be born again. Here is but one example of the doctrine that was taught to God's children anciently on the American continent: "10 And now I ask of you on what conditions are they saved? Yea, what grounds had they to hope for salvation? What is the cause of their being loosed from the bands of death, yea, and also the chains of hell? 11 Behold, I can tell you—did not my father Alma believe in the words which were delivered by the mouth of Abinadi? And was he not a holy prophet? Did he not speak the words of God, and my father Alma believe them? 12 And according to his faith there was a mighty change wrought in his heart. Behold I say unto you that this is all true. 13 And behold, he preached the word unto your fathers, and a mighty change was also wrought in their hearts, and they humbled themselves and put their trust in the true and living God. And behold, they were faithful until the end; therefore they were saved. 14 And now behold, I ask of you, my brethren of the church, have ye spiritually been born of God? Have ye received his image in your countenances? Have ye experienced this mighty change in your hearts? 15 Do ye exercise faith in the redemption of him who created you? Do you look forward with an eye of faith, and view this mortal body raised in immortality, and this corruption raised in incorruption, to stand before God to be judged according to the deeds which have been done in the mortal body? 16 I say unto you, can you imagine to yourselves that ye hear the voice of the Lord, saying unto you, in that day: Come unto me ye blessed, for behold, your works have been the works of righteousness upon the face of the earth?" From Alma 5 in the Book of Mormon. This passage describes their experience. It also describes mine and generally the LDS experience when they become converted to Jesus Christ. How is this different from your statement that "One must be born of the spirit to be saved. You must be born again"? I would guess this is similar to what happened to you when Jesus Christ came into your heart and life. Am I wrong? Edited October 28, 2017 by Meerkat 2
Meerkat Posted October 28, 2017 Posted October 28, 2017 On 10/26/2017 at 5:23 PM, LittleNipper said: The Bible presents the word's of God the Father and Christ Jesus. The Bible acts as the boundaries by which all scripture is understandable. It does not contradict itself. Please reconcile these statements: Genesis 6:6King James Version (KJV) 6 And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. Exodus 32:14King James Version (KJV) 14 And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people. Numbers 14:20King James Version (KJV) 20 And the Lord said, I have pardoned according to thy word: 1 Samuel 15:35King James Version (KJV) 35 And Samuel came no more to see Saul until the day of his death: nevertheless Samuel mourned for Saul: and the Lord repented that he had made Saul king over Israel. CONTRAST THOSE WITH THESE: Numbers 23:19-20King James Version (KJV) 19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good? 20 Behold, I have received commandment to bless: and he hath blessed; and I cannot reverse it. 1 Samuel 15:29King James Version (KJV) 29 And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent. James 1:17King James Version (KJV) 17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. Since God uses mortal men to accomplish His purposes, such as compiling scriptures for future generations, I am not surprised to see an inconsistency here or there. His scriptural guidance contains enough redundancy to recognize when a mistake has been made that should be overlooked, in my opinion. That's why the Holy Ghost is key to the testimony of Christ. It is a level of understanding that surpasses the written or spoken word. Jesus said in John 14: "26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. 27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid." And John 14:6-7 "5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way? 6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." 1
pogi Posted October 29, 2017 Posted October 29, 2017 On 10/27/2017 at 9:29 PM, LittleNipper said: The Bible was written by GOD through man. The Shruti was written by GOD? What kind of ink and pen did GOD use? I can hear the Hindus laughing now...”what did God write the Ten Commandments with, his finger? In stone? Ha, ha, ha, why didnt he just use pen and ink!?” 1
Five Solas Posted October 29, 2017 Posted October 29, 2017 On 10/26/2017 at 12:51 PM, mfbukowski said: Without the spirit one will find a thousand reasons to dismiss the Book of Mormon and/or twist its words to serve his or her own purposes. Glad to know you endorse the Spirit as showing us true scripture. We always find our way back to 1 John 4, don't we ("do not believe every spirit")? ;0) But how could a person recognize a spiritual experience affirming the Bible & the doctrines therein was good while a spiritual experience affirming some other text was bad? Particularly if that other text refers to "Jesus Christ" many more times than the actual Bible itself, and by that simple standard appears to be the most Christian book in the library. I think the Christian posture must be one of humility. Not because all spiritual experiences and/or mentions of Jesus are valid, equal and merit respect. Rather, it's because he or she could have just as easily been deceived, but for the Grace of God. Humility should not be confused with passivity, of course. --Erik
The Nehor Posted October 29, 2017 Posted October 29, 2017 1 hour ago, LittleNipper said: Laugh now, pay latter. Feel free to have a good laugh at my expense if I wind up burning in hell.
thesometimesaint Posted October 29, 2017 Posted October 29, 2017 3 hours ago, LittleNipper said: Laugh now, pay latter. I have no fear of your Boogie Man God.
JLHPROF Posted October 29, 2017 Posted October 29, 2017 4 hours ago, LittleNipper said: Laugh now, pay latter. One day so called Christians will realise that the threat of hell is not a missionary tool or a good way to witness. It is what the gospel teaches us and the glorious future that draws us to it. Anyone who accepts Christ for no reason except to avoid hell has missed the point. 2
boblloyd91 Posted October 29, 2017 Posted October 29, 2017 (edited) 5 hours ago, Five Solas said: We always find our way back to 1 John 4, don't we ("do not believe every spirit")? ;0) But how could a person recognize a spiritual experience affirming the Bible & the doctrines therein was good while a spiritual experience affirming some other text was bad? Particularly if that other text refers to "Jesus Christ" many more times than the actual Bible itself, and by that simple standard appears to be the most Christian book in the library. I think the Christian posture must be one of humility. Not because all spiritual experiences and/or mentions of Jesus are valid, equal and merit respect. Rather, it's because he or she could have just as easily been deceived, but for the Grace of God. Humility should not be confused with passivity, of course. --Erik So basically be grateful God allowed one person to be deceived who prayed for help? Am I reading this right? Edited October 29, 2017 by boblloyd91
LittleNipper Posted October 29, 2017 Posted October 29, 2017 4 hours ago, JLHPROF said: One day so called Christians will realise that the threat of hell is not a missionary tool or a good way to witness. It is what the gospel teaches us and the glorious future that draws us to it. Anyone who accepts Christ for no reason except to avoid hell has missed the point. One day so called Christians maybe questioned (come Judgement Day) why they'd rather peddle "Another Testament of Jesus Christ" to other Christians while ignoring the danger of eternal separation to nonbelievers... Anyone who enters heaven will be surprised no matter what they may imagine heaven is like. The Christian ideal is no to place the cart before the horse and imagination above reality.
mfbukowski Posted October 29, 2017 Posted October 29, 2017 (edited) 9 hours ago, Five Solas said: We always find our way back to 1 John 4, don't we ("do not believe every spirit")? ;0) But how could a person recognize a spiritual experience affirming the Bible & the doctrines therein was good while a spiritual experience affirming some other text was bad? Particularly if that other text refers to "Jesus Christ" many more times than the actual Bible itself, and by that simple standard appears to be the most Christian book in the library. I think the Christian posture must be one of humility. Not because all spiritual experiences and/or mentions of Jesus are valid, equal and merit respect. Rather, it's because he or she could have just as easily been deceived, but for the Grace of God. Humility should not be confused with passivity, of course. --Erik "For the grace of God" or not. You have not considered even the possibility that Christ was not the savior or never existed, or so it seems. I do not for one moment accept that possibility not because of the fact that the bible is old (so what? many texts are old) or mentions historical sites (even novels can do that) but because the spirit has testified to me that the bible AND the BOM are to be understood as scripture. But for some reason you (plural you) want to dismiss that possibility- and for me that leaves me nothing. God has told me what I know- and I am sure he has revealed to you what he has as well- I will allow for that and you will not My God teaches all people on their own level to draw closer to him in the terms they will understand. If they want historical evidence and are naive enough to take that as proof that there was a savior, good for them. I cannot do that- I have been deceived by men too much in my life- I have seen every false argument under the sun. I was a Marxist and a Buddhist and a atheist and a this and that and in none of those did I feel the spirit of God in my heart. So admit it or not, God talks to you on an individual level and teaches both of us- and that is what I know. Why you have taken your path and I have taken mine is your business and my business privately. I could not possibly believe in your version of God, to me it is totally naive and irrational. Why believe a book because it says you should and because it is old and in Western culture it has tradition behind it? To me it is as logical as believing that bread is the flesh of Christ because that is what I have been taught. There is no "substance" (yes pun intended) to it, no more substance than the idea of "consubstantial". Both transubstantiation and the consubstantial Trinity are based on the same odd notion of an invisible "substance" that no one can define. Why would you not accept transubstantiation and yet accept a consubstantial Trinity when the underlying theology of both is based on the same assumption? It's not for me. You accept God's guidance in other areas of your life- I know you do- but not in this area because your interpretation of one or two biblical verses preclude it and force you to - in my mind- to accept an untenable position. It is very confusing to me why good folks like you do that. So yes my God is big enough to judge me by the contents of my heart and not what verses my paltry mind can make logical for my life. He loves me, wants me to do my best, and wants me back after I have done the best I am able, and even then it is still by his grace My God allows me to get closer to him by whatever good books I can find that do that. I can hear his voice in sermons, in books of men and from the spirit itself. I can listen to Evangelicals and get what they have to teach me about the bible. Their interpretations are often very spirit-filled. But guess what? That means I feel the spirit when they speak. I guess you cannot even say that about your own folks. "How do you know it's real"? I guess you yourself cannot deal with that question ? You say it is real because it is in an old book that could be a book of legends? If the BOM are legends, fine and if the Bible are legends fine- who knows in either case? Both lead me to the spirit just like a good Evangelical preacher can. But I guess you cannot say that about Mormons. I don't get it. How do I know what spirit is "real"? How can you know anything is "real"? Physicists admit they cannot even define ultimate "reality" http://www.peterbyrne.info/documents/sad0711Byrn3p.pdf. I can use the same argument against you- how do YOU know it's real?? But mi amigo I fear it is a waste of time for us to go around and around about this. Edited October 29, 2017 by mfbukowski 2
LittleNipper Posted October 29, 2017 Posted October 29, 2017 (edited) 9 hours ago, The Nehor said: Feel free to have a good laugh at my expense if I wind up burning in hell. Take it up with Pogi! However, if you are already concerned, you need to beseech God and ask Him to save you in the name of Jesus the Messiah. And tell Christ that you want Him to be Lord of your life. Next read the Bible. I might suggest reading one chapter from an Old Testament book and one from a New Testament book. Pray for His understanding of what you are reading. If you honestly do this I see no reason for you to live in dread of hell. Edited October 29, 2017 by LittleNipper
LittleNipper Posted October 29, 2017 Posted October 29, 2017 (edited) 9 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: "For the grace of God" or not. You have not considered even the possibility that Christ was not the savior or never existed, or so it seems. I do not for one moment accept that possibility not because of the fact that the bible is old (so what? many texts are old) or mentions historical sites (even novels can do that) but because the spirit has testified to me that the bible AND the BOM are to be understood as scripture. But for some reason you (plural you) want to dismiss that possibility- and for me that leaves me nothing. God has told me what I know- and I am sure he has revealed to you what he has as well- I will allow for that and you will not My God teaches all people on their own level to draw closer to him in the terms they will understand. If they want historical evidence and are naive enough to take that as proof that there was a savior, good for them. I cannot do that- I have been deceived by men too much in my life- I have seen every false argument under the sun. I was a Marxist and a Buddhist and a atheist and a this and that and in none of those did I feel the spirit of God in my heart. So admit it or not, God talks to you on an individual level and teaches both of us- and that is what I know. Why you have taken your path and I have taken mine is your business and my business privately. I could not possibly believe in your version of God, to me it is totally naive and irrational. Why believe a book because it says you should and because it is old and in Western culture it has tradition behind it? No not for me. You accept God's guidance in other areas of your life- I know you do- but not in this area because your interpretation of one or two biblical verses preclude it and force you to - in my mind- to accept an untenable position. It is very confusing to me why good folks like you do that. So yes my God is big enough to judge me by the contents of my heart and not what verses my paltry mind can make logical for my life. He loves me, wants me to do my best, and wants me back after I have done the best I am able, and even then it is still by his grace My God allows me to get closer to him by whatever good books I can find that do that. I can hear his voice in sermons, in books of men and from the spirit itself. I can listen to Evangelicals and get what they have to teach me about the bible. Their interpretations are often very spirit-filled. But guess what? That means I feel the spirit when they speak. I guess you cannot even say that about your own folks. "How do you know it's real"? I guess you yourself cannot deal with that question ? You say it is real because it is in an old book that could be a book of legends? If the BOM are legends, fine and if the Bible are legends fine- who knows in either case? Both lead me to the spirit just like a good Evangelical preacher can. But I guess you cannot say that about Mormons. I don't get it. How do I know what spirit is "real"? How can you know anything is "real"? Physicists admit they cannot even define ultimate "reality" http://www.peterbyrne.info/documents/sad0711Byrn3p.pdf. I can use the same argument against you- how do YOU know it's real?? But mi amigo I fear it is a waste of time for us to go around and around about this. If Jesus is not the Savior or never existed, we are ALL still living in our sins and separated from GOD. GOD can only see you through ADAM's FALL. There is no hope without a Savior and the permanent shedding of blood of a perfect sacrifice. The Messiah was the only perfect sacrifice ever? If the story of Original Sin is simply a fairy tale, then why do people do evil things? And if we don't need a Savior, why would Jesus go to the cross? He could have simply have walked away... Edited October 29, 2017 by LittleNipper
mfbukowski Posted October 29, 2017 Posted October 29, 2017 22 minutes ago, LittleNipper said: One day so called Christians maybe questioned (come Judgement Day) why they'd rather peddle "Another Testament of Jesus Christ" to other Christians while ignoring the danger of eternal separation to nonbelievers... Anyone who enters heaven will be surprised no matter what they may imagine heaven is like. The Christian ideal is no to place the cart before the horse and imagination above reality. See the above if you like and take a shot at it.
mfbukowski Posted October 29, 2017 Posted October 29, 2017 (edited) 12 minutes ago, LittleNipper said: If Jesus is not the Savior or never existed, we are ALL still living in our sins and separated from GOD. GOD can only see you through ADAM's FALL. There is no hope without a Savior and the permanent shedding of blood of a perfect sacrifice. The Messiah was the only perfect sacrifice ever? If the story of Original Sin is simply a fairy tale, then why do people do evil things? And if we don't need a Savior, why would Jesus go to the cross? He could have simply have walked away... Circular argument. Why can't you see that? Maybe there ARE no "sins" to live in! Then there was no Adam! There is no need for hope for a savior or a perfect sacrifice. Your argument is deeply flawed. You are saying "the bible is true because it says it is true" You are assuming the truth without considering any other possibility. If the Bible is false and the savior never existed, you have no evidence for any of this, it is all a fable you bought into. There was no Jesus remember- on this assumption? I know he existed because God has revealed it to me personally not because it is an old book full of truth and fables both. I believe in the savior because God has revealed to me personally that I am saved through repentance after all I can do Edited October 29, 2017 by mfbukowski 2
mfbukowski Posted October 29, 2017 Posted October 29, 2017 (edited) 23 minutes ago, LittleNipper said: Take it up with Pogi! However, if you are already concerned, you need to beseech God and ask Him to save you in the name of Jesus the Messiah. And tell Christ that you want Him to be Lord of your life. Next read the Bible. I might suggest reading one chapter from an Old Testament book and one from a New Testament book. Pray for His understanding of what you are reading. If you honestly do this I see no reason for you to live in dread of hell. This was not addressed to me, but yes, I have done that, and know that God has saved me I have read the bible cover to cover many times. It's not very hard. There is a lot of wisdom there! Edited October 29, 2017 by mfbukowski
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