Robert F. Smith Posted September 21, 2017 Posted September 21, 2017 6 hours ago, clarkgoble said: I believe most of the money will be used for the retirement fund which is woefully under capitalized. So it's for a good purpose. Sounds reasonable. I used to know a number of the top and middle-level leadership of the old RLDS Church, and I found them to be good people. They worked hard and deserved a good retirement.
bluebell Posted September 21, 2017 Posted September 21, 2017 32 minutes ago, rockpond said: We've done plenty of things that He later told us to reverse. I have no reason to believe that He was involved in this particular decision. It doesn't really strike me as something Christ would support. Others likely differ in opinion. OTOH, we could look at it as extending a lifeline to the Community of Christ. And that's not a bad thing. That's not what I asked though. I asked if you thought that the church would do something they didn't believe God was o.k. with. Whether or not they are ultimately right or wrong is a different question.
Button Gwinnett Posted September 21, 2017 Posted September 21, 2017 23 minutes ago, bluebell said: That's not what I asked though. I asked if you thought that the church would do something they didn't believe God was o.k. with. Whether or not they are ultimately right or wrong is a different question. It was my understanding that the manuscript did not come from church funds but was purchased by an anonymous donor and was donated to the church. 2
JLHPROF Posted September 21, 2017 Author Posted September 21, 2017 1 hour ago, rockpond said: It doesn't really strike me as something Christ would support. Based on what? The Lord's history in preserving records is well documented. That seems to be a priority for him. I don't think anyone would have questioned a Christian Church purchasing a newly found Dead Sea Scroll. 2
Scott Lloyd Posted September 21, 2017 Posted September 21, 2017 18 hours ago, JLHPROF said: The Church just announced the purchase of the printers manuscript of the Book of Mormon from the Community of Christ for $35 million in donor funds. (So not presumably not tithing). Bargain? Thoughts? Naturally the social media response is as expected - "Why didn't they by more xyz charitable items with the money". "Jesus would never approve". etc.https://www.deseretnews.com/article/865689273/LDS-Church-buys-printers-manuscript-of-Book-of-Mormon-for-record-35-million-from-Community-of.htmlhttps://bycommonconsent.com/2017/09/20/35-million/http://fox13now.com/2017/09/20/lds-church-acquires-printers-manuscript-of-book-of-mormon-for-35-million/ Community of Christ announcement - http://www.cofchrist.org/announcements LDS Church announcement - http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/church-acquires-printers-manuscript-book-of-mormon "Not presumably not tithing" is a double negative. Did you mean "presumably not tithing"?
JLHPROF Posted September 21, 2017 Author Posted September 21, 2017 Just now, Scott Lloyd said: "Not presumably not tithing" is a double negative. Did you mean "presumably not tithing"? Yes, typo.
strappinglad Posted September 21, 2017 Posted September 21, 2017 (edited) If Mrs. Harris et al had only known! Imagine the price the unmolested 116 pages of the BoM manuscript would have fetched for their descendants . By the by, to my knowledge, very little was ever said by anyone about what was covered in those 116 pages. The text does say that more ' secular ' things were written . There may have been more about lifestyle etc. that would have answered many questions, and likely raised a bunch more. IIRC , It has been said that Joseph would regale the family with tales of the Nephites during family home evening type sessions. Are there any records written about it? Edited September 21, 2017 by strappinglad
Scott Lloyd Posted September 21, 2017 Posted September 21, 2017 Any thoughts on who the anonymous donor is? I'm guessing Larry H. Miller's estate, since it was he who funded the Joseph Smith Papers project, and of all the causes he supported with his philanthropy, it was that he was fondest of.
Button Gwinnett Posted September 21, 2017 Posted September 21, 2017 14 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: Any thoughts on who the anonymous donor is? I'm guessing Larry H. Miller's estate, since it was he who funded the Joseph Smith Papers project, and of all the causes he supported with his philanthropy, it was that he was fondest of. Well the number of active LDS Member with $35 million laying around looking for a philanthropy need to fill is few. But you make a good argument. He did fund the JSP and this would be consistent with his passions. Irrespective, Utah is surely blessed to have had him as a native son. He has done so many wonderful positive things for the people of the state of Utah. 1
Scott Lloyd Posted September 21, 2017 Posted September 21, 2017 12 minutes ago, Button Gwinnett said: Well the number of active LDS Member with $35 million laying around looking for a philanthropy need to fill is few. But you make a good argument. He did fund the JSP and this would be consistent with his passions. Irrespective, Utah is surely blessed to have had him as a native son. He has done so many wonderful positive things for the people of the state of Utah. It would be a logical extension as well, since the printer's manuscript is part of the Joseph Smith Papers and, in fact, was published a couple of years ago in photofacsimile with typscript transcription on facing pages.
clarkgoble Posted September 21, 2017 Posted September 21, 2017 58 minutes ago, Button Gwinnett said: It was my understanding that the manuscript did not come from church funds but was purchased by an anonymous donor and was donated to the church. I've not heard that anywhere although it wouldn't surprise me. That's been the case in the past with many documents the Church has obtained. Although in this case it's a large sum of money, although most reports I've read said the Church got a killer deal on the documents. They were likely worth $50 million to as much as $100 million dollars. 23 minutes ago, Button Gwinnett said: Well the number of active LDS Member with $35 million laying around looking for a philanthropy need to fill is few. But you make a good argument. He did fund the JSP and this would be consistent with his passions. Irrespective, Utah is surely blessed to have had him as a native son. He has done so many wonderful positive things for the people of the state of Utah. It's possible, although there are quite a few different wealthy people who have bought documents in the past. This one is a bit pricier than many past documents, but it could have easily been the Huntsman family too or a few others very rich people.
Popular Post Scott Lloyd Posted September 21, 2017 Popular Post Posted September 21, 2017 (edited) This event brings some memories to mind. Sometime in the late 1990s, I found myself in Independence, Mo., having traveled there with my wife to work on some Church News stories. In Independence I met the man who was serving at the time as the director of our visitors center there. He had a good relationship with Ronald Romig, who, at the time, was the archivist for the Community of Christ. As we were visiting with Ron in the LDS visitors center, he invited me to go across the street with him and the visitors center director to the archives in the Community of Christ temple (my wife couldn't come along, because she was busy with our baby at the time). There, Ron showed us the printer's manuscript of the Book of Mormon. Needless to say, it was a momentous experience for me. Ron told me on that occasion that our church and his were working cooperatively to preserve the manuscript, that he had earlier sent it to our Church History Department in Salt Lake City because our church had better resources than his for conserving documents such as the printer's manuscript. Some years later, I was working on a story about a landmark anniversary (it may have been the 175th) of the publication of the Book of Mormon. It was early in the morning, about 5 a.m. perhaps. I was working at home on my computer, writing the story. I remembered my experience seeing the printer's manuscript, and on a hunch, I emailed Ron Romig back in Independence to inquire about the possibility of our acquiring a digital image of one of the pages from the printer's manuscript and permission to reproduce it on the center spread of the Church News where my article would be published. Within minutes, I received a reply from Ron, telling me he was waiving the customary fee for such things and granting us the permission. Attached to the email was the digital image I had sought. We ran it that weekend in the Church News with the credit line "Courtesy Community of Christ." Edited September 21, 2017 by Scott Lloyd 6
cdowis Posted September 21, 2017 Posted September 21, 2017 (edited) 7 hours ago, ALarson said: A real game-changer would be something that was physical evidence proving that the Book of Mormon was historically factual. Now that would be a game-changer for most all members. (Such as finding and authenticating the gold plates, for example ) You are so predictable. And so is my response. Does the Bible, or any other book, make such a claim, that God Himself will testify that it is His word. The game changer is Moroni 10:4-5 It would be nice if we could put the stone tablets of the Ten Commandments on display and authenticate them How about the Ark of he Covenant, Noah's Ark, Moses staff that changes into a serpent, for example. Edited September 21, 2017 by cdowis
Stargazer Posted September 21, 2017 Posted September 21, 2017 18 hours ago, RevTestament said: Why do we need it? They let us look at it. I think we have photographs of every page. And yeah, that is too much. Who else is going to buy it? It's not like Romney is going to scoop it up from underneath the Church. I have a good idea. Let's not buy their temple. I am going to hurt some CoC member feelings, but I don't like that thing. They are all going to flock to the Church within a decade anyway, and give it to us. For all we know Romney might have helped fund this exchange. As for CoC members flocking to the LDS church, they've already been hemorrhaging members for some time, and though a few have joined us, many more have simply gone inactive, or formed their own splinter groups. We used to have a poster here who was involved with one of those groups -- I haven't seen him post for some time. Don't remember his handle. I doubt they'd just give us the Kirtland Temple. I expect the CoC to be around for some time to come, but selling that building is probably inevitable.
Tacenda Posted September 22, 2017 Posted September 22, 2017 43 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: This event brings some memories to mind. Sometime in the late 1990s, I found myself in Independence, Mo., having traveled there with my wife to work on some Church News stories. In Independence I met the man who was serving at the time as the director of our visitors center there. He had a good relationship with Ronald Romig, who, at the time, was the archivist for the Community of Christ. As we were visiting with Ron in the LDS visitors center, he invited me to go across the street with him and the visitors center director to the archives in the Community of Christ temple (my wife couldn't come along, because she was busy with our baby at the time). There, Ron showed us the printer's manuscript of the Book of Mormon. Needless to say, it was a momentous experience for me. Ron told me on that occasion that our church and his were working cooperatively to preserve the manuscript, that he had earlier sent it to our Church History Department in Salt Lake City because our church had better resources than his for conserving documents such as the printer's manuscript. Some years later, I was working on a story about a landmark anniversary (it may have been the 175th) of the publication of the Book of Mormon. It was early in the morning, about 5 a.m. perhaps. I was working at home on my computer, writing the story. I remembered my experience seeing the printer's manuscript, and on a hunch, I emailed Ron Romig back in Independence to inquire about the possibility of our acquiring a digital image of one of the pages from the printer's manuscript and permission to reproduce it on the center spread of the Church News where my article would be published. Within minutes, I received a reply from Ron, telling me he was waiving the customary fee for such things and granting us the permission. Attached to the email was the digital image I had sought. We ran it that weekend in the Church News with the credit line "Courtesy Community of Christ." I listened to a podcast with John Hamer and he mentioned the same thing, that Community of Christ wanted the church to have them to help preserve them better than they themselves have means to do. And I'm sure the CoC could have received a lot more money for it, since they could have sold pieces of it, not that they would ever do such a thing though.
RevTestament Posted September 22, 2017 Posted September 22, 2017 33 minutes ago, Stargazer said: As for CoC members flocking to the LDS church, they've already been hemorrhaging members for some time, and though a few have joined us, many more have simply gone inactive, or formed their own splinter groups. We used to have a poster here who was involved with one of those groups -- I haven't seen him post for some time. Don't remember his handle. R U speaking of BoMLUVr? Quote I doubt they'd just give us the Kirtland Temple. I expect the CoC to be around for some time to come, but selling that building is probably inevitable. I was speaking of their Independence Temple. I am not opposed to buying the Kirtland temple for a reasonable price, but I think they will give that to us soon too.
Button Gwinnett Posted September 22, 2017 Posted September 22, 2017 1 hour ago, clarkgoble said: I've not heard that anywhere although it wouldn't surprise me. That's been the case in the past with many documents the Church has obtained. Although in this case it's a large sum of money, although most reports I've read said the Church got a killer deal on the documents. They were likely worth $50 million to as much as $100 million dollars. It's possible, although there are quite a few different wealthy people who have bought documents in the past. This one is a bit pricier than many past documents, but it could have easily been the Huntsman family too or a few others very rich people. It's been confirmed, a generous donor bought the manuscript and donated it to the church.
Stargazer Posted September 22, 2017 Posted September 22, 2017 51 minutes ago, RevTestament said: R U speaking of BoMLUVr? Yes, that's him! 51 minutes ago, RevTestament said: I was speaking of their Independence Temple. I am not opposed to buying the Kirtland temple for a reasonable price, but I think they will give that to us soon too. Oh, really. They'd have to swallow a great deal of chaff over selling that one. It was built in response to a supposed revelation received in 1984 by their then-prophet Wallace B. Smith. They'd have to disband, I think, before they gave that up.
Stargazer Posted September 22, 2017 Posted September 22, 2017 1 hour ago, RevTestament said: R U speaking of BoMLUVr? Actually, that's BOOKOFMORMONLUVR, I think. And he last posted in April 2017. And none of his content comes back in a search. So I don't know what has become of him.
omni Posted September 22, 2017 Posted September 22, 2017 (edited) 7 hours ago, rongo said: But wait! I thought that becoming more theological liberal --- especially with women ordination and gay marriage --- would result in our church thriving and expanding. CoC is often held out as an exemplar for us. Do you mean to tell me that the Church could go into financial free fall (and membership free fall) if it "went CoC?" I'm shocked! Shocked, I say! Or we could look at the other end of the spectrum (FLDS) and to see what happens when a church doesn't change and adapt to modern times. I'll take the CoC any day if he week! Edited September 22, 2017 by omni
MDalby Posted September 22, 2017 Posted September 22, 2017 8 hours ago, Alan said: In the statement issued by Stephen Veasey (President of the Community of Christ) it says they have been negotiating for the sale of the Manuscript for a year. Apparently, the proceeds are to be used to meet pension liabilities for retired church ministers. They are disposing of $25 million of real estate for the same purpose. In light of the announcement that negotiations for the Printers Manuscript have been ongoing for a year, I found the following statement very interesting: "Negotiations are continuing to sell other historical assets not essential to mission". If there was one CoC asset that I would want the most, it would be the Red Brick Store in Nauvoo. Along with the Kirtland Temple, that site may be the most important historical site due to the events that occurred in that building.
RevTestament Posted September 22, 2017 Posted September 22, 2017 1 hour ago, Stargazer said: Actually, that's BOOKOFMORMONLUVR, I think. And he last posted in April 2017. And none of his content comes back in a search. So I don't know what has become of him. I have the feeling it was decided he was proselyting for his new sect.
MDalby Posted September 22, 2017 Posted September 22, 2017 (edited) 4 hours ago, strappinglad said: If Mrs. Harris et al had only known! Imagine the price the unmolested 116 pages of the BoM manuscript would have fetched for their descendants . By the by, to my knowledge, very little was ever said by anyone about what was covered in those 116 pages. The text does say that more ' secular ' things were written . There may have been more about lifestyle etc. that would have answered many questions, and likely raised a bunch more. IIRC , It has been said that Joseph would regale the family with tales of the Nephites during family home evening type sessions. Are there any records written about it? One nugget that we learn from the 116 lost pages is that Ishmael was form the tribe of Ephraim. Quote "Ishmael an Ephraimite - 'The Prophet Joseph Smith informed us that the record of Lehi was contained on the one hundred sixteen pages that were first translated and subsequently stolen, and of which an abridgment is given us in the First Book of Nephi, which is the record of Nephi individually, he himself being of the lineage of Manasseh; but that Ishmael was of the lineage of Ephraim, and that his sons married into Lehi's family, and Lehi's sons married Ishmael's daughters, thus fulfilling the words of Jacob upon Ephraim and Manasseh in the 48th chapter of Genesis [verse 16] which says: 'And let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.' Thus these descendants of Manasseh and Ephraim grew together upon this American continent, with a sprinkling from the house of Judah, from Mulek descended, who left Jerusalem eleven years after Lehi, and founded the colony afterwards known as Zarahemla found by Mosiah -- thus making a combination, an intermixture of Ephraim and Manasseh with the remnants of Judah, and for aught we know, the remnants of some other tribes that might have accompanied Mulek. And such have grown up upon the American continent.' -- From "Discourse by Apostle Erastus Snow," at Logan, Utah, May 6, 1882, see Journal of Discourses, vol. 23, pp. 184, 185." (James E. Talmage, A Study of the Articles of Faith, p.504-5) Edited September 22, 2017 by MDalby 2
Calm Posted September 22, 2017 Posted September 22, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Stargazer said: Actually, that's BOOKOFMORMONLUVR, I think. And he last posted in April 2017. And none of his content comes back in a search. So I don't know what has become of him. The last two updates either dumped a lot or cut links. Old rep points I think got erased in the system change, for example. Searches aren't pulling up old stuff. No need to hold on to that stuff except for the occasional reminding of who said what on a thread, but .i wonder if it is there and we just can't access it through search or if it is really gone. add-on: http://www.mormondialogue.org/profile/16906-bookofmormonluvr/?do=content&type=forums_topic_post&change_section=1 I don't see anything he might have gotten banned for. Don't remember either as I see him as a mellow poster. He probably just got busy in life. If you go to "search content" in a profile, you need to hit "posts" on the left hand menu. Edited September 22, 2017 by Calm
Scott Lloyd Posted September 22, 2017 Posted September 22, 2017 56 minutes ago, MDalby said: If there was one CoC asset that I would want the most, it would be the Red Brick Store in Nauvoo. Along with the Kirtland Temple, that site may be the most important historical site due to the events that occurred in that building. The building is not original though. It's a replica (a pretty good one) built by Community of Christ.
Recommended Posts