$35 Million to buy the printers manuscripts of the BOM

[clarkgoble]

1 hour ago, MDalby said:

If there was one CoC asset that I would want the most, it would be the Red Brick Store in Nauvoo.  Along with the Kirtland Temple, that site may be the most important historical site due to the events that occurred in that building.

 It's not owned by CoC but the temple lot is the ultimate real estate from the Church's perspective. 

Of course I doubt the Church will ever get it. Nor am I sure I want them to get it just yet, given the prophecies and traditions of the lot. 

Edited September 22, 2017 by clarkgoble

[Stargazer]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

The last two updates either dumped a lot or cut links.  Old rep points I think got erased in the system change, for example.  Searches aren't pulling up old stuff.  No need to hold on to that stuff except for the occasional reminding of who said what on a thread, but .i wonder if it is there and we just can't access it through search or if it is really gone.

add-on:

http://www.mormondialogue.org/profile/16906-bookofmormonluvr/?do=content&type=forums_topic_post&change_section=1

I don't see anything he might have gotten banned for.  Don't remember either as I see him as a mellow poster.  He probably just got busy in life.

If you go to "search content" in a profile, you need to hit "posts" on the left hand menu.

Ah ha!  I guess I have something to learn about the board software.

On the other hand, it won't let me update my profile, beyond changing my avatar.  

[Calm]

9 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

Ah ha!  I guess I have something to learn about the board software.

On the other hand, it won't let me update my profile, beyond changing my avatar.  

Love this avatar, btw.

[MDalby]

1 hour ago, clarkgoble said:

 

Edited September 22, 2017 by MDalby

[Stargazer]

3 hours ago, Calm said:

Love this avatar, btw.

Thanks! I was getting tired of the radio telescope.  Maybe later I will change Hubble for the James Webb.

[CV75]

15 hours ago, rockpond said:

We've done plenty of things that He later told us to reverse.  I have no reason to believe that He was involved in this particular decision.

It doesn't really strike me as something Christ would support.  Others likely differ in opinion.  OTOH, we could look at it as extending a lifeline to the Community of Christ.  And that's not a bad thing.

The Lord certainly supports and  approves of freewill offerings (as opposed to the commanded tithes and offerings). There are several references to it in the Old Testament.

Paul thanks the saints in behalf of God for their freewill offerings in supporting the cause (2 Corinthians 8:2-6).

D&C 136:27 “Thou shalt be diligent in preserving what thou hast, that thou mayest be a wise steward; for it is the free gift of the Lord thy God, and thou art his steward.” Here we have several things the Lord approves of: preserving the relic as a memorial of His gift (the Book of Mormon) in a material way (stewardship), which can entail freewill monetary transactions between the saints as both stewards of their material wealth and donors of it, and the Church as the steward of their gifts.

Here is how I see the Lord supporting this transaction: First and foremost, it acknowledges the agency of donors in their expression of faith through freewill, good-faith offerings.

Second, it is a memorial to the Lord. In 1999 President Hinckley announced, “In closing now, I feel impressed to announce that among all of the temples we are constructing, we plan to rebuild the Nauvoo Temple. A member of the Church and his family have provided a very substantial contribution to make this possible. We are grateful to him… And the new building will stand as a memorial to those who built the first such structure there on the banks of the Mississippi.” https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1999/04/thanks-to-the-lord-for-his-blessings?lang=eng

A memorial expands the memory of later generations who might otherwise forget or let go. The Israelites had the contents of the ark; Joseph saw the relics from the stone box. In a digital age, the possession of the original represents an opportunity to connect with our primitive roots. Related to this, I see both the Nauvoo temple and the printer’s copy as a reclamation of our history, which is an assertive move that for any group offers a strengthening of identity and shared potential.

[JAHS]

22 hours ago, Alan said:

The Community of Christ are in financial free-fall, so this will help them limp on for a few more years.

They got a $40 million donation from a rich member back in 1999 and have squandered the lot on their "Transformation 2000" initiative. This was based on a ministerial recruitment programme which they expected would kick start a period of growth. The opposite happened and they have laid off ministers and reduced commitments every year.

Personally, I think it's only a matter of time before they sell us the Kirtland Temple.

Here is a statement on the financial situation of the C of C from their president

"However, some serious financial issues are hindering the church as we try to respond to
God’s call. These issues must be resolved so we can be free to move ahead.
Before I describe those issues and our plans, I want you to know that last weekend the
Presiding Bishopric convened a summit of church member business leaders; skilled financial
planners and managers; real estate developers; legal professionals; and major contributors. We
asked participants to review financial information and interpretations of data and then to
evaluate our plans. They also explored implications or alternatives we might have missed. On
behalf of the church, I want to thank them for their participation and insights.
For the past six months Worldwide Mission Tithes income has been less than projected.
This follows a year when tithing increased through a “grassroots” effort to avoid some planned
reductions. However, projected levels of increased giving are not being achieved this year.
There is time to reverse that trend before the end of the year. But church leaders must develop
budgets now based on current trends. 
It is not just a matter of annual tithing income. The number of contributors in Western
nations has been declining for decades. This mostly is because of deaths of generous
contributors who are not being replaced by new contributors. This trend is accelerating...
So we are announcing the following actions:
1. Negotiations are continuing to sell other historic assets not essential to mission.
2. Efforts are underway to raise at least $25 million by selling property assets around the
world that are not essential for mission. Proceeds from these sales will be used to help
fund retirement obligations.
3. Beginning today we are implementing a church‐wide pause on major facility and
property purchases and building projects except for essential maintenance, repairs for
safety, and building code compliance. This applies to the World Church, mission centers,
campgrounds, and congregations. We need to work together on the financial challenges
before us without creating additional obligations. This is similar to the church‐wide hold
on building projects put in place as we prepared to build the Temple. Any exceptions
will have to be approved by the field apostle, director of Field Ministries, and the
Presiding Bishopric

I assume #1 is referring to the sell of the manuscript

Read the entire report  HERE

 

[Atheist Mormon]

On 9/21/2017 at 10:26 AM, stemelbow said:

I agree.  I have no idea what game is changed by this.

Well prosperity gospel is largely accepted by the Mormon populace. 

Thank God for that. Every time I get a mental image of Mother Theresa I cringe inside.

[thesometimesaint]

1 hour ago, Atheist Mormon said:

Thank God for that. Every time I get a mental image of Mother Theresa I cringe inside.

Are we prosperous because of our righteousness, or are we righteous because of our prosperity?

[Atheist Mormon]

4 hours ago, thesometimesaint said:

Are we prosperous because of our righteousness, or are we righteous because of our prosperity?

Sorry,  (LDS)  being Righteous/Unrighteous has nothing to do with your situation, as the saying goes; "right time, right place". 

[thatjimguy]

I wouldn't care if they DID use tithing money on this. I mean, it's pretty much related. 

[Calm]

11 minutes ago, thatjimguy said:

I wouldn't care if they DID use tithing money on this. I mean, it's pretty much related. 

New avatar?

[thatjimguy]

On 9/24/2017 at 3:44 AM, Calm said:

New avatar?

Yeah. Time for a change. Before, I often felt that when I asked legit questions, people assumed I was attacking the church. Granted, my east coast bluntness and musings from way out in left field had something to do with their thoughts in that direction so I don't blame anyone. I picked Snydley Whiplash as my avatar to poke fun it.

Truth is though, I am more in the church than ever. Also, those kinds of knee-jerk reactions have gone away in recent years.

I think that Samuel the Lamanite fits the bill perfectly. 

[why me]

Of course the haters will comment on this and blame the lds church for wasting money. However, we can look at this another way: why did a church of christ accept cash payment? Why sell them? Should not a church of christ have given the manusripts to the church as a symbol of christ-like charity? These questions will not be asked. Or how about this: the CoC could have told the lds church that the 35 million for the mechandise can be donated to hurricane relief. That would be a win win. So, why be critical of the lds church for purchasing a piece of history and not of the church who sold it for millions?

Edited September 27, 2017 by why me

[smac97]

On 9/22/2017 at 10:00 AM, JAHS said:

Here is a statement on the financial situation of the C of C from their president

...
So we are announcing the following actions:
1. Negotiations are continuing to sell other historic assets not essential to mission.
2. Efforts are underway to raise at least $25 million by selling property assets around the
world that are not essential for mission. Proceeds from these sales will be used to help
fund retirement obligations.
3. Beginning today we are implementing a church‐wide pause on major facility and
property purchases and building projects except for essential maintenance, repairs for
safety, and building code compliance. This applies to the World Church, mission centers,
campgrounds, and congregations. We need to work together on the financial challenges
before us without creating additional obligations. This is similar to the church‐wide hold
on building projects put in place as we prepared to build the Temple. Any exceptions
will have to be approved by the field apostle, director of Field Ministries, and the
Presiding Bishopric

I assume #1 is referring to the sell of the manuscript

Read the entire report  HERE

 

From page 4 of the report:

Quote

As stated previously we plan to fund retirement obligations from the sale of historic and real estate assets not essential to mission and contributions to Bridge of Hope Tithes. 

"{A}nd real estate assets not essential to mission."

Hmm.  I wonder what "real estate assets" are being considered for sale.

The Kirtland Temple, perhaps?  It appears not to be "essential to mission."

Thanks,

-Smac

EDIT TO ADD:

The Church bought several properties from the CoC in 2012, including 6,000 acres of Missouri farmland, the Haun’s Mill and the Far West Burying Ground in Missouri as well as the Joseph Smith Sr. home in Kirtland, Ohio.  See here.

The letter I linked to earlier indicates the CoC is deeply in debt as pertaining to pension obligations, that they need "$115 million ... to fully fund these fixed retirement obligations," they currently have $25 million in their retirement trust, $38 million in pledged donations, and $35 million from the sale of the original manuscript.  The letter elsewhere states that "[n]egotiations are continuing to sell other historic assets not essential to mission," that "[e]fforts are underway to raise at least $25 million by selling property assets around the world that are not essential for mission," and that the CoC folks are "implementing a church‐wide pause on major facility and property purchases and building projects except for essential maintenance, repairs for safety, and building code compliance."

 

I wonder how much emotional/spiritual attachment is felt by the CoC folks about the Kirtland Temple.  The letter speaks of "historic" assets, which would seem to be assets other than things like farms and current buildings.  It would also make sense to keep farmland and leased properties because they generate revenue, whereas the Kirtland Temple does not (if anything, I suspect it operates a loss).

 

I also wonder how many assets the CoC holds which are "historic."  The letter speaks of "property assets around the world," but property assets which are also "historic" would seem to be more or less limited to the CoC's sphere in Missouri (Independence) and Ohio (Kirtland).  

 

The CoC owns most of the 63 acres of land which surround the "Temple Lot" in Independence.  However, the CoC auditorium is build on this property.  I also think this property may be considered "essential for mission."

 

So if the CoC is planning to sell assets which are A) non-revenue-producing (a guess on my part, but probably correct), B) "not essential for mission" C) "historic" in nature and D) worth a very large amount of money (as evidenced by the need described in the letter), it would seem that the Kirtland Temple fits the bill.

Edited September 27, 2017 by smac97