Did anyone else take a Church poll yesterday? Maybe Survey is a better word.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Yesterday in the third hour, all the adult members were asked to assemble. At which time we were all handed out questionnaires, that contained some very odd questions. We were told that only 50 Wards in the U.S. and Canada were selected to take part. Questions ranged from Ward or Stake callings, Temple worthiness, depression and connecting difficulties with each. One question even asked if "we thought we might be active in the Church five years from now". 

No one was to put their names on them, except for Bishopric and a few other leadership callings, and they were to be sealed in bags, where no one in the Ward could read them, not even Bishopric. We were all hold it was not required to take part, and could leave if we did not want to take part. It is one of the most odd things my wife and I, and my adult children were ever asked to do. Some members were quietly audible, in frustration as to what the questions meant, and how to reply. It was no secret, and no one was told they could not speak of it. Did anyone here experience this yesterday? 

If so, what were your feelings about the questions and the choices given to reply? 

[Duncan]

prognosis negative, not in my ward

[juliann]

Can you remember more questions? Survey questions are always hard to answer because they don't give you shades of gray.

[cdowis]

For me, the object was likely to determine why people leave the church.  Regarding leadership positions we have had several bishops leave the church, including area authorities, who are active antiMormons, as well as concerns about the apostate groups.

I have  a Master's thesis in the social sciences, and sounds like pretty standard stuff, the key question being whether you think you will in the church in the next five years.

Edited September 18, 2017 by cdowis

[jkwilliams]

2 minutes ago, cdowis said:

For me, the object was likely to determine why people leave the church.  Regarding leadership positions we have had several bishops leave the church, including area authorities, who are active antiMormons, as well as concerns about the apostate groups.

I have  a Master's thesis in the social sciences, and sounds like pretty standard stuff, the key question being whether you think you will in the church in the next five years.

Does anyone plan on leaving the church? Not in my experience. If you had asked me a month before my crisis of faith if I thought I would ever leave the church, I would have said no. Most of my ex-Mormon friends have described a similar experience: it just happened without warning. And if someone were planning on getting out, I doubt they would say so on a questionnaire.

[Bob Crockett]

The Church frequently relies on surveys.  The reason the Church did not dispose of BYU and Ricks, and instead decided to expand them, was the result of a Richard Wirthlin survey which reported that the factor most statistically significant to Church activity (more than a mission, more than a temple marriage, more than seminary) was a BYU degree.  BYU published the results of this survey (early 1980s) in a book which I have.  It would be difficult to find it as my books are not organized, but I might.

Certainly, there is scriptural support for the use of surveys and secular means to determine the wishes of the congregation.  Even today, all is done by common consent.   As I have pointed out in the past, when Brigham Young tried to release a Mountain Meadows Massacre perpetrator, William Dame, from his position as Stake President, his stake refused to accept the replacement and Brigham Young left the fellow in place -- much to his expressed disgust.

Edited September 18, 2017 by Bob Crockett

[ALarson]

36 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

Does anyone plan on leaving the church? 

Yes (read the NOM forum...many want to be out now but are trying to wait awhile because of their spouse or family members, etc.).  I also personally know of at least one couple in my ward who have expressed to me that as soon as all of their kids are married (they assume they will be temple marriages), they will no longer attend.  There may be other circumstances too.

But, I do agree with you, that most of the time one cannot plan it ahead of time.

[ALarson]

2 hours ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

Yesterday in the third hour, all the adult members were asked to assemble. At which time we were all handed out questionnaires, that contained some very odd questions. We were told that only 50 Wards in the U.S. and Canada were selected to take part. Questions ranged from Ward or Stake callings, Temple worthiness, depression and connecting difficulties with each. One question even asked if "we thought we might be active in the Church five years from now". 

No one was to put their names on them, except for Bishopric and a few other leadership callings, and they were to be sealed in bags, where no one in the Ward could read them, not even Bishopric. We were all hold it was not required to take part, and could leave if we did not want to take part. It is one of the most odd things my wife and I, and my adult children were ever asked to do. Some members were quietly audible, in frustration as to what the questions meant, and how to reply. It was no secret, and no one was told they could not speak of it. Did anyone here experience this yesterday? 

If so, what were your feelings about the questions and the choices given to reply? 

I'd love to hear more of the questions, Papa.

This did not take place in my ward, but it sounds interesting....

[juliann]

I think a key point of this was that it was handed out to entire wards rather than the random sampling usual stuff.  

[jkwilliams]

1 minute ago, ALarson said:

Yes (read the NOM forum...many want to be out now but are trying to wait awhile because of their spouse or family members, etc.).  I also personally know of at least one couple in my ward who have expressed to me that as soon as all of their kids are married (they assume they will be temple marriages), they will no longer attend.  There may be other circumstances too.

But, I do agree with you, that most of the time one cannot plan it ahead of time.

You're right. I know a lot of people who are in the church but not of it. Heck, I'm still in the church. Do I think I'll be out of the church in 5 years? Nope. But I can't imagine people in the circumstances you describe checking, "No, I won't be a member in 5 years." 

[juliann]

3 minutes ago, ALarson said:

Yes (read the NOM forum...many want to be out now but are trying to wait awhile because of their spouse or family members, etc.).  I also personally know of at least one couple in my ward who have expressed to me that as soon as all of their kids are married (they assume they will be temple marriages), they will no longer attend.  There may be other circumstances too.

But, I do agree with you, that most of the time one cannot plan it ahead of time.

Makes me wonder if they are trying to identify movements within wards and what might lead to saying you might leave in 5 years. 

[ALarson]

Just now, jkwilliams said:

You're right. I know a lot of people who are in the church but not of it. Heck, I'm still in the church. Do I think I'll be out of the church in 5 years? Nope. But I can't imagine people in the circumstances you describe checking, "No, I won't be a member in 5 years." 

Yes, not resigned (as many would not know if that would happen within 5 years).  But Papa said "not active" and I think that would be easier to predict, IMO.

[jkwilliams]

Just now, ALarson said:

Yes, not resigned (as many would not know if that would happen within 5 years).  But Papa said "not active" and I think that would be easier to predict, IMO.

Maybe so. It just seems a strange thing to ask people. 

[Johnnie Cake]

1 hour ago, jkwilliams said:

Does anyone plan on leaving the church? Not in my experience. If you had asked me a month before my crisis of faith if I thought I would ever leave the church, I would have said no. Most of my ex-Mormon friends have described a similar experience: it just happened without warning. And if someone were planning on getting out, I doubt they would say so on a questionnaire.

I agree...I was an Uber TBM, fully active, temple going...until I wasn't...I had no pre conceived notion of ever leaving...the church was my life and gave it meaning...until it no longer did.

[Kenngo1969]

Perhaps a big part of the problem could be solved simply by adding an extra question to the Temple Recommend Interview: "Do you sustain Denver C. Snuffer as a prophet, seer, and revelator, and President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and the only man on earth authorized to exercise all priesthood keys?"  

  Yes, I know that temple worthiness, continuing faithfulness, one's standing in the Church, and apostasy are serious matters.  In truth, that matter is addressed with the same question as applied to President Thomas S. Monson.

[hagoth7]

27 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

Maybe so. It just seems a strange thing to ask people. 

Not really.

They are probably looking for what might trigger people to consider themselves on the outskirts. And what might be done to remedy that. 

The other questions may serve to help fill that query.

Edited September 18, 2017 by hagoth7

[jkwilliams]

Just now, hagoth7 said:

Not really.

They are probably looking for what might trigger might trigger people to consider themselves on the outskirts. And what might be done to remedy that. 

The other questions may serve to help fill that query.

Maybe so. Not having the rest of the survey at hand makes it difficult to contextualize. On its own, it's a strange question.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, juliann said:

Can you remember more questions? Survey questions are always hard to answer because they don't give you shades of gray.

Yes, my memory is such I can remember 95% of every question. 

[JLHPROF]

A bit strange.
I'd have thought if the Church wanted a random sampling a targeted computer survey would be more accurate.

[Guest]

43 minutes ago, juliann said:

I think a key point of this was that it was handed out to entire wards rather than the random sampling usual stuff.  

True, even to missionaries, all were asked to take part, or not too. It was not a requirement, it was a request. 

[rpn]

On other mormon or sort of mormon sites, there has been info on a recent survey that sounds quite similar, the standard computer survey the church sends out to randomly to registered emails.   It is possible that they are comparing the responses when asked to answer as part of a group and as an individual from home.   It is possible they are simply trying to understand how best to serve members and support them.  (The whole purpose of the church is to help people become what  they wanted in teh pre-existence to become on earth and RWH, as well as administer ordinances with authority.    To the extent that the institutional church forgets or moves away from or fails to achieve that purpose, it isn't doing anyone any good.)

[ALarson]

42 minutes ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

Yes, my memory is such I can remember 95% of every question. 

Can you list the ones you remember?  I think many are interested to see more of them.

[juliann]

46 minutes ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

Yes, my memory is such I can remember 95% of every question. 

If you can remember can you tell us?

[clarkgoble]

4 hours ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

Yesterday in the third hour, all the adult members were asked to assemble. At which time we were all handed out questionnaires, that contained some very odd questions. We were told that only 50 Wards in the U.S. and Canada were selected to take part. Questions ranged from Ward or Stake callings, Temple worthiness, depression and connecting difficulties with each. One question even asked if "we thought we might be active in the Church five years from now". 

No one was to put their names on them, except for Bishopric and a few other leadership callings, and they were to be sealed in bags, where no one in the Ward could read them, not even Bishopric. We were all hold it was not required to take part, and could leave if we did not want to take part. It is one of the most odd things my wife and I, and my adult children were ever asked to do. Some members were quietly audible, in frustration as to what the questions meant, and how to reply. It was no secret, and no one was told they could not speak of it. Did anyone here experience this yesterday? 

If so, what were your feelings about the questions and the choices given to reply? 

I was in primary (new calling dealing with the hyperactive 11 year olds at church rather than the hyperactive 9 year olds in scouts) but I didn't hear of anything like that.

The questions as described seem odd. I'm always wary of sociology type questions that treat self-judgment as indicative of having the property. People often are poor at judging their own state so a lot of these questions get at some pet peeves of mine. However as friends have noted I sometimes have big issues with a lot of the way sociologists draw up surveys and the things they take from those surveys. While there definitely are good sociologists bad ones definitely outnumber the good ones.  This sounds like one of those studies that will inexorably lead to misleading interpretations. Both because of the methodology (asking people to fill them out in a public setting and expecting honest answers), the questions (predicting if you're active), and the distribution (apparently whole wards that likely aren't representative due to the very nature of wards). I hope whomever is compiling the data recognizes the limits and more importantly communicates it to those leaders reading the results who aren't as familiar with the statistical issues or the difference between self-reported properties and properties.

Heck, I'm pretty skeptical of very carefully done studies like Pew which clearly have people reporting what they think they ought be doing and not what they actually are doing. (Huge rates of temple recommend and tithing payment not to mention church attendance) And Pew is doing what they can to avoid that. A survey like this one is just going to have a lot of distorted answers.

Edited September 18, 2017 by clarkgoble

[clarkgoble]

35 minutes ago, rpn said:

On other mormon or sort of mormon sites, there has been info on a recent survey that sounds quite similar, the standard computer survey the church sends out to randomly to registered emails.   It is possible that they are comparing the responses when asked to answer as part of a group and as an individual from home.   It is possible they are simply trying to understand how best to serve members and support them.  (The whole purpose of the church is to help people become what  they wanted in teh pre-existence to become on earth and RWH, as well as administer ordinances with authority.    To the extent that the institutional church forgets or moves away from or fails to achieve that purpose, it isn't doing anyone any good.)

Doing a comparison makes some sense, although I'm not clear what they're hoping to learn from that.

I'm sure they are trying to find out how to better serve people, but the worry is that this will give a very bad indication of where the problems actually are. They're naive if they think the responses will be representative even of people's actual beliefs let alone their actual behavior.

There are questions I think would be useful to ask in this method. I'd love to know member's perceptions of polygamy, certain racist doctrines and their continued acceptance, and a bunch else. Even if the results wouldn't be trustworthy in a quantifiable way, from a purely qualitative sense it'd be useful to know how old 20th century doctrines persist among the members. Or for that matter to get a qualitative idea of member's understanding of many doctrines. That doesn't sound like what they did though. (Correct me if I'm wrong)

The questions about mental health might be interesting as well. Again more from a qualitative sense rather than trustworthy figures. It's fair to assume as significant portion of the church has suffered depression for instance. But it'd be nice to know some of the issues related to that. Depression and anxiety obviously affect ability to do callings. While usually I'm complaining about people not taking callings or not doing the callings they're assigned, at the same time I'm rather aware of why sometimes people can't do them well.