Guest Posted September 18, 2017 Posted September 18, 2017 41 minutes ago, juliann said: If you can remember can you tell us? Many questions had number values, translated into how often do you... Pray individually Pray as a family Read the Scriptures Use Church Apps to read scriptures or lesson materials Other questions asked questions about callings and Temple attendance, with "yes or no" answers... What callings do you have Do you find your callings fulfilling Do you feel over whelmed Do you feel Temple Worthy Do you have a Temple Recommend Do you feel overwhelmed or depressed trying to maintain such levels of activity Do you drive to Church Are you driven to Church Do you home or visit teach Do missionary work Do you feel pressured to share the gospel Have you shared the gospel with anyone Does sharing the gospel bring you joy Would you like me to list more questions? Or does this give you an idea, I can go on if you like, Juliann? 2
Johnnie Cake Posted September 18, 2017 Posted September 18, 2017 (edited) 28 minutes ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said: Pray individually no Pray as a family no Read the Scriptures no Use Church Apps to read scriptures or lesson materials no Other questions asked questions about callings and Temple attendance, with "yes or no" answers... What callings do you have none Do you find your callings fulfilling very much so...extremely happy with no callings Do you feel over whelmed Nope Do you feel Temple Worthy Yes but I don't attend Do you have a Temple Recommend Nope Do you feel overwhelmed or depressed trying to maintain such levels of activity Used to but not any more Do you drive to Church Don't attend Are you driven to Church n/a Do you home or visit teach not any more Do missionary work yes but for a different team Do you feel pressured to share the gospel not at all Have you shared the gospel with anyone yes Does sharing the gospel bring you joy let me count the ways Who ever said wickedness was not happiness....was lying or had no idea what they were talking about Edited September 18, 2017 by Johnnie Cake
Guest Posted September 18, 2017 Posted September 18, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, ALarson said: Can you list the ones you remember? I think many are interested to see more of them. I did some on Juliann's post, see above. Edited September 18, 2017 by Bill "Papa" Lee 1
mfbukowski Posted September 18, 2017 Posted September 18, 2017 2 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said: I agree...I was an Uber TBM, fully active, temple going...until I wasn't...I had no pre conceived notion of ever leaving...the church was my life and gave it meaning...until it no longer did. And yet you still find purpose in opposing it. Interesting. 2
rockpond Posted September 18, 2017 Posted September 18, 2017 I am serving in YM so I'm not sure if a survey went out to the RS/Elders/HP during third hour. I didn't hear anything about it. But, I hope they get accurate data that helps.
Hamba Tuhan Posted September 18, 2017 Posted September 18, 2017 3 hours ago, jkwilliams said: Does anyone plan on leaving the church? Not in my experience. Yeah, I don't suspect most people plan on it. At the same time, I've been struck by how many online apostates have mentioned how miserable they were in the Church and how relieved they eventually were to discover it wasn't true. Quote If you had asked me a month before my crisis of faith if I thought I would ever leave the church, I would have said no. No comment on your situation, John, since I don't know much about you, but your statement above made me think. I've been in my current ward for going on 15 years. During that time, we've had nine people that I'm aware of who have formally left the Church. Two of them were complete surprises to me. The other seven I watched fade over the course of several years. I suspect their final loss of faith caught most of them by surprise, but the whole process was obvious enough to ward leadership that we'd frequently discussed how to help arrest it. In the end, though, one can't help people who don't want to be helped. We had leadership training with Elder Bednar in 2015, and when an elders quorum president asked, 'What should I say to my quorum members who insist they're too busy to be fully engaged in the work of salvation?', he replied, 'You're obligated to tell them the truth, which is that they are taking themselves out of the Church by their choices. I don't know if it will take two years or 12 years, but let them know that they won't be with us for very much longer'. 3
Johnnie Cake Posted September 18, 2017 Posted September 18, 2017 (edited) 30 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said: Yeah, I don't suspect most people plan on it. At the same time, I've been struck by how many online apostates have mentioned how miserable they were in the Church and how relieved they eventually were to discover it wasn't true. No comment on your situation, John, since I don't know much about you, but your statement above made me think. I've been in my current ward for going on 15 years. During that time, we've had nine people that I'm aware of who have formally left the Church. Two of them were complete surprises to me. The other seven I watched fade over the course of several years. I suspect their final loss of faith caught most of them by surprise, but the whole process was obvious enough to ward leadership that we'd frequently discussed how to help arrest it. In the end, though, one can't help people who don't want to be helped. We had leadership training with Elder Bednar in 2015, and when an elders quorum president asked, 'What should I say to my quorum members who insist they're too busy to be fully engaged in the work of salvation?', he replied, 'You're obligated to tell them the truth, which is that they are taking themselves out of the Church by their choices. I don't know if it will take two years or 12 years, but let them know that they won't be with us for very much longer'. I loved the church, loved serving in various leadership callings EQ Pres, bishopric, ym pres, high council...it wasn't until I concluded that it wasn't what I believed it to be that attending church became miserable Edited September 18, 2017 by Johnnie Cake
Hamba Tuhan Posted September 18, 2017 Posted September 18, 2017 4 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said: I loved the church, loved serving in various leadership callings EQ Pres, bishopric, ym pres, high council... What specifically did you love about it?
mfbukowski Posted September 18, 2017 Posted September 18, 2017 A pedantic point: There are many wards who actually start with "The Third Hour" though I suppose not in Utah. And not all start at 9 Am!! I know that is a shocker! I suggest that one name the meeting attended instead of the time the meeting starts or or the order in which meetings happening, assuming that your ward is the Universal Ward. We need to think a little more universally here. Dare I say catholically around here? Look it up!
jkwilliams Posted September 19, 2017 Posted September 19, 2017 1 hour ago, mfbukowski said: And yet you still find purpose in opposing it. Interesting. As you said, everyone needs a purpose in life.
jkwilliams Posted September 19, 2017 Posted September 19, 2017 45 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said: I loved the church, loved serving in various leadership callings EQ Pres, bishopric, ym pres, high council...it wasn't until I concluded that it wasn't what I believed it to be that attending church became miserable When my faith went, I called one of my closest friends, who had been my mission companion and college roommate. He had left about 5 years before I did. He asked me what I was going to do. I told him I was going to stay in the church because I loved the church and was happy in it. He chuckled and said, "Give it 3 months. It will change." Of course he was right. Standing back and looking at my life from a different perspective, I realized I hadn't been particularly happy in the church. In fact, I had been clinically depressed for years but had never acknowledged it because I told myself how happy I was
Johnnie Cake Posted September 19, 2017 Posted September 19, 2017 15 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said: What specifically did you love about it? The church and its doctrines defined my life. Gave meaning and purpose to life itself. Gave hope and the promise of life after death and the promise of eternal life with my family. I believed in its promises to the core of my being. I was devastated and It broke my heart to learn that it was all a false promise built on a fraud.
Guest Posted September 19, 2017 Posted September 19, 2017 39 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said: The church and its doctrines defined my life. Gave meaning and purpose to life itself. Gave hope and the promise of life after death and the promise of eternal life with my family. I believed in its promises to the core of my being. I was devastated and It broke my heart to learn that it was all a false promise built on a fraud. I never thought that this thread might take up such a direction. If you can within the rules of this website, define the "fraud" you speak of, here are in another thread.
Johnnie Cake Posted September 19, 2017 Posted September 19, 2017 23 minutes ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said: I never thought that this thread might take up such a direction. If you can within the rules of this website, define the "fraud" you speak of, here are in another thread. I was asked a question and I answered it honestly from my perspective...I am under no delusion that believers share my perspective...and I accept that you and others do not share my POV
jkwilliams Posted September 19, 2017 Posted September 19, 2017 3 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said: I was asked a question and I answered it honestly from my perspective...I am under no delusion that believers share my perspective...and I accept that you and others do not share my POV I don't use the word "fraud" for two reasons: 1) it's offensive to church members and more importantly 2) I have no idea if the church qualifies as a "fraud." Joseph Smith could have been totally sincere. I don't know. But I do say that "I have concluded that the church is not what I believed it to be." 2
Guest Posted September 19, 2017 Posted September 19, 2017 58 minutes ago, jkwilliams said: I don't use the word "fraud" for two reasons: 1) it's offensive to church members and more importantly 2) I have no idea if the church qualifies as a "fraud." Joseph Smith could have been totally sincere. I don't know. But I do say that "I have concluded that the church is not what I believed it to be." I respect that, you know I do, and it is not my calling to make you feel otherwise. I am under no illusion that anything I might say or do, will matter to anyone. I ask Johnnie to define what he calls a "fraud", or do so in a thread when it can be addressed properly. Not that I might be able to answer any concerns, but that others might. I am the youngest child in my family, I couldn't lead my three siblings through the kitchen door for a Thankgiving meal. So, I have no illusions that anything I say, could make a difference in anyone's like but my own, and even then, I have doubts in fact, doubts fill much of my daily life, in my ability to make a difference. So, I punch and kneel my way though them, sometimes it helps, and sometimes it does not. Anyway...
jkwilliams Posted September 19, 2017 Posted September 19, 2017 18 minutes ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said: I respect that, you know I do, and it is not my calling to make you feel otherwise. I am under no illusion that anything I might say or do, will matter to anyone. I ask Johnnie to define what he calls a "fraud", or do so in a thread when it can be addressed properly. Not that I might be able to answer any concerns, but that others might. I am the youngest child in my family, I couldn't lead my three siblings through the kitchen door for a Thankgiving meal. So, I have no illusions that anything I say, could make a difference in anyone's like but my own, and even then, I have doubts in fact, doubts fill much of my daily life, in my ability to make a difference. So, I punch and kneel my way though them, sometimes it helps, and sometimes it does not. Anyway... Thanks for that. I was just trying to say that perhaps we ought to be less black and white in what we say. Telling people their religion is a "fraud" will shut down any dialogue in seconds. We all believe different things, so I figure why not just respect those differences? 2
Jeanne Posted September 19, 2017 Posted September 19, 2017 5 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said: The church and its doctrines defined my life. Gave meaning and purpose to life itself. Gave hope and the promise of life after death and the promise of eternal life with my family. I believed in its promises to the core of my being. I was devastated and It broke my heart to learn that it was all a false promise built on a fraud. This sounds a lot about what I went through...at the time..if felt the more I loved the church..the more hurt by it I became.
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