I don't believe in Evolution because No Death before the Fall is in the scriptures

[SamuelTheLamanite]

2 Ne 2:22: "And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end."  

Thank goodness we have modern prophets that interpret our scriptures. We all know D&C 89:9 needed interpretation, we also have interpretation for 2 Ne 2:22.  In General Conference Elder Nelson taught, "The creation of a paradisiacal planet came from God. Mortality and death came into the world through the Fall of Adam" and again in General Conference Elder McConkie taught, "True believers know that this earth and man and all forms of life were created in an Edenic, or paradisiacal, state in which there was no mortality, no procreation, no death"   

I don't believe God is a God of confusion, I do believe General Authorities act as prophets during General Conference, a time when millions of faithful latter day saints are listening. Nothing taught by other General Authorities in General Conference contradicts the teaching that there was no death before the Fall.  Elder Hales taught, "These conferences are always under the direction of the Lord, guided by His Spirit. We are not assigned specific topics. Over weeks and months, often through sleepless nights, we wait upon the Lord. Through fasting, praying, studying, and pondering, we learn the message that He wants us to give" 

Lastly, I know our world appears to be old and the fossil record tells a story of millions of years of Evolution, but Elder Eyring taught, "The truth that matters most is verified only by revelation from God. Our human reason and the use of our physical senses will not be enough...The Lord taught His Apostle Thomas, who wanted physical evidence of the Savior’s Resurrection by touching His wounds, that revelation is safer evidence"      

Edited August 26, 2017 by SamuelTheLamanite

[ksfisher]

5 minutes ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

2 Ne 2:22: "And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end."  

Thank goodness we have modern prophets that interpret our scriptures. We all know D&C 89:9 needed interpretation, we also have interpretation for 2 Ne 2:22.  In General Conference Elder Nelson taught, "The creation of a paradisiacal planet came from God. Mortality and death came into the world through the Fall of Adam" and again in General Conference Elder McConkie taught, "True believers know that this earth and man and all forms of life were created in an Edenic, or paradisiacal, state in which there was no mortality, no procreation, no death"   

I don't believe God is a God of confusion, I do believe General Authorities act as prophets during General Conference, a time when millions of faithful latter day saints are listening. Nothing taught by other General Authorities in General Conference contradicts the teaching that there was no death before the Fall.  Elder Hales taught, "These conferences are always under the direction of the Lord, guided by His Spirit. We are not assigned specific topics. Over weeks and months, often through sleepless nights, we wait upon the Lord. Through fasting, praying, studying, and pondering, we learn the message that He wants us to give" 

Lastly, I know our world appears to be old and the fossil record tells a story of millions of years of Evolution, but Elder Irving taught, "The truth that matters most is verified only by revelation from God. Our human reason and the use of our physical senses will not be enough...The Lord taught His Apostle Thomas, who wanted physical evidence of the Savior’s Resurrection by touching His wounds, that revelation is safer evidence"      

Is there anything you want to discuss or are you just trying to provoke a reaction?

[SamuelTheLamanite]

11 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

Is there anything you want to discuss or are you just trying to provoke a reaction?

I am sharing my perspective, someone here told me that it was just my own readings of scriptures. I believe the teachings in General Conference, I invite others to do the same. 

Edited August 26, 2017 by SamuelTheLamanite

[JAHS]

28 minutes ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

2 Ne 2:22: "And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end."  

Thank goodness we have modern prophets that interpret our scriptures. We all know D&C 89:9 needed interpretation, we also have interpretation for 2 Ne 2:22.  In General Conference Elder Nelson taught, "The creation of a paradisiacal planet came from God. Mortality and death came into the world through the Fall of Adam" and again in General Conference Elder McConkie taught, "True believers know that this earth and man and all forms of life were created in an Edenic, or paradisiacal, state in which there was no mortality, no procreation, no death"   

I don't believe God is a God of confusion, I do believe General Authorities act as prophets during General Conference, a time when millions of faithful latter day saints are listening. Nothing taught by other General Authorities in General Conference contradicts the teaching that there was no death before the Fall.  Elder Hales taught, "These conferences are always under the direction of the Lord, guided by His Spirit. We are not assigned specific topics. Over weeks and months, often through sleepless nights, we wait upon the Lord. Through fasting, praying, studying, and pondering, we learn the message that He wants us to give" 

Lastly, I know our world appears to be old and the fossil record tells a story of millions of years of Evolution, but Elder Irving taught, "The truth that matters most is verified only by revelation from God. Our human reason and the use of our physical senses will not be enough...The Lord taught His Apostle Thomas, who wanted physical evidence of the Savior’s Resurrection by touching His wounds, that revelation is safer evidence"      

I am a scientist and consider God as the head scientist. He already knows how it all works since He is the one who set it all in motion. I have a feeling He gets quite a chuckle as he watches us mortal scientists here on earth fumble around in the laboratory and in the earth, trying to figure out for ourselves how life began. It's one of the first questions I will be asking Him when I get there, but I am afraid we will all have to wait till we get there to know the answer. And it's a good thing that knowing the answer in this lifetime has absolutely no bearing on our quest for eternal life.

[katherine the great]

35 minutes ago, JAHS said:

I am a scientist and consider God as the head scientist. He already knows how it all works since He is the one who set it all in motion. I have a feeling He gets quite a chuckle as he watches us mortal scientists here on earth fumble around in the laboratory and in the earth, trying to figure out for ourselves how life began. It's one of the first questions I will be asking Him when I get there, but I am afraid we will all have to wait till we get there to know the answer. And it's a good thing that knowing the answer in this lifetime has absolutely no bearing on our quest for eternal life.

Ditto.

 

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

2 Ne 2:22: "And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end."  

Thank goodness we have modern prophets that interpret our scriptures. We all know D&C 89:9 needed interpretation, we also have interpretation for 2 Ne 2:22.  In General Conference Elder Nelson taught, "The creation of a paradisiacal planet came from God. Mortality and death came into the world through the Fall of Adam" and again in General Conference Elder McConkie taught, "True believers know that this earth and man and all forms of life were created in an Edenic, or paradisiacal, state in which there was no mortality, no procreation, no death"   

I don't believe God is a God of confusion, I do believe General Authorities act as prophets during General Conference, a time when millions of faithful latter day saints are listening. Nothing taught by other General Authorities in General Conference contradicts the teaching that there was no death before the Fall.  Elder Hales taught, "These conferences are always under the direction of the Lord, guided by His Spirit. We are not assigned specific topics. Over weeks and months, often through sleepless nights, we wait upon the Lord. Through fasting, praying, studying, and pondering, we learn the message that He wants us to give" 

Lastly, I know our world appears to be old and the fossil record tells a story of millions of years of Evolution, but Elder Eyring taught, "The truth that matters most is verified only by revelation from God. Our human reason and the use of our physical senses will not be enough...The Lord taught His Apostle Thomas, who wanted physical evidence of the Savior’s Resurrection by touching His wounds, that revelation is safer evidence"      

"I would like to know just what it is that a man must be required to believe to be a member of this Church. Or, what it is that he is not permitted to believe, and remain a member of this Church. I would like to know just what that is. Is it evolution? I hope not, because I believe in evolution." (David O. McKay, David O. McKay and the Rise of Modern Mormonism, 46)

Quote

You take, for instance, our geologists, and they tell us that this earth has been in existence for thousands and millions of years. They think, and they have good reason for their faith, that their researches and investigations enable them to demonstrate that this earth has been in existence as long as they assert it has; and they say, "If the Lord, as religionists declare, made the earth out of nothing in six days, six thousand years ago, our studies are all vain; but by what we can learn from nature and the immutable laws of the Creator as revealed therein, we know that your theories are incorrect and consequently we must reject your religions as false and vain; we must be what you call infidels, with the demonstrated truths of science in our possession; or, rejecting those truths, become enthusiasts in, what you call, Christianity.

In these respects we differ from the Christian world, for our religion will not clash with or contradict the facts of science in any particular. You may take geology, for instance, and it is a true science; not that I would say for a moment that all the conclusions and deductions of its professors are true, but its leading principles are; they are facts--they are eternal; and to assert that the Lord made this earth out of nothing is preposterous and impossible. God never made something out of nothing; it is not in the economy or law by which the worlds were, are, or will exist. There is an eternity before us, and it is full of matter; and if we but understand enough of the Lord and his ways, we would say that he took of this matter and organized this earth from it. How long it has been organized it is not for me to say, and I do not care anything about it. As for the Bible account of the creation we may say that the Lord gave it to Moses, or rather Moses obtained the history and traditions of the fathers, and from these picked out what he considered necessary, and that account has been handed down from age to age, and we have got it, no matter whether it is correct or not, and whether the Lord found the earth empty and void, whether he made it out of nothing or out of the rude elements; or whether he made it in six days or in as many millions of years, is and will remain a matter of speculation in the minds of men unless he give revelation on the subject. If we understood the process of creation there would be no mystery about it, it would be all reasonable and plain, for there is no mystery except to the ignorant.  Brigham Young,  Journal of Discourses, 14:115-116 (14 May 1871).

 

Edited August 26, 2017 by Robert F. Smith

[SamuelTheLamanite]

24 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

"I would like to know just what it is that a man must be required to believe to be a member of this Church. Or, what it is that he is not permitted to believe, and remain a member of this Church. I would like to know just what that is. Is it evolution? I hope not, because I believe in evolution." (David O. McKay, David O. McKay and the Rise of Modern Mormonism, 46)

True, and you don't have to believe the Book of Mormon is historical.  You can believe in Evolution and still go to the Temple. You can believe anything you want as long as you don't engage in sinful behavior.  

However, I choose to believe the General Conference teachings. To repeat Elder Hales taught, "These conferences are always under the direction of the Lord, guided by His Spirit. We are not assigned specific topics. Over weeks and months, often through sleepless nights, we wait upon the Lord. Through fasting, praying, studying, and pondering, we learn the message that He wants us to give"  

Please note that David O. McKay and the Rise of Modern Mormonism, 46 is not a general conference talk, it is not even a church publication. 

Edited August 26, 2017 by SamuelTheLamanite

[SamuelTheLamanite]

2 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, 14:115-116 (14 May 1871).

There are many teachings in the Journal of Discourses volumes that we don't believe. It is possible that Satan with his power changed some passages,  D&C section 10 tells us that it can happen. 

[deli_llama]

26 minutes ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

There are many teachings in the Journal of Discourses volumes that we don't believe. It is possible that Satan with his power changed some passages,  D&C section 10 tells us that it can happen. 

That is an interesting position and posture to take concerning D&C 10 given how the section goes on to finish up. 

[Gray]

5 hours ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

2 Ne 2:22: "And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end."  

Thank goodness we have modern prophets that interpret our scriptures. We all know D&C 89:9 needed interpretation, we also have interpretation for 2 Ne 2:22.  In General Conference Elder Nelson taught, "The creation of a paradisiacal planet came from God. Mortality and death came into the world through the Fall of Adam" and again in General Conference Elder McConkie taught, "True believers know that this earth and man and all forms of life were created in an Edenic, or paradisiacal, state in which there was no mortality, no procreation, no death"   

I don't believe God is a God of confusion, I do believe General Authorities act as prophets during General Conference, a time when millions of faithful latter day saints are listening. Nothing taught by other General Authorities in General Conference contradicts the teaching that there was no death before the Fall.  Elder Hales taught, "These conferences are always under the direction of the Lord, guided by His Spirit. We are not assigned specific topics. Over weeks and months, often through sleepless nights, we wait upon the Lord. Through fasting, praying, studying, and pondering, we learn the message that He wants us to give" 

Lastly, I know our world appears to be old and the fossil record tells a story of millions of years of Evolution, but Elder Eyring taught, "The truth that matters most is verified only by revelation from God. Our human reason and the use of our physical senses will not be enough...The Lord taught His Apostle Thomas, who wanted physical evidence of the Savior’s Resurrection by touching His wounds, that revelation is safer evidence"      

 

I don't believe in childbirth because Genesis teaches that men come from mud and women come from ribs. Or maybe I'm missing the point of that story?

[ttribe]

[Calm]

2 hours ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

There are many teachings in the Journal of Discourses volumes that we don't believe. It is possible that Satan with his power changed some passages,  D&C section 10 tells us that it can happen. 

I am curious, perhaps I have missed it, but have you explained why the Apostles and First Presidency---some (all?) of who are regents of BYU---are allowing the false doctrine of evolution to be taught to all the students at BYU instead of removing it from the curriculum?

[3DOP]

Hi Samuel.

I have other reasons for disbelieving the present view of science. But I applaud the Mormonism that leads you to your present place. I can't believe in evolution. It is incredible to me. It is easier, far easier for me to believe God made all animate life and non-living things too, as they are. Gradually developing eyeballs and reproductive capacities and life itself are beyond what I can believe without help from some other source than what "science" says. I need more faith to believe in the "science" of evolution than I do to believe that God just made things.

Some of the "scientists" on the board will use "authority" to assert their claims of evolution without any real ability to explain it. The "science" community believes it. Of course I know that. They aren't stupid. I know that. I don't accuse them of being stupid. I just don't and can't believe in evolution, just like some people say they can't believe in God or Jesus. I need help from on high if evolution is true. I don't see any revelation, whether Latter or Former-day that affirms evolution. (BYU notwithstanding Cal), I am glad if your prophets seem reluctant to accept the prophets and priests who promote evolution. 

3DOP

Edited August 27, 2017 by 3DOP

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

There are many teachings in the Journal of Discourses volumes that we don't believe. It is possible that Satan with his power changed some passages,  D&C section 10 tells us that it can happen. 

The JD is a reliable record of the speeches of the Brethren, specialists being assigned to take verbatim dictation.  That does not give the words revelatory or doctrinal status any more than more recent speeches of the Brethren.   They are certainly entitled to their opinions. You are probably not even aware of the strong disputes about science and evolution among the Brethren back  in the day when Elder McConkie's father-in-law (Joseph Fielding Smith) could not agree with Elder's Widtsoe and Talmage (both scientists).  http://www.deseretnews.com/article/705371651/LDS-apostles-sought-truth-in-science-and-religion.html .

Not only did Pres McKay believe in evolution, but the entire biology faculty at BYU believes in evolution.

[Robert F. Smith]

4 hours ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

.........................................................  

Please note that David O. McKay and the Rise of Modern Mormonism, 46 is not a general conference talk, it is not even a church publication. 

True enough, but I hope that you will grant him the right to have an opinion -- just like you and me.

[Calm]

2 hours ago, 3DOP said:

Hi Samuel.

I have other reasons for disbelieving the present view of science. But I applaud the Mormonism that leads you to your present place. I can't believe in evolution. It is incredible to me. It is easier, far easier for me to believe God made all animate life and non-living things too, as they are. Gradually developing eyeballs and reproductive capacities and life itself are beyond what I can believe without help from some other source than what "science" says. I need more faith to believe in the "science" of evolution than I do to believe that God just made things.

Some of the "scientists" on the board will use "authority" to assert their claims of evolution without any real ability to explain it. The "science" community believes it. Of course I know that. They aren't stupid. I know that. I don't accuse them of being stupid. I just don't and can't believe in evolution, just like some people say they can't believe in God or Jesus. I need help from on high if evolution is true. I don't see any revelation, whether Latter or Former-day that affirms evolution. (BYU notwithstanding Cal), I am glad if your prophets seem reluctant to accept the prophets and priests who promote evolution. 

3DOP

Most Mormons I know who believe in evolution see it as God setting up the world to develop in a certain way and then letting it develop on its own, possibly with some nudging here and there to keep on track.  Most also believe Man may be a special creation even if the rest of the world developed through evolution as generally imagined.  Also that God may have seeded the first life rather than having it randomly appear out of nowhere (perhaps through panspermia).

Evolution, if the source of the variety of life on Earth, is God's tool, not independent of him.

Pure speculation.....Perhaps the spiritual side of creation, being more advanced in development was able to provide something like metaDNA that causes the world to grow and go through stages just as animals do.  

There are many ways for directed evolution to occur by setting up the environment (and how it will change over time) that the organisms exist in.  

[cinepro]

21 minutes ago, Calm said:

There are many ways for directed evolution to occur by setting up the environment (and how it will change over time) that the organisms exist in.  

But all those ways require countless cycles of birth, mutation and physical death before the Fall of Adam.

[Freedom]

Evolution, like electricity, is not something you can believe in or not, it is scientific fact. It will continue to be true no matter how much quote mining you do or how many verses you take out of context. 

[SamuelTheLamanite]

52 minutes ago, Freedom said:

Evolution, like electricity, is not something you can believe in or not, it is scientific fact. It will continue to be true no matter how much quote mining you do or how many verses you take out of context. 

I quoted General Conference teachings. I believe God has the power to change our planet and make it appear old with millions of years of Evolution.  

Edited August 27, 2017 by SamuelTheLamanite

[SamuelTheLamanite]

5 hours ago, Calm said:

I am curious, perhaps I have missed it, but have you explained why the Apostles and First Presidency---some (all?) of who are regents of BYU---are allowing the false doctrine of evolution to be taught to all the students at BYU instead of removing it from the curriculum?

BYU is a university, not a church. Is the No Death before the Fall teaching false doctrine? The First Presidency allows No Death before the Fall doctrine to be taught in General Conference, church manuals, and even the Bible dictionary.  

[SamuelTheLamanite]

5 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

The JD is a reliable record of the speeches of the Brethren, specialists being assigned to take verbatim dictation.  That does not give the words revelatory or doctrinal status any more than more recent speeches of the Brethren.   

I understand, most of it is probably reliable, but it is possible that some parts were changed by Satan. The scriptures teach that Satan does have power, see Exodus 7:10 for example.  I don't think the changes mentioned in D&C 10:10-13 were obvious, they had to look real. 

5 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

 They are certainly entitled to their opinions.

 I believe what Elder Hales told us about modern general conference talks. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established. The teaching of No Death before the Fall is found in at least two modern General Conference talks, I find it hard to believe it was not inspired.   

5 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

The JD is a reliable record of the speeches of the Brethren, specialists being assigned to take verbatim dictation.  That does not give the words revelatory or doctrinal status any more than more recent speeches of the Brethren.   They are certainly entitled to their opinions. You are probably not even aware of the strong disputes about science and evolution among the Brethren back  in the day when Elder McConkie's father-in-law (Joseph Fielding Smith) could not agree with Elder's Widtsoe and Talmage (both scientists).

I understand, Elder Christofferson taught, "At the same time it should be remembered that not every statement made by a Church leader, past or present, necessarily constitutes doctrine. It is commonly understood in the Church that a statement made by one leader on a single occasion often represents a personal, though well-considered, opinion, not meant to be official or binding for the whole Church. The Prophet Joseph Smith taught that “a prophet [is] a prophet only when he [is] acting as such.”" 

The Evolution views of Elder Widtsoe and Talmage were never taught in General Conference or church manuals.   The No death before the Fall doctrine was not taught just on a single occasion.   

Edited August 27, 2017 by SamuelTheLamanite

[Calm]

1 hour ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

BYU is a university, not a church. Is the No Death before the Fall teaching false doctrine? The First Presidency allows No Death before the Fall doctrine to be taught in General Conference, church manuals, and even the Bible dictionary.  

No death before the Fall is not false doctrine in my opinion, I don't think one has to choose because I don't understand it in the same way you do.

 You apparently see evolution as false doctrine/teaching, correct?

And the Prophet and Apostles allow physical death before the fall to be taught and evolution in the Church's schools.

How can that be moral if they know evolution is false?

Edited August 27, 2017 by Calm

[Kevin Christensen]

No death before the fall refers to the garden.  And I can see no reason to suppose that a garden for two people filled the entire planet.  "Tend and keep this set of continents and oceans and polar chaps, and islands?"  Nor do the scriptures spent any much time on what went on before the garden or outside the garden or what was happening on the worlds without number that had been created and destroyed previous to an account of happenings on this earth.  It ought to be clear that different conditions existed outside the garden than inside which is why leaving involved such a notable change.  Nor is it necessary or wise to confuse a ritual drama with a science text.  Nor is it wise to suppose that one can read an ancient text in translation with modern presuppositions and understand it as the ancients did.  Nor is it wise to suppose that the express limitations on "the authority of my servants" bluntly spelled out in D&C 1:24-28 don't exist and have no application in trying to shore up one's pet theories and authorities.

FWIW

Kevin Christensen

Bethel Park, PA

[Atheist Mormon]

Quote

I don't believe in Evolution because No Death before the Fall is in the scriptures

That is the most unnecessary emotion to ascertain the facts about Evolution. Facts would suffice.

[Robert F. Smith]

7 hours ago, cinepro said:

But all those ways require countless cycles of birth, mutation and physical death before the Fall of Adam.

Apparently all living things on Earth share the same DNA as the blueprint of life, and an LDS anthropologist friend of mine thinks that evolution is merely God's way of managing progressive creational steps, until we get to the liturgical scene in the Garden, which is a temple rite just like any modern temple rite.  The Fall is  merely part of that liturgical rite.  The actors are following a cosmic script.

Brother Brigham, on the other hand, argues that humans are always born the same way and that the archetypal man (adam ":man') and archetypal woman were born the same way all children are born -- through human reproduction.  But from another planet.  Thus, no evolution or special creation are involved, but rather transmission from elsewhere.  The notion that man is created from dirt and that eve is created from a rib is thus purely figurative, and a Hebrew play on words (adam "man" made from adama "dirt").  After all, dirt does consist of the elements which do compose all living things anyhow.  So there is even some truth in the wordplay.  We need to be far more clever in evaluating Scripture.