Updated church statement - White culture

[hope_for_things]

I'm not sure why the last thread was closed, but I'm going to risk it and post this, since the church made an update to their earlier statement, and this is really blowing up on social media, so I think its relevant for our message board as well.  Jana Riess posted this really well written blog post on the back and forth and the reactions from this somewhat infamous "Wife With A Purpose" and her tweets.  She's going right back at the church, and personally I hope she does self select out of the church over this issue.

http://religionnews.com/2017/08/15/lds-church-rebukes-mormon-white-supremacists-who-rebuke-the-church-right-back/

Any thoughts on the drama happening, or the church's statement.  I'm really pleased with the statement, I think its the best and most clear statement we've seen on racism from the church to date.  Yahoo, I agree with an official church statement on something!!  It feels good.  :-)  

Quote

It has been called to our attention that there are some among the various pro-white and white supremacy communities who assert that the Church is neutral toward or in support of their views. Nothing could be further from the truth. In the New Testament, Jesus said: “Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself” (Matthew 22:37–39). The Book of Mormon teaches “all are alike unto God” (2 Nephi 26:33).

White supremacist attitudes are morally wrong and sinful, and we condemn them. Church members who promote or pursue a “white culture” or white supremacy agenda are not in harmony with the teachings of the Church. 

 

Edited August 15, 2017 by hope_for_things
grammar

[The Nehor]

Oh, the fallout on this is going to be great. I better get ready:

[ksfisher]

Another thread already open on this topic.  Not sure why Storm Riders post is in the link as it's not the OP.

Edited August 15, 2017 by ksfisher

[Storm Rider]

There is another article under the other section.  I don't quite understand the need, but hey if there are some really stupid people in the world that need everything spelled out in capital letters.......I don't think a message of even this recent clarity will change their mind.

On the other hand I still have yet to find a single LDS friend, acquaintance, or LDS stranger that supports the message of the white supremacists.  Do you know one?

[Duncan]

3 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

There is another article under the other section.  I don't quite understand the need, but hey if there are some really stupid people in the world that need everything spelled out in capital letters.......I don't think a message of even this recent clarity will change their mind.

On the other hand I still have yet to find a single LDS friend, acquaintance, or LDS stranger that supports the message of the white supremacists.  Do you know one?

I do, several actually- although I doubt they have heard of alt-right or wife with a purpose or whatever her name is. The government is bugging their toothpaste so I doubt they are online

[The Nehor]

6 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

There is another article under the other section.  I don't quite understand the need, but hey if there are some really stupid people in the world that need everything spelled out in capital letters.......I don't think a message of even this recent clarity will change their mind.

On the other hand I still have yet to find a single LDS friend, acquaintance, or LDS stranger that supports the message of the white supremacists.  Do you know one?

We have one on the boards here right now. One with an online presence was pointed out a while back. There is one guy I know at church who is a big enough loser to have such beliefs and it would kind of fit with things he has said. Fortunately he only shows up every couple of months to try to get money from the bishop or to try to convince his ex-wife he is spiritual so she will take him back.

Oh, and a large part of my sister-in-laws family is racist. They would deny it but actions speak louder then words. I could see some of them being white supremacists. Most are probably just boring old racists.

Edited August 15, 2017 by The Nehor

[hope_for_things]

15 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

Another thread already open on this topic.  Not sure why Storm Riders post is in the link as it's not the OP.

Sorry, I missed this as I forget about the other section...   

Should I close this thread Storm Rider?  

[Storm Rider]

6 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

We have one on the boards here right now. One with an online presence was pointed out a while back. There is one guy I know at church who is a big enough loser to have such beliefs and it would kind of fit with things he has said. Fortunately he only shows up every couple of months to try to get money from the bishop or to try to convince his ex-wife he is spiritual so she will take him back.

Oh, and a large part of my sister-in-laws family is racist. They would deny it but actions speak louder then words. I could see some of them being white supremacists. Most are probably just boring old racists.

Do they need to be kept secret or is it just for you folks that know the club's password?  

Duncan, yeah, I am not really open to those who want to foist the label on others.  Racism has become the new golden calf of the last few generations as well as a catch all for all things evil.  The reality is that we all hate for a host of reasons - skin color is but one of those reasons. 

Having grown up in the south I have known racists that were real, honest about their thoughts and feelings - they were unapologetic racists.  However, I have never met anyone that supported Adolf Hitler, Nazism, or anything similar.  Now, I take that back - when in the Middle East I found a number of people I met had a copy of Mein Kampf in their office collection of books.  I spoke with one of them about their choice in books and he felt it was a worthwhile read.  I have never read it or felt the need.

[Storm Rider]

I don't know which one was first - I just commented on both.  This is the better location for the article and if it was me I would shut down the other one.

[The Nehor]

8 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

Do they need to be kept secret or is it just for you folks that know the club's password?

I wish they would go away.

8 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

Having grown up in the south I have known racists that were real, honest about their thoughts and feelings - they were unapologetic racists.  However, I have never met anyone that supported Adolf Hitler, Nazism, or anything similar.  Now, I take that back - when in the Middle East I found a number of people I met had a copy of Mein Kampf in their office collection of books.  I spoke with one of them about their choice in books and he felt it was a worthwhile read.  I have never read it or felt the need.

Don't bother. I read it. It's awful. Not just what it is saying. It is a badly written book.

[ttribe]

29 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

There is another article under the other section.  I don't quite understand the need, but hey if there are some really stupid people in the world that need everything spelled out in capital letters.......I don't think a message of even this recent clarity will change their mind.

On the other hand I still have yet to find a single LDS friend, acquaintance, or LDS stranger that supports the message of the white supremacists.  Do you know one?

Here you go: https://twitter.com/apurposefulwife?lang=en

[Scott Lloyd]

I covered the dedication of the Tucson Arizona Temple over the weekend.

Both in his remarks at the cornerstone ceremony and his personal remarks to me the day before inside the temple, President Dieter F. Uchtdorf spoke of diversity, both of God's creation and of God's children. Perhaps this statement was in the back of his mind as he officiated at the temple dedication.

https://www.lds.org/church/news/president-uchtdorf-dedicates-tucson-arizona-temple?lang=eng

[Scott Lloyd]

25 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I wish they would go away.

Don't bother. I read it. It's awful. Not just what it is saying. It is a badly written book.

I'm reading it right now (Mein Kampf). It's a tough slog. Don't know if I'll finish it.

Just trying to get an insight into what would have motivated such murderous intent. So far, I've just seen garden variety racism and nationalism.

Don't know if I'd agree that it's badly written, though. He seems to express himself fairly well. I guess I've seen a lot of writing that is worse.

 

 

Edited August 15, 2017 by Scott Lloyd

[Darren10]

43 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I wish they would go away.

Don't bother. I read it. It's awful. Not just what it is saying. It is a badly written book.

How does the book end?

[Darren10]

I am very glad for this addition from the Church. I am glad they constructed it in a way which is directly to a situation directly affecting the Church and not getting into the politics behind Charlottesville.

Quote

It has been called to our attention that there are some among the various pro-white and white supremacy communities who assert that the Church is neutral toward or in support of their views. Nothing could be further from the truth. In the New Testament, Jesus said: “Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself” (Matthew 22:37–39). The Book of Mormon teaches “all are alike unto God” (2 Nephi 26:33).

White supremacist attitudes are morally wrong and sinful, and we condemn them. Church members who promote or pursue a “white culture” or white supremacy agenda are not in harmony with the teachings of the Church. 

According to my emboldened portion, the Church's name was invoked and called into question and the leaders answered. Good for them. White supremacy is incompatible with the teachings of Jesus Christ.

[Darren10]

1 hour ago, Storm Rider said:

There is another article under the other section.  I don't quite understand the need, but hey if there are some really stupid people in the world that need everything spelled out in capital letters.......I don't think a message of even this recent clarity will change their mind.

On the other hand I still have yet to find a single LDS friend, acquaintance, or LDS stranger that supports the message of the white supremacists.  Do you know one?

I think it's more about protecting the integrity of the church, not to change white supremacist's minds.

[changed]

This is really horrible that anyone would associate this filth with the church.  Anyone who has membership in any of these hateful groups should be excommunicated.  

[The Nehor]

21 minutes ago, Darren10 said:

How does the book end?

WARNING!

SPOILERS:

 

 

[bluebell]

I'm so glad the church came out with this statement.  Not because i think it will change white supremacists minds but because now they can't claim that their beliefs are compatible with the church or the gospel, and everyone on the outside will know exactly where the church stands when members starting publishing such crap.  

[Storm Rider]

2 hours ago, Darren10 said:

I think it's more about protecting the integrity of the church, not to change white supremacist's minds.

Darren, it is the social pressure that before someone can be considered being a human being they must parrot a specific kind of talk and exclude any criticism of all things deemed "moral" as judged by the media and racial activists.  For example, President Trump condemned the actions of all those who committed violence, etc.  However, this has been deemed insufficient that he had, was required, to specifically condemn the white supremacists and ignore the violence and actions of those who apparently showed up to .... do exactly what they did.  Why is it necessary to draw a distinction?

As I have said before, when I am committed to allowing all citizens of the US have an opportunity to bring their concerns to the public square.  Their message is irrelevant to me. I don't think that I, or anyone else, is capable of judging what should and what should not be allowed to be spoken in public.  If we don't like the message we don't have to listen!  We don't have to go to the public square. In fact, no one does; not the media and certainly not those who sole purpose to to "shut people up".  I listened to the head of the ACLU in Washington D.C. who spoke on this issue on NPR.  He was sensible, logical, and without emotion.  He did not care about the message of these people in VA, but he was committed to their right to be there and protest.  He was not overwhelmed by the knee-jerk emotional response that our society has when it comes to racial issues.  

Sometimes we have to take a belt and suspenders approach to things and maybe that was what the Church was doing in this instance.  However, I strongly resist this pressure to cave into a position that is not in sync with reality or the need to completely condemn one side without addressing the same behavior by the other.  A pox on all those who seek violence in the public square where peaceable protest is a right of every citizen.  Would that every person who attended with the sole purpose of shouting down the other side, who did violence, could be put in jail until such time as they understood that they are not the judge of what is and what is not acceptable free speech in this country. 

[Storm Rider]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

I'm so glad the church came out with this statement.  Not because i think it will change white supremacists minds but because now they can't claim that their beliefs are compatible with the church or the gospel, and everyone on the outside will know exactly where the church stands when members starting publishing such crap.  

Bluebell, that is the problem for me. I don't think it will stop those in this movement from continuing to make the same claims.  We all like to belittle the idiots of society - the problem is the mere fact that we so easily demean them rather than trying to understand where their need to believe such a fallacy comes from.  I don't understand these people's minds and I don't know them.  Apparently, not anyone on this board does either; yet we feel compelled to condemn them, belittle them, and make them less than human. Why?  Where does this come from?  I dare say that it does not come from the gospel of Jesus Christ.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

I'm so glad the church came out with this statement.  Not because i think it will change white supremacists minds but because now they can't claim that their beliefs are compatible with the church or the gospel, and everyone on the outside will know exactly where the church stands when members starting publishing such crap.  

I suspect that most will simply say their ideas don't qualify as "white supremacy".  They will find other ways of talking about it without the current language associated with it.

Humans are very adaptable in sinning.

[Duncan]

25 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

Bluebell, that is the problem for me. I don't think it will stop those in this movement from continuing to make the same claims.  We all like to belittle the idiots of society - the problem is the mere fact that we so easily demean them rather than trying to understand where their need to believe such a fallacy comes from.  I don't understand these people's minds and I don't know them.  Apparently, not anyone on this board does either; yet we feel compelled to condemn them, belittle them, and make them less than human. Why?  Where does this come from?  I dare say that it does not come from the gospel of Jesus Christ.

They are Nazi's, what more do you need to understand? We don't want their ideas, we know them , fought a war about them and we don't want even a whiff of Naziism anymore. Even God cast 1/3 of his children out so i'd say casting out started there

Edited August 16, 2017 by Duncan

[Rivers]

It is kind of sad that the church has to come out tell us that racism is bad.

[bluebell]

20 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

Bluebell, that is the problem for me. I don't think it will stop those in this movement from continuing to make the same claims.  We all like to belittle the idiots of society - the problem is the mere fact that we so easily demean them rather than trying to understand where their need to believe such a fallacy comes from.  I don't understand these people's minds and I don't know them.  Apparently, not anyone on this board does either; yet we feel compelled to condemn them, belittle them, and make them less than human. Why?  Where does this come from?  I dare say that it does not come from the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Racism is condemnable. Condemning the condemnable is a part of the gospel of Christ. 

It does not make anyone less than human to do so.