RIP Anti Mormon Literature

[boblloyd91]

http://religionnews.com/2017/07/11/rip-anti-mormon-literature/

Jana Riess wrote an interesting article about the sharp decline in Anti Mormon literature being published. Her theories are that with Mormonism's slowing growth, declining Evangelical concerns about "right theology" and other factors. Others pointed out that in the U.S. Evangelicals are declining as well. It's an interesting article and would love to hear others thoughts. 

[Duncan]

it seems to me that 20 years ago it was other Churches against us and now it seems it's like that has tailed off and it's former members who've taken up the task, the Walter Martins and Ed Deckers have been replaced by Dehlin, Runnells et al.

[cinepro]

I suspect the demand for printed anti-Mormon literature is strongly reduced by the availability of the internet. 

But if it's a reflection of evangelicals caring less about Mormons, then that's probably a good thing.

[hope_for_things]

1 hour ago, boblloyd91 said:

http://religionnews.com/2017/07/11/rip-anti-mormon-literature/

Jana Riess wrote an interesting article about the sharp decline in Anti Mormon literature being published. Her theories are that with Mormonism's slowing growth, declining Evangelical concerns about "right theology" and other factors. Others pointed out that in the U.S. Evangelicals are declining as well. It's an interesting article and would love to hear others thoughts. 

Nice article and I think all Jana's points are valid and contributing reasons for the decline and make sense.  

[Jeanne]

13 minutes ago, cinepro said:

I suspect the demand for printed anti-Mormon literature is strongly reduced by the availability of the internet. 

But if it's a reflection of evangelicals caring less about Mormons, then that's probably a good thing.

I agree with this.  Literature is all on the net and so are the groups and blogs. 

[clarkgoble]

1 hour ago, Duncan said:

it seems to me that 20 years ago it was other Churches against us and now it seems it's like that has tailed off and it's former members who've taken up the task, the Walter Martins and Ed Deckers have been replaced by Dehlin, Runnells et al.

Yes. I think this is right. I also just think that the main threat to Evangelicals no longer is Mormon conversion but moving to the Nones.

[Scott Lloyd]

4 hours ago, Duncan said:

it seems to me that 20 years ago it was other Churches against us and now it seems it's like that has tailed off and it's former members who've taken up the task, the Walter Martins and Ed Deckers have been replaced by Dehlin, Runnells et al.

I think you've nailed it. 

The prime threat today is what Joseph Smith would have characterized as "false brethren". 

It's interesting how the battlefront has changed so much in such a short period of time. 

Edited July 17, 2017 by Scott Lloyd

[Duncan]

14 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I think you've nailed it. 

The prime threat today is what Joseph Smith would have characterized as "false brethren". 

Its interesting how the battlefront has changed so much in such a short period of time. 

Yeah, I'm sure we all recall in 1998 the Baptists coming to "save Utah" and then something switched to the 15 minutes of fame figures like Kate Kelly and Dehlin and you don't really hear anymore about Jesus and Satan being brothers, alas................

[carbon dioxide]

Perhaps some it has to do with the fact that there is really not a whole lot new for the antis to write about.  How many books does one need to rehash the same topics over and over again?  That CES letter that some people talk about has nothing new or interesting in it.  It just the same stuff others have made over decades of time that is  repackaged with a new bow. 

Edited July 18, 2017 by carbon dioxide

[clarkgoble]

28 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said:

Perhaps some it has to do with the fact that there is really not a whole lot new for the antis to write about.  How many books does one need to rehash the same topics over and over again?  That CES letter that some people talk about has nothing new or interesting in it.  It just the same stuff others have made over decades of time that is  repackaged with a new bow. 

As uninspired as the CES Letter is to most of us, it's still night and day better than the crap I usually encountered on my mission from Evangelicals. We sometimes rented the Godmakers just to have a chuckle at what they were saying about us. I mean the stuff Evangelicals used to push makes Alex Jones and InfoWars seem like dry analytic history.

[hagoth7]

10 hours ago, boblloyd91 said:

http://religionnews.com/2017/07/11/rip-anti-mormon-literature/

Jana Riess wrote an interesting article about the sharp decline in Anti Mormon literature being published. Her theories are that with Mormonism's slowing growth, declining Evangelical concerns about "right theology" and other factors. Others pointed out that in the U.S. Evangelicals are declining as well. It's an interesting article and would love to hear others thoughts. 

Either that, or it was the barbecue.

[sunstoned]

From the possible reasons listed in the article, these three seem to make the most sense to me:

 

Some topics are so comprehensively covered online now that only the oldest and least Internet-savvy readers might actually buy books about them.

 

Sociologists have noted a trend over the last few decades that suggests theology is not as important as it used to be in the minds of most American Christians. If Americans are fussed about religion at all (and a growing number aren’t), they are more concerned with behavior and political views than with orthodox belief.

 

Mormonism is no longer a threat, because it’s growing far more slowly…..If Mormonism’s most promising areas of conversion are in West Africa rather than the western U.S., American evangelicals are not going to get terribly exercised about it.

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, clarkgoble said:

As uninspired as the CES Letter is to most of us, it's still night and day better than the crap I usually encountered on my mission from Evangelicals. We sometimes rented the Godmakers just to have a chuckle at what they were saying about us. I mean the stuff Evangelicals used to push makes Alex Jones and InfoWars seem like dry analytic history.

I agree with Dan Peterson, who says the CES letter is "exasperating."

 

[Five Solas]

8 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I think you've nailed it. 

The prime threat today is what Joseph Smith would have characterized as "false brethren". 

It's interesting how the battlefront has changed so much in such a short period of time. 

All this has played out on this forum & its predecessor since I've been paying attention (the past ~ dozen years).  LDS Church growth has stalled and the argument has shifted from an "us vs. them" to -- what is "us?"  What does it mean to be "Mormon?"  Should you still get a temple recommend if you don't think the Book of Mormon describes literal, historical events?  (A question that would split LDS who participate here right down the middle.)

If you, as a committed Christian Protestant (or take your pick) want to reach LDS -- what is it exactly you're arguing against?  LDS are increasingly unsure of any ground beneath their feet.  So it makes sense there would be less arguments against LDS doctrines when the whole LDS theological landscape is turning to Jello.  Some LDS go as far as to deny they even have a theology!  Talk about making arguments moot.  

--Erik

 

[Duncan]

5 hours ago, Five Solas said:

All this has played out on this forum & its predecessor since I've been paying attention (the past ~ dozen years).  LDS Church growth has stalled and the argument has shifted from an "us vs. them" to -- what is "us?"  What does it mean to be "Mormon?"  Should you still get a temple recommend if you don't think the Book of Mormon describes literal, historical events?  (A question that would split LDS who participate here right down the middle.)

If you, as a committed Christian Protestant (or take your pick) want to reach LDS -- what is it exactly you're arguing against?  LDS are increasingly unsure of any ground beneath their feet.  So it makes sense there would be less arguments against LDS doctrines when the whole LDS theological landscape is turning to Jello.  Some LDS go as far as to deny they even have a theology!  Talk about making arguments moot.  

--Erik

 

do you think this was true say 20 years ago?  what if anything changed to make it what is "us"?

[california boy]

15 hours ago, clarkgoble said:

Yes. I think this is right. I also just think that the main threat to Evangelicals no longer is Mormon conversion but moving to the Nones.

That is also probably the main threat to Mormonism as well.  I think this issue is only going to get bigger

'If Americans are fussed about religion at all (and a growing number aren’t), they are more concerned with behavior and political views than with orthodox belief. And many self-professed evangelicals don’t even know their own theological tenets, according to a LifeWay study released last year."

 

[Five Solas]

2 hours ago, Duncan said:

do you think this was true say 20 years ago?  what if anything changed to make it what is "us"?

I think that's a really good question, Duncan. 

If I were to offer a hypothesis, I would point to the administration of the late LDS president, Gordon B. Hinckley, ~ 20 years ago.  I suspect his public prevarications on long-settled matters of LDS doctrine planted seeds that weren't healthy for the LDS Church organization.  In just a few moments on a talk show and in a published interview or two -- it suddenly no longer mattered what you thought of Snow's couplet or the underlying doctrines found in the King Follett Discourse.  That challenged a lot of members' thinking and opened doors subsequent administrations haven't closed. 

A lot of keyboard strokes have been incurred by LDS apologists attempting to walk back or at least soften what Hinckley actually said.  But those seeds took root and now there's a harvest to be had.  A harvest of tares, some might say. 

--Erik

__________________________________________

This is a crisis I knew had to come,
Destroying the balance I'd kept.
Doubting, unsettling and turning around,
Wondering what will come next.

--Joy Division "Passover"

   

[Duncan]

1 hour ago, Five Solas said:

I think that's a really good question, Duncan. 

If I were to offer a hypothesis, I would point to the administration of the late LDS president, Gordon B. Hinckley, ~ 20 years ago.  I suspect his public prevarications on long-settled matters of LDS doctrine planted seeds that weren't healthy for the LDS Church organization.  In just a few moments on a talk show and in a published interview or two -- it suddenly no longer mattered what you thought of Snow's couplet or the underlying doctrines found in the King Follett Discourse.  That challenged a lot of members' thinking and opened doors subsequent administrations haven't closed. 

A lot of keyboard strokes have been incurred by LDS apologists attempting to walk back or at least soften what Hinckley actually said.  But those seeds took root and now there's a harvest to be had.  A harvest of tares, some might say. 

--Erik

__________________________________________

This is a crisis I knew had to come,
Destroying the balance I'd kept.
Doubting, unsettling and turning around,
Wondering what will come next.

--Joy Division "Passover"

   

that's fair! I think his administration opened a lot of doors with some good and some maybe not so good for people

[clarkgoble]

5 hours ago, california boy said:

That is also probably the main threat to Mormonism as well.  I think this issue is only going to get bigger

'If Americans are fussed about religion at all (and a growing number aren’t), they are more concerned with behavior and political views than with orthodox belief. And many self-professed evangelicals don’t even know their own theological tenets, according to a LifeWay study released last year."

I think secularlism was always more of a problem than Evangelical anti-Mormons. 

[california boy]

2 hours ago, clarkgoble said:

I think secularlism was always more of a problem than Evangelical anti-Mormons. 

Blaming secularism seems to be the new fall guy.  But that is not what the recent surveys is talking about  Specifically, this is the problem

Quote

 they are more concerned with behavior and political views than with orthodox belief.

Religion has changed.  And what it has turned in to is what people are walking away from.  You can't blame that on secularism.

 

[Gray]

13 minutes ago, california boy said:

Blaming secularism seems to be the new fall guy.  But that is not what the recent surveys is talking about  Specifically, this is the problem

Religion has changed.  And what it has turned in to is what people are walking away from.  You can't blame that on secularism.

 

In some ways I think religion itself has become more secular (that is to say, more political).

[clarkgoble]

1 hour ago, california boy said:

Blaming secularism seems to be the new fall guy.  But that is not what the recent surveys is talking about  Specifically, this is the problem

Religion has changed.  And what it has turned in to is what people are walking away from.  You can't blame that on secularism.

I don't think religion has changed. Honestly most of these topics were hot topics in the 19th century.  Rather what's seen as appropriate for religion has changed for some groups.

About the only thing that wasn't there was the issue of abortion (which was only illegal after "quickening"). The main problem with abortion was that the people attempting it weren't terribly good at it so it wasn't really seen as an issue until the AMA tried to push a life begins at conception movement. Even then they built upon religious opposition to social ills like alcohol or prostitution yet didn't really get going until the end of the 19th century. (We should note that medicine really wasn't in the 19th century too) So abortion is just by technology alone primarily a 20th century issue. But even acknowledging it as a 20th century issue it's not like it wasn't a big issue 50 years ago.

Also I think that were it only about conflict between religion and particular political views we'd simply be seeing people leaving conservative Evangelical groups and flocking to more liberal mainline protestant groups. But that's precisely what we don't see. Indeed despite having more overlap over these political issues the mainline protestants are dying quicker than ever.

Edited July 18, 2017 by clarkgoble

[cdowis]

AntiMormonism is alive and doing very well on youtube.  Who reads books anymore, especially when videos are much more persuasive and entertaining.

The trend seems to be exMormons, including former bishops, who jump on the youtube channels.  They can be vey persuasive, speaking from past experience.

[cdowis]

A short story to show how antiMormonism is becoming part of our culture.

An individual related a story when he was seated next to an older lady on a long airplane flight.  They had a very nice discussion and the lady was obviously impressed on how  polite and kind he was.

Now she suddenly asked him about his underwear.  He was flabbergasted that they had been talking on several pleasant subjets and now she is showing an interest in what kind of underwear he is wearing.  Of course we can recognize that she  was trying to see if this very kind, polite man was a Mormon.

Edited July 19, 2017 by cdowis

[Honorentheos]

I think she missed a couple of other influential events.

For example, around the time she notes anti-Mormon literature was in it's heyday Richard Bushman was putting the finishing touches on Rough Stone Rolling. In hindsight there is a watershed-type event in the last decade as pro-Mormon literature also has evolved. The Church itself has essays on lds.org that a decade ago would have been largely dismissed by the faithful. The Givens are praised for making cafeteria Mormonism acceptable, where it matters less what one believes so long as one is striving in a direction that aligns with the Church. Hardy's stance that belief the BoM is historical is not necessary for exaltation would have gotten a person excommunicated long after the Godmakers had become campy farce even to ex-Mormons.

Also, while the internet is mentioned as a clearinghouse of information, I think she fails to acknowledge that information as medium has changed dramatically in a world where diffused communal information sharing has higher value than singular expert opinion. The exmormon subreddit probably killed more potential books than Mormonthink. One doesn't just find information on the internet which renders books less necessary, one finds community discussion and the exchange of information. Marshall McLuhan would probably have viewed the idea the decline of a particular medium means the death of the content it carried as naïve. The message that there is more to the truth than the Church is telling you is alive and doing very, very well.

Edited July 19, 2017 by Honorentheos