The Nehor Posted July 6, 2017 Posted July 6, 2017 6 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said: Cringe...I feel sorry for these poor kids Between feeling sorry for COB employees being overweight and Mormon kids having fun at a reenactment and feeling sorry for Mormons in general for our delusions......how do you function under the weight of that emotional sorrow? The number of tears that must water your pillow at night as you mourn for us..... 1
Johnnie Cake Posted July 6, 2017 Posted July 6, 2017 9 minutes ago, The Nehor said: Between feeling sorry for COB employees being overweight and Mormon kids having fun at a reenactment and feeling sorry for Mormons in general for our delusions......how do you function under the weight of that emotional sorrow? The number of tears that must water your pillow at night as you mourn for us..... YUP...YA PRETTY MUCH NAILED IT... However, I must admit that this Book of Mormon production was quite an impressive undertaking...that I do admire...I just question the wisdom of making these kids dress up in costumes from characters in a book from which , if real, we have no idea how they dressed...it just seems cruel to do this to naïve children. It looks like they took their costume cue from an Arnold Frieberg painting...go figure.
MiserereNobis Posted July 6, 2017 Posted July 6, 2017 How does this create spiritual experiences? Our diocese focuses on love and service opportunities for the youth, and then organizes trips to the monastery and our retreat/camping center in the mountains. It seems like the youth in this sort of thing might mistake being involved in something big and cool with having a spiritual experience. 1
Popular Post MiserereNobis Posted July 6, 2017 Popular Post Posted July 6, 2017 3 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said: YUP...YA PRETTY MUCH NAILED IT... However, I must admit that this Book of Mormon production was quite an impressive undertaking...that I do admire...I just question the wisdom of making these kids dress up in costumes from characters in a book from which , if real, we have no idea how they dressed...it just seems cruel to do this to naïve children. It looks like they took their costume cue from an Arnold Frieberg painting...go figure. Obviously I'm not LDS and like you, I don't believe the Book of Mormon is real history or divinely inspired. But I sympathize with the irritation the posters here feel towards you because of the way you approach this board and the attitude you bring. Really, the thing you can bring to this discussion is that since they don't know how the characters really dressed it's cruel to make the children dress up? Costumes are cruel? That's a pretty lame criticism, man. 9
pogi Posted July 6, 2017 Posted July 6, 2017 (edited) 34 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said: How does this create spiritual experiences? Our diocese focuses on love and service opportunities for the youth, and then organizes trips to the monastery and our retreat/camping center in the mountains. It seems like the youth in this sort of thing might mistake being involved in something big and cool with having a spiritual experience. I agree, I think 95% of this is fluff. I am sure their intent was for the youth to connect with and experience the scriptures in a deeper way, and I am also sure they had behind the scenes scripture study, lessons and discussion, and probably a testimony meeting, etc., but I think good intent is easily lost in a production this size. They reenacted the most dramatic and violent scenes of the BoM, which makes for a good video production, but a lousy spiritual connection with scripture in my opinion. Edited July 6, 2017 by pogi 2
The Nehor Posted July 6, 2017 Posted July 6, 2017 41 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said: How does this create spiritual experiences? Our diocese focuses on love and service opportunities for the youth, and then organizes trips to the monastery and our retreat/camping center in the mountains. It seems like the youth in this sort of thing might mistake being involved in something big and cool with having a spiritual experience. Reenactments can forge a connection with the past. Our baptism ritual is a reenactment of what the Savior submitted to and a reenactment of his death, burial, and resurrection. Our sacrament is similar. I cannot speak much of our temple rituals but it is a way to reenact the experiences and promises of the ancients and enact it again for ourselves. I find it strange that a Catholic would doubt the value of this. Your whole calendar is tied to the past and the faithful take actions to tie themselves to the yearly cycle to, in a sense, live with the past. The Jews go even further and reenact their sacred stories through their feasts. I remember President Hinckley of our faith asking those in Nauvoo at the time of the temple dedication to walk the same path the pioneers did as they abandoned their city to an uncertain future in the west. Admittedly this is not a divinely ordained or even religiously ordained ritual but rituals and reenactments have value. In two weeks I will go on a family trip. It is a trip my family has been going on since before I was born. It is filled with memories of my youth and of my grandparents and other relatives both living and dead. I have had some kind of spiritual reconnection with my family and my past every time I go on this trip. I expect a reenactment like what they did would inspire something similar. 3
Popular Post The Nehor Posted July 6, 2017 Popular Post Posted July 6, 2017 57 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said: YUP...YA PRETTY MUCH NAILED IT... However, I must admit that this Book of Mormon production was quite an impressive undertaking...that I do admire...I just question the wisdom of making these kids dress up in costumes from characters in a book from which , if real, we have no idea how they dressed...it just seems cruel to do this to naïve children. It looks like they took their costume cue from an Arnold Frieberg painting...go figure. So if the costumes could be shown to be accurate you would judge it a worthy endeavor? Sounds pretty pathetically nitpicky. 5
bluebell Posted July 6, 2017 Posted July 6, 2017 55 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said: How does this create spiritual experiences? Our diocese focuses on love and service opportunities for the youth, and then organizes trips to the monastery and our retreat/camping center in the mountains. It seems like the youth in this sort of thing might mistake being involved in something big and cool with having a spiritual experience. There's certainly that chance. But I think the sentiment behind it is that it's easier for people to form a testimony of scripture when they can relate personally to the people who lived it and that experiencing something from the person's point of view can help open hearts to the possibility that it actually happened, and that can make hearts vulnerable to the Spirit. As for service, our youth in our stake are constantly doing service. We try to spend 2 out of every four wednesday night's a month doing something service oriented. 3
MiserereNobis Posted July 6, 2017 Posted July 6, 2017 (edited) 18 minutes ago, The Nehor said: I find it strange that a Catholic would doubt the value of this. Your whole calendar is tied to the past and the faithful take actions to tie themselves to the yearly cycle to, in a sense, live with the past. Of course I value the past and as you point out, our entire liturgical calendar is connected to the past. In fact, Mass is a literal reenactment of the death of Jesus Christ. However, it seems to be quite a far stretch to compare this production to religious rituals. ETA: Mass is literal in that the bread and wine literally become Christ. Of course, it is not literal in the sense that there is a crucifixion or any other type of historical reenactment. Edited July 6, 2017 by MiserereNobis
The Nehor Posted July 6, 2017 Posted July 6, 2017 Just now, MiserereNobis said: Of course I value the past and as you point out, our entire liturgical calendar is connected to the past. In fact, Mass is a literal reenactment of the death of Jesus Christ. However, it seems to be quite a far stretch to compare this production to religious rituals. I agree that it is not a direct comparison but I do not see it as that much of a stretch that it can create similar experiences. 2
Johnnie Cake Posted July 6, 2017 Posted July 6, 2017 (edited) 23 minutes ago, The Nehor said: So if the costumes could be shown to be accurate you would judge it a worthy endeavor? Sounds pretty pathetically nitpicky. I've been involved in organizing 2 Stake Youth Trek activities. I'm somewhat qualified to speak on this subject. I recognize the time and effort it had to have taken to put this thing together...and it is an impressive effort. I get the criticism of my remarks...and yes I can see that my participation and comments can get to be tiresome and unwelcome... I apologize...and I mean that sincerely...I've had too much caffeine today but that's no excuse for my comments....I'm sorry...I really have no excuse for the tone of my comments...I'll leave you in peace. cheers Just want to add...that due to my limited status I can't go back and delete my earlier comments...but if I could I would good Night Edited July 6, 2017 by Johnnie Cake
Tacenda Posted July 8, 2017 Posted July 8, 2017 http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865684432/LDS-Church-begins-filming-Book-of-Mormon-videos-on-its-Jerusalem-set-in-Utah-County.html?__prclt=HxhsQY0F A continuation of the Moroni's Quest lead?
cinepro Posted July 8, 2017 Author Posted July 8, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, Tacenda said: http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865684432/LDS-Church-begins-filming-Book-of-Mormon-videos-on-its-Jerusalem-set-in-Utah-County.html?__prclt=HxhsQY0F A continuation of the Moroni's Quest lead? They're filming the easy part right now. I wonder what they'll do when they get to the new world? Native Americans or Mesoamericans, or some indiscernible mish-mash? And heaven help them if they go anywhere near having peoples' skin change color after the curse. Edited July 8, 2017 by cinepro
Duncan Posted July 8, 2017 Posted July 8, 2017 36 minutes ago, cinepro said: They're filming the easy part right now. I wonder what they'll do when they get to the new world? Native Americans or Mesoamericans, or some indiscernible mish-mash? And heaven help them if they go anywhere near having peoples' skin change color after the curse. They should do "The Book of Mormon goes to Encino" Pauly Shore can re visit his iconic role and this time play Nephi and see what hi jinks ensue!
california boy Posted July 8, 2017 Posted July 8, 2017 On 7/7/2017 at 0:25 AM, MiserereNobis said: Obviously I'm not LDS and like you, I don't believe the Book of Mormon is real history or divinely inspired. But I sympathize with the irritation the posters here feel towards you because of the way you approach this board and the attitude you bring. Really, the thing you can bring to this discussion is that since they don't know how the characters really dressed it's cruel to make the children dress up? Costumes are cruel? That's a pretty lame criticism, man. I don't believe you have to be Mormon to understand the value of re-enactments. There are a whole slew of people that get into re-enactments of the Civil War. Williamsburg is a re-eenactment of colonial life. There are countless re-enactments across the whole country. People enjoy both participating and watching these kinds of things. I used to work a lot with the youth in my ward. About every two years we would put on a ward play. Usually one of the classics like "Oklahoma" or "South Pacific". For many of the youth, this was one of the highlights of their youth growing up. It bound the group together, doing something bigger than themselves. It explored new talents and enriched their lives. I remember more than one kid who never ever sang to an audience. But we needed them to fill out the cast. What a surprise when they blossomed in a talent they thought they did not have. Because of ward budget cuts and changes in the Mutual program, the ward stopped doing the musicals. Many of the up and coming youth really felt like they had been short changed. One of the women in our ward ended up forming a community youth theater company and went on to be quite successful in putting on performances at the town theater. Many of her students were members of the church that wanted the opportunity to perform. Are these types of activities worth the time and expense? I guess it depends on how you want to spend your time and what you want to spend money on. Obviously this group seemed to think an investment in time and money was worth it. Who are we to judge whether they should have made such an investment. It is not our time nor our money. Are they spiritual experiences? Who knows. But does every activity we do have to be an spiritual experience? Can't kids just do something sometimes because it is fun? One more thing. Mormon youth do service projects on a regular basis. That to is also a part of their activities. Doing this production does not mean they aren't doing service projects. 4
Rain Posted July 9, 2017 Posted July 9, 2017 On 7/6/2017 at 10:41 AM, pogi said: I guess value is in the eye of the beholder, and "awesome" is subjective. To me it looks tacky and forced, as well as excessively extravagant. From the perspective of a youth leader (Scout Master) who goes camping with the youth each month, this looks like an absolute nightmare to me. I just pray that this does not catch on as the next trek experience on steroids. This is like a glorified version of the old road-shows that the church rightly did away with. To me it completely misses the mark of the spiritual experience, and adds unnecessary stress for the leaders and time away from families to make the logistics of this MASSIVE production a reality. I don't see it as a sustainable program church wide, both financially and in terms of the burden on the leaders with the required effort and time-commitment. I am sure it was a fun event for some of the youth though, but there are a lot easier and cheaper ways to have fun. I believe in the principles of minimalism and simplicity generally speaking, but especially in spiritual matters. I think that this activity is going in the opposite direction the church is directing us. The church is leaning away from such extravagance in an effort to simplify programs, taking its cues from Theraue https://www.lds.org/ensign/2008/11/let-him-do-it-with-simplicity?lang=eng https://www.mormonchannel.org/listen/series/mormon-channel-daily-audio/how-to-simplify-your-life https://www.mormonchannel.org/listen/series/mormon-channel-daily-audio/more-ways-to-simplify-your-life https://www.mormonchannel.org/blog/post/5-ways-to-simplify-your-life https://www.lds.org/church/news/the-ensign-home-page-a-resource-to-simplify-your-life?lang=eng https://www.lds.org/ensign/2005/12/questions-and-answers?lang=eng I am a backpacker and take my scouts backpacking all the time. It is a great life lesson in simplifying. You only pack what you can carry. It causes the boys to think about what is really important, and to decide what is really necessary and what is excess. I wish that people would learn to apply the same principles in life, but especially in church programs. As an avid backpacker, meditation practitioner, and minimalist, I cringe at activities like this. I am all about simple. When called upon to help with different activities I am constantly sharing things and reasons to make them more simple. We are simple in our home as well. When the discussion gets to how busy everyone is then I can't tell everyone I am busy because I actively cut out things that keep me busy and like having a simple, but fulfilling life. However, I recognize there are times when should put more effort into something. For some it is bringing out the fancy china. For others it might be 100s of balloons. For my parent's 50th wedding anniversary it is having all 5 children, spouses and grandchildren at the house, taking family pictures, putting on a talent show etc and more than 10,000 miles in cars. I think this is one of those times when you need to be a leader in those stakes to know if this was supposed to be a simple time or a something more time and know just when more is enough. 2
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