Parenting is Hard

[MorningStar]

I thought toddlers were hard, but teenagers are way harder and they influence the rest of the family.  I have a son who is struggling.  He has a testimony, but he hasn't been taking the sacrament and intentionally sabotages us when it comes to being to church on time or often doesn't go because he is avoiding the awkwardness of refusing the sacrament or blessing it.    He's had some people with good intentions push the issue, "Come on!  Why don't you want to bless it?"  DUH!!!  He had to pull a kid aside and explain that he was having personal issues so he would finally get it.  

Anyway, I'm trying not to make it a power struggle, but we have three teenage boys, an 8-year-old girl, and a 2-year-old girl.  I don't want them learning that they can just blow off church like their brother is attempting to do, but as he is late every single week, others don't bother to get ready because they know we're not leaving on time anyway, so why bother?  We miss taking the sacrament the majority of the time and if I were to say, "We're leaving without you if you're late", then he would be fine with that.  So usually we wait for him to show we love him and don't want to go to church without him.  

I've asked about what incentive would work.  If we are on time every week for x amount of weeks, is there a reward that would motivate them?  We can't just drive back and forth and our other boys aren't making it to church to pass the sacrament or anything because of their brother.  I don't know how tough to get with this boy and visits with the bishop aren't helping.  This morning we were supposed to be there at 8:15 because I needed to warm up with the choir, but we made it an hour later than that.  The choir director was worried because she really needed my voice.  One lady had to drop out at the last minute.  

Ugh.

Anyway, I know many of you have probably gone through similar things and I could use some advice as I pray about this. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Duncan]

41 minutes ago, MorningStar said:

I thought toddlers were hard, but teenagers are way harder and they influence the rest of the family.  I have a son who is struggling.  He has a testimony, but he hasn't been taking the sacrament and intentionally sabotages us when it comes to being to church on time or often doesn't go because he is avoiding the awkwardness of refusing the sacrament or blessing it.    He's had some people with good intentions push the issue, "Come on!  Why don't you want to bless it?"  DUH!!!  He had to pull a kid aside and explain that he was having personal issues so he would finally get it.  

Anyway, I'm trying not to make it a power struggle, but we have three teenage boys, an 8-year-old girl, and a 2-year-old girl.  I don't want them learning that they can just blow off church like their brother is attempting to do, but as he is late every single week, others don't bother to get ready because they know we're not leaving on time anyway, so why bother?  We miss taking the sacrament the majority of the time and if I were to say, "We're leaving without you if you're late", then he would be fine with that.  So usually we wait for him to show we love him and don't want to go to church without him.  

I've asked about what incentive would work.  If we are on time every week for x amount of weeks, is there a reward that would motivate them?  We can't just drive back and forth and our other boys aren't making it to church to pass the sacrament or anything because of their brother.  I don't know how tough to get with this boy and visits with the bishop aren't helping.  This morning we were supposed to be there at 8:15 because I needed to warm up with the choir, but we made it an hour later than that.  The choir director was worried because she really needed my voice.  One lady had to drop out at the last minute.  

Ugh.

Anyway, I know many of you have probably gone through similar things and I could use some advice as I pray about this. 

 

 

 

 

 

Does he have friends in the ward? or any crushes or anything? guys respond to girls PDQ and if their friends help out maybe that could get him going

[MorningStar]

1 minute ago, Duncan said:

Does he have friends in the ward? or any crushes or anything? guys respond to girls PDQ and if their friends help out maybe that could get him going

Not really.  He has friends in the stake, but no one he hangs out with in the ward.  The bishop stops by when he doesn't come and nags him.   

[Calm]

Start out with immediate incentives...if they get in the car on time they get something, then move to giving it less often.  Develop an expectation/need for it, Iow.

Depending on family dynamics, you might give an additional reward for when the entire family is ready on time. So sibling pressure is added to the mix .  Not just that though or it will cause resentment and conflict if they don't get it or too much pressure and then there will be mor resistance.

[Jane_Doe]

I'm with the sibling incentive idea.  

Alternatively, if he's truly being obstinate, could you by chance drive two cars?  Like have mom go with the other kids, and dad waits with the one son.  Being late doesn't get boy "off the hook", but rather for every 15 minutes he's late to church, he and dad do 30 minutes of scripture study together.  That way he either 1) gets 1-on-1 time to study out issues, or 2) gets really motivated to get to church on time.   

[strappinglad]

Nothing like a Bishop nagging to make him dig in his heels. Turn about is fair play, next time he needs/wants to be somewhere at a particular time, you go into slow mode and come late or not at all. You could always get him in the car on time and then leave him in the car until sacrament is over. Do you need any more bad ideas? I've got lots.

[bsjkki]

I will just send "hugs" and prayers...and my thoughts that could be completely wrong. 😉 If he is unable to take the sacrament due to a repentance process then he is purposely being late to avoid the "social" stigma. Attending church for him is unpleasant and since you say, he does not have friends, he is feeling isolated. The pressure from the Bishop is not going to help. You are wading through dangerous waters. If you just leave him home, he will find that easier then attending and could quickly slip into complete inactivity. I would suggest, he is hiding something from you that he is ashamed of.  Many times, teenagers will share personal things with their Bishop or other adult before telling a parent. 

Sometimes, teenagers do not like attention. Some take excessive kindness or concern in a negative way. Sometimes they need to sit in the back and go unnoticed as they work through their problems. Do you have two cars? Can one parent take your other children and the other wait behind, patiently and without anger? Can you tell him you will go to church with him 30 minutes late until he is emotionally ready to do more?

I would suggest you may want to find someone other than the Bishop for him to talk to. Sometimes that could be the stake president but he may need a trained counselor to help him work through what is really going on.  

This could be completely off but I learned the hard way. My regrets looking backwards were because I ended up fighting the wrong battles and live with the disastrous results. I would say he needs to know you will always love him and that God does too. 

 

 

[Garden Girl]

1 hour ago, strappinglad said:

Nothing like a Bishop nagging to make him dig in his heels. Turn about is fair play, next time he needs/wants to be somewhere at a particular time, you go into slow mode and come late or not at all. You could always get him in the car on time and then leave him in the car until sacrament is over. Do you need any more bad ideas? I've got lots.

I'm afraid this would be my reaction... not having any children myself, I don't have the wisdom, and I'm afraid I wouldn't have your patience MS and would be more likely to react this way, while trying to talk to him about family responsibility and cooperation, and the example he is setting for his younger brothers and how it is affecting the family generally.  He is also causing you to miss taking the sacrament... I wouldn't put up with that for one minute (easy for me to say)... Sounds like the tail is wagging the dog without consequence.  Do you ever sit down together around the kitchen table in a Family Council to discuss these things and set family dynamics and expectations, and consequences?  Like I said MS, I don't have the wisdom...I don't envy parents of teens today.  If I as a teen would have tried sabotaging my family, etc., my folks would simply not put up with it.   I'm sorry you're facing this challenge.  Bless you...

GG

Edited June 26, 2017 by Garden Girl

[MorningStar]

1 hour ago, strappinglad said:

Nothing like a Bishop nagging to make him dig in his heels. Turn about is fair play, next time he needs/wants to be somewhere at a particular time, you go into slow mode and come late or not at all. You could always get him in the car on time and then leave him in the car until sacrament is over. Do you need any more bad ideas? I've got lots.

Yeah, I appreciate the bishop trying to show he cares, but it's probably having the opposite effect.  I'm especially irritated at him today because I agreed to pick him up early from Youth Conference (he only missed the dinner) so he could go to a friend's birthday party.  And then he returns the favor by making us late again.  Sometimes he'll just act like he's not feeling well to get out of going, so it's super passive-aggressive and sometimes he doesn't answer when we call upstairs, "Are you going?!"  He's 17 and entering his senior year, but he needs to get it that he's not an adult yet and that we have rules in our home. I don't want to cram church down his throat, especially since my dad and most of his siblings left.  It's a touchy situation.  

I can count on one hand the number of times he's taken the sacrament since middle school.  Tried various things and the last bishop told him to stay super busy, but that didn't work.  I'm going to push for therapy.  He was bullied in our last ward and developed problems soon after that, so I think the way he feels about himself made it hard for him to make friends in the ward.  

[MorningStar]

17 minutes ago, Garden Girl said:

I'm afraid this would be my reaction... not having any children myself, I don't have the wisdom, and I'm afraid I wouldn't have your patience MS and would be more likely to react this way, while trying to talk to him about family responsibility and cooperation, and the example he is setting for his younger brothers and how it is affecting the family generally.  He is also causing you to miss taking the sacrament... I wouldn't put up with that for one minute (easy for me to say)... Sounds like the tail is wagging the dog without consequence.  Do you ever sit down together around the kitchen table in a Family Council to discuss these things and set family dynamics and expectations, and consequences?  Like I said MS, I don't have the wisdom...I don't envy parents of teens today.  If I as a teen would have tried sabotaging my family, etc., my folks would simply not put up with it.   I'm sorry you're facing this challenge.  Bless you...

GG

Thanks, GG.  I keep thinking about a phase my brother-in-law went through where he didn't go to church or even join the family in prayer and scripture study.  They would gently invite him and eventually he came back.  I have asked my son to at least give us a definite yes or no as to if he's coming or not instead of his passive-aggressive crap that makes us miss the sacrament.  So sick of it.  He says he wants to go on a mission or might want to go to BYU and I tell him, "You need a bishop's endorsement to do both and neither one of them is going to happen if you don't attend regularly and get yourself worthy!"  I have emailed him links to resources so that he will take the initiative to deal with his issues because it has to be his responsibility to overcome it, but he hasn't really done anything and felt like our old bishop had better advice than our newer one.  

[MorningStar]

21 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

I will just send "hugs" and prayers...and my thoughts that could be completely wrong. 😉 If he is unable to take the sacrament due to a repentance process then he is purposely being late to avoid the "social" stigma. Attending church for him is unpleasant and since you say, he does not have friends, he is feeling isolated. The pressure from the Bishop is not going to help. You are wading through dangerous waters. If you just leave him home, he will find that easier then attending and could quickly slip into complete inactivity. I would suggest, he is hiding something from you that he is ashamed of.  Many times, teenagers will share personal things with their Bishop or other adult before telling a parent. 

Sometimes, teenagers do not like attention. Some take excessive kindness or concern in a negative way. Sometimes they need to sit in the back and go unnoticed as they work through their problems. Do you have two cars? Can one parent take your other children and the other wait behind, patiently and without anger? Can you tell him you will go to church with him 30 minutes late until he is emotionally ready to do more?

I would suggest you may want to find someone other than the Bishop for him to talk to. Sometimes that could be the stake president but he may need a trained counselor to help him work through what is really going on.  

This could be completely off but I learned the hard way. My regrets looking backwards were because I ended up fighting the wrong battles and live with the disastrous results. I would say he needs to know you will always love him and that God does too. 

 

 

Here's one thing that happened.  My mom came to visit and noticed he refused the sacrament.  He might have seen her notice and she asked me if she could write him a nice letter about how she loves him no matter what.  NO.  I said, "Pretend you know nothing."  He's not hiding anything - I know exactly what's going on.  He cries and says, "I just get overpowered!"  It feels impossible to him.  My husband has no helpful advice.  He walks right past him and comes to me to talk about what's bothering him. He had me go with him to talk to the bishop because that's what he preferred.  

[MorningStar]

1 hour ago, Jane_Doe said:

I'm with the sibling incentive idea.  

Alternatively, if he's truly being obstinate, could you by chance drive two cars?  Like have mom go with the other kids, and dad waits with the one son.  Being late doesn't get boy "off the hook", but rather for every 15 minutes he's late to church, he and dad do 30 minutes of scripture study together.  That way he either 1) gets 1-on-1 time to study out issues, or 2) gets really motivated to get to church on time.   

Great ideas.  We take separate cars sometimes, but sometimes my husband can't go because of work or not feeling well. The rare time he was able to take the sacrament, he was excited to go to church.  

[MorningStar]

Also, he doesn't resist seminary and things like that, so it's not that he doesn't like anything churchy.  It's the embarrassment of being offered the sacrament and the deacons not having a clue and continuing to shove the tray at him.  And I think a lot of it is his siblings noticing too.  So as I've offered for him to wait in the car, his siblings will notice if he does that, so that's part of the shame he feels.  

[Traela]

What does he care about?  Unless he tells you he's not coming, then for every five minutes he makes you late, he should lose a privilege.  It has nothing to do with whether or not he takes the Sacrament, really.  He needs to recognize that his actions are tremendously unfair to the rest of the family.  

[Rain]

It sounds like it is only the sacrament he is avoiding, correct?

This suggests 1 of 3 problems to me. 1. He doesn't feel worthy because of something he has done. 2. He is misunderstanding something about the sacrament. 3. He is not comfortable with the covenant somehow. Perhaps he is having doubts etc.

How would he be if you sat down with him and said there would be no judgment on your part. That you recognize that he is almost an adult and need to be making his own choices. That you love him and respect his right to make choices, even if they might be hard for you. 

Tell him you have noticed specific actions - not judgments of the actions. Then ask him if he has concerns about the sacrament. Really listen to his answers. If you feel he might be misunderstanding something about the sacrament don't just jump in. Keep listening. Then tell him you want to make sure you understood. That you thought he was saying __________. Ask if that is correct. 

Last, ask him if he wants some help with that. If he says "no" then tell him ok and that you love him and will be there for him if he would like help. Give him a hug and respect the no. That question is so hard to ask because the fear is there that the answer will be no.

If he says yes then talk with him more, mostly asking questions or guiding him in the scriptures - so he can find his own answers - don't just tell him. 

Of course this is all said knowing that the child has to participate. Two of my children that would work nearly every time. One of them it rarely did when I actually remembered to do it correctly. So take what I say with a grain of salt.

[bsjkki]

19 minutes ago, MorningStar said:

Here's one thing that happened.  My mom came to visit and noticed he refused the sacrament.  He might have seen her notice and she asked me if she could write him a nice letter about how she loves him no matter what.  NO.  I said, "Pretend you know nothing."  He's not hiding anything - I know exactly what's going on.  He cries and says, "I just get overpowered!"  It feels impossible to him.  My husband has no helpful advice.  He walks right past him and comes to me to talk about what's bothering him. He had me go with him to talk to the bishop because that's what he preferred.  

He needs an addiction therapist. Parenting adult children is even harder. Sometimes the church's repentance process can make it harder to overcome some addictive behaviors because he actually needs therapy and his self esteem and feelings of worth are shot. 

[Rain]

14 minutes ago, MorningStar said:

Also, he doesn't resist seminary and things like that, so it's not that he doesn't like anything churchy.  It's the embarrassment of being offered the sacrament and the deacons not having a clue and continuing to shove the tray at him.  And I think a lot of it is his siblings noticing too.  So as I've offered for him to wait in the car, his siblings will notice if he does that, so that's part of the shame he feels.  

Talk to the deacon's quorem advisor. Suggest that he talk with the boys with how to handle things like this. They may not know what is expected of them. 

[Calm]

23 minutes ago, MorningStar said:

Also, he doesn't resist seminary and things like that, so it's not that he doesn't like anything churchy.  It's the embarrassment of being offered the sacrament and the deacons not having a clue and continuing to shove the tray at him.  And I think a lot of it is his siblings noticing too.  So as I've offered for him to wait in the car, his siblings will notice if he does that, so that's part of the shame he feels.  

Maybe he can get a calling that allows him to be doing something besides the Sacrament?  Is there someone who might need his help in getting into church?  Could he be setting up chairs in classes before church since you are the first meeting, right? Or maybe taking crayons, pictures and handouts to primary classes (this requires teachers to request stuff ahead of time) and then the kids won't wonder where he is, he can just say he sits in the back when he comes in so he is not disruptive until everyone else is moving to sit down after the Sacrament is over with?

Maybe he could be assigned to close doors for the Sacrament instead of passing?  

Edited June 26, 2017 by Calm

[MorningStar]

5 minutes ago, Rain said:

Talk to the deacon's quorem advisor. Suggest that he talk with the boys with how to handle things like this. They may not know what is expected of them. 

I talked to his old advisor, but that guy was in the middle of getting divorced due to his addiction.  Fun, huh? 

[Rain]

1 minute ago, MorningStar said:

I talked to his old advisor, but that guy was in the middle of getting divorced due to his addiction.  Fun, huh? 

Great. It might actually be good to talk with the YM president anyway since often teachers pass the sacrament as well.

[MorningStar]

10 minutes ago, Rain said:

It sounds like it is only the sacrament he is avoiding, correct?

This suggests 1 of 3 problems to me. 1. He doesn't feel worthy because of something he has done. 2. He is misunderstanding something about the sacrament. 3. He is not comfortable with the covenant somehow. Perhaps he is having doubts etc.

How would he be if you sat down with him and said there would be no judgment on your part. That you recognize that he is almost an adult and need to be making his own choices. That you love him and respect his right to make choices, even if they might be hard for you. 

Tell him you have noticed specific actions - not judgments of the actions. Then ask him if he has concerns about the sacrament. Really listen to his answers. If you feel he might be misunderstanding something about the sacrament don't just jump in. Keep listening. Then tell him you want to make sure you understood. That you thought he was saying __________. Ask if that is correct. 

Last, ask him if he wants some help with that. If he says "no" then tell him ok and that you love him and will be there for him if he would like help. Give him a hug and respect the no. That question is so hard to ask because the fear is there that the answer will be no.

If he says yes then talk with him more, mostly asking questions or guiding him in the scriptures - so he can find his own answers - don't just tell him. 

Of course this is all said knowing that the child has to participate. Two of my children that would work nearly every time. One of them it rarely did when I actually remembered to do it correctly. So take what I say with a grain of salt.

He's not taking the sacrament because the bishop says he can't take it if he's doing x.  Not taking the sacrament has lead to multiple embarrassing situations such as Deacons not getting that he's refusing to take it and having to tell several peers that he couldn't participate in serving or blessing the sacrament, plus his siblings notice him not taking it and they're old enough now to understand why.  He will be 18 in September and he has never blessed the sacrament.  I'm sure that makes him feel like an outcast.  

[MorningStar]

1 minute ago, Rain said:

Great. It might actually be good to talk with the YM president anyway since often teachers pass the sacrament as well.

Thanks, I'll do that or ask the bishop to.  The longer he goes without taking it, the worse he feels about himself.  

[Rain]

Another thought. Could your family sit along the wall with him next to it and you next to him? You could take 2 side benches if the one is not big enough for your family. That way you could shield him from others. You could suggest this plan ahead of time so he knows he doesn't need to worry.

[MorningStar]

2 minutes ago, Rain said:

Another thought. Could your family sit along the wall with him next to it and you next to him? You could take 2 side benches if the one is not big enough for your family. That way you could shield him from others. You could suggest this plan ahead of time so he knows he doesn't need to worry.

That's a good idea.    We would have to take two benches.  

[Rain]

Just now, MorningStar said:

That's a good idea.    We would have to take two benches.  

I figured. In our meeting house the 4 of us still at home barely fit on a side bench. In the stake center though we could fit several more than us. I have seen families take 2 side benches often enough though.