Parenting is Hard

[bsjkki]

13 minutes ago, Rain said:

Another thought. Could your family sit along the wall with him next to it and you next to him? You could take 2 side benches if the one is not big enough for your family. That way you could shield him from others. You could suggest this plan ahead of time so he knows he doesn't need to worry.

We would sit in the back and place our kid between us. It helped things not be so noticeable. It really does feel like public shaming for self conscious teenagers. 

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, MorningStar said:

Yeah, I appreciate the bishop trying to show he cares, but it's probably having the opposite effect.  I'm especially irritated at him today because I agreed to pick him up early from Youth Conference (he only missed the dinner) so he could go to a friend's birthday party.  And then he returns the favor by making us late again.  Sometimes he'll just act like he's not feeling well to get out of going, so it's super passive-aggressive and sometimes he doesn't answer when we call upstairs, "Are you going?!"  He's 17 and entering his senior year, but he needs to get it that he's not an adult yet and that we have rules in our home. I don't want to cram church down his throat, especially since my dad and most of his siblings left.  It's a touchy situation.  

I can count on one hand the number of times he's taken the sacrament since middle school.  Tried various things and the last bishop told him to stay super busy, but that didn't work.  I'm going to push for therapy.  He was bullied in our last ward and developed problems soon after that, so I think the way he feels about himself made it hard for him to make friends in the ward.  

My son did the same thing and at the same age. We did everything we could to get him there, but sometimes it turned into such a battle that it backfired. It was mostly my husband that tried to force or threaten him to go. I had to intervene sometimes because it was hurting their relationship.

My friend's son went through something similar, and she and her husband tried to force their son to go. One day they came home from church and found that their son had cut up every single white church shirt he had. But this young man was dealing with depression and would stay up all night and sleep during the day. Didn't want to even go to school. Luckily he's doing much better now. And may even serve a mission or serve in the military. I think it helped when his parents backed off. But it was sure a nightmare for a while. I bet more than you know are going through the same thing.

Have you asked why he doesn't want to go, I'm sure you have. But maybe he ran into some information about the church that disturbed him. Have you asked if it's something like that? Maybe he's struggling with his testimony but doesn't dare tell you. 

[MorningStar]

5 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

My son did the same thing and at the same age. We did everything we could to get him there, but sometimes it turned into such a battle that it backfired. It was mostly my husband that tried to force or threaten him to go. I had to intervene sometimes because it was hurting their relationship.

My friend's son went through something similar, and she and her husband tried to force their son to go. One day they came home from church and found that their son had cut up every single white church shirt he had. But this young man was dealing with depression and would stay up all night and sleep during the day. Didn't want to even go to school. Luckily he's doing much better now. And may even serve a mission or serve in the military. I think it helped when his parents backed off. But it was sure a nightmare for a while. I bet more than you know are going through the same thing.

Have you asked why he doesn't want to go, I'm sure you have. But maybe he ran into some information about the church that disturbed him. Have you asked if it's something like that? Maybe he's struggling with his testimony but doesn't dare tell you. 

It's not a testimony issue. He has acknowledged that it's embarrassment over not being worthy to take the sacrament or participate in ordinances. He's happy to go to church stuff that doesn't make it obvious he's having issues. If he didn't believe, he would just take the sacrament.

[katherine the great]

I have raised three boys so this is an issue I am familiar with. My attitude is different than most LDS though. My intention in saying this is not to offend, but my feelings have changed markedly on this issue over the years as I've seen the angst teenage boys have to endure in our culture. I think its wrong to withhold the sacrament from a faithful, believing young person who is completely normal in every way and doing no harm to others. I think we are driving away a lot of very fine young people by continuing to shame them for a completely normal behavior. Its certainly a worthy goal to learn complete self control, but there is a lot of variation in their abilities to do so when they are young. I know that most Bishops don't think of it in terms of shaming, but taking the sacrament is a public act and people do notice and sometimes talk and teenagers are acutely aware of this. I personally would accommodate the kid and let him be late or find another task to do for the first fifteen minutes of the meeting if he is unable to participate. The other kids would just have to deal with it.

[MorningStar]

10 minutes ago, katherine the great said:

I have raised three boys so this is an issue I am familiar with. My attitude is different than most LDS though. My intention in saying this is not to offend, but my feelings have changed markedly on this issue over the years as I've seen the angst teenage boys have to endure in our culture. I think its wrong to withhold the sacrament from a faithful, believing young person who is completely normal in every way and doing no harm to others. I think we are driving away a lot of very fine young people by continuing to shame them for a completely normal behavior. Its certainly a worthy goal to learn complete self control, but there is a lot of variation in their abilities to do so when they are young. I know that most Bishops don't think of it in terms of shaming, but taking the sacrament is a public act and people do notice and sometimes talk and teenagers are acutely aware of this. I personally would accommodate the kid and let him be late or find another task to do for the first fifteen minutes of the meeting if he is unable to participate. The other kids would just have to deal with it.

Thank you.  <3  I've told him many times, "You're one of the rare boys who's being honest."  Other issues are youth temple trips.  Someone in the bishopric even asked, "Why didn't you go?"  Again - DUH.  Meanwhile his Scout leader was going to the temple while his wife was on the verge of divorcing him/had a separate bedroom because of his addiction/total violation of her boundaries. And the dude lied to me.  I reached out to him and said, "Hey, you've probably noticed my son has been avoiding situations ...."  He said, "Yeah, I talked to him about my addiction, blah blah blah."  I asked my son about it and he said, "No he didn't!"  

This issue is going on four years now.  

[bsjkki]

7 hours ago, katherine the great said:

I have raised three boys so this is an issue I am familiar with. My attitude is different than most LDS though. My intention in saying this is not to offend, but my feelings have changed markedly on this issue over the years as I've seen the angst teenage boys have to endure in our culture. I think its wrong to withhold the sacrament from a faithful, believing young person who is completely normal in every way and doing no harm to others. I think we are driving away a lot of very fine young people by continuing to shame them for a completely normal behavior. Its certainly a worthy goal to learn complete self control, but there is a lot of variation in their abilities to do so when they are young. I know that most Bishops don't think of it in terms of shaming, but taking the sacrament is a public act and people do notice and sometimes talk and teenagers are acutely aware of this. I personally would accommodate the kid and let him be late or find another task to do for the first fifteen minutes of the meeting if he is unable to participate. The other kids would just have to deal with it.

If it's the "m" problem...I thought they changed this. I know of a family whose son left the church. After he confessed they released him from his leadership role and he could not take the sacrament...he is completely inactive.  The other boy who did not confess ended up on a mission and at BYU and are doing well...married in the temple etc...

There is a toxic shame cycle and I agree we can do more harm than good by making someone feel like a failure over this issue. It can begin a downward cycle. I agree with you on this.

Edited June 26, 2017 by bsjkki

[YJacket]

5 hours ago, MorningStar said:

Thank you.  <3  I've told him many times, "You're one of the rare boys who's being honest."  Other issues are youth temple trips.  Someone in the bishopric even asked, "Why didn't you go?"  Again - DUH.  Meanwhile his Scout leader was going to the temple while his wife was on the verge of divorcing him/had a separate bedroom because of his addiction/total violation of her boundaries. And the dude lied to me.  I reached out to him and said, "Hey, you've probably noticed my son has been avoiding situations ...."  He said, "Yeah, I talked to him about my addiction, blah blah blah."  I asked my son about it and he said, "No he didn't!"  

This issue is going on four years now.  

I'm assuming we are talking about a pornography addiction here?  

For this type of addiction, there is a real simple way to handle it:  cut off the internet.

Your son has been struggling with this for a long time-almost 25% of his life (assuming I'm right), and at this point unless you help teach him how to control it-he will most likely have this problem for a heck of a lot longer.  And since he is 3 months from 18-you are pretty much done in being able to actively help him.  

Honestly, I would say the most important thing is to help him control and master his addiction; concentrating on him going to Church over the addiction is IMO focusing on the wrong thing.  What good is faith, Church and parents if it can't help us overcome our sins and addictions? Help him master the root problem and the rest will come back. Sending him links for mission isn't going to help if the root problem isn't fixed.

IMO you need to teach him how to control it.  The first step to teaching how to control it is to understand, when, how and why.

The why is pretty simple (red-blooded male with hormones)-instead of saying you are bad b/c you have these hormones say-it is a really good thing you have them-God gave them to us; not for us to be ashamed but for our benefit, so that we can be attracted to a mate, form a family and promulgate the human race. The fact that you have these feelings is good-you just have to control it.

The when is also probably pretty simple; it's either going to be late at night or during moments of boredom.  Many times the urges come b/c of an underlying problem-feeling sad, depressed, upset, etc. about something so in order to not feel those feelings go to something that for a temporary period of time makes you feel better (much like alcohol or drugs-that's why porn. is more like a porn user vs. someone who watches porn).

The how is also pretty simple: how is porn. accessed, through the internet.  I highly doubt he goes and buys magazines off the rack or goes to movie theatres (do they have either of those today???).

So quite simply, help your son become worthy to partake of the sacrament. Ask him how long the Bishop says he needs to be clean to be able to partake (2 weeks, a month, etc.). Then execute a plan to help him; only your son can fix the problem-only he is the responsible party.  But for him to be able to fix it he has to believe that he can fix it with God's help.  Right now, he probably doesn't believe he can fix it (so what's the point).

So quite simply, take away the cell phones, put any internet connected devices in the middle of the house and completely and totally unplug the internet when he is alone in the house.  I'm not a fan of filters as filters can be worked around . . . but no internet-that's real hard to work around.  You've got to go to a friends house, borrow someone's phone etc. to get access to that filth; and when it takes work to sin-he might just think twice about it.

Completely and utterly destroy his ability to get access to the internet.  I know an internet fast is real hard in today's society-but helping your son is the most important right now.  Start off with 1 month and help him get clean . . .i.e. enough time to go through withdrawal so he can see what it's like to feel clean.  Once the hammer is dropped and he can see himself away from the addiction, then he will probably have a better ability to self-control himself.

Anyways, my 2 cents.

[YJacket]

5 hours ago, MorningStar said:

And the dude lied to me.  I reached out to him and said, "Hey, you've probably noticed my son has been avoiding situations ...."  He said, "Yeah, I talked to him about my addiction, blah blah blah."  I asked my son about it and he said, "No he didn't!"  

Did the guy lie about it to you or did your son lie to you about it? Never underestimate the ability of a child to lie right to the face of the parent.

One addendum; when I say unplug-I mean ensure 100% that he cannot access the internet. That will probably mean unplugging the router and sticking the router is a location that he cannot get to.  Yes it is a lot of work-but internet and porn addiction is really powerful; how badly do you want and how far are you willing to go to ensure that porn filth does not come across on your wires (you are paying for the internet-and most likely the phones), so as the rightful owner you can do as you please with it (he doesn't pay the bill for internet).

[Tacenda]

2 hours ago, bsjkki said:

If it's the "m" problem...I thought they changed this. I know of a family whose son left the church. After he confessed they released him from his leadership role and he could not take the sacrament...he is completely inactive.  The other boy who did not confess ended up on a mission and at BYU and are doing well...married in the temple etc...

There is a toxic shame cycle and I agree we can do more harm than good by making someone feel like a failure over this issue. It can begin a downward cycle. I agree with you on this.

I now see the issue with why he isn't taking the Sacrament. I have read many posts by men that went through the same thing, and the harm it caused them. Thinking they were horrible for something that the rest of the world sees as normal. Even to the point of wanting to take their own lives. 

The church needs to nix this immediately. And now see why he doesn't want to be on time for the Sacrament and endure the shame over and over again. I hope Morningstar can do whatever possible to get him in a place that he can see he isn't a bad person if this is what is going on in his mind. And he does sound like such a good young man, not trying to cover up anything he's done that he thinks is a sin or something by not taking the Sacrament. My heart goes out to him. ETA: I'm assuming it's the "m" word but maybe it's porn addiction, but whatever it is there is great harm in making it out to being something that is bigger than he is. 

Edited June 26, 2017 by Tacenda

[Tacenda]

2 hours ago, YJacket said:

I'm assuming we are talking about a pornography addiction here?  

For this type of addiction, there is a real simple way to handle it:  cut off the internet.

Your son has been struggling with this for a long time-almost 25% of his life (assuming I'm right), and at this point unless you help teach him how to control it-he will most likely have this problem for a heck of a lot longer.  And since he is 3 months from 18-you are pretty much done in being able to actively help him.  

Honestly, I would say the most important thing is to help him control and master his addiction; concentrating on him going to Church over the addiction is IMO focusing on the wrong thing.  What good is faith, Church and parents if it can't help us overcome our sins and addictions? Help him master the root problem and the rest will come back. Sending him links for mission isn't going to help if the root problem isn't fixed.

IMO you need to teach him how to control it.  The first step to teaching how to control it is to understand, when, how and why.

The why is pretty simple (red-blooded male with hormones)-instead of saying you are bad b/c you have these hormones say-it is a really good thing you have them-God gave them to us; not for us to be ashamed but for our benefit, so that we can be attracted to a mate, form a family and promulgate the human race. The fact that you have these feelings is good-you just have to control it.

The when is also probably pretty simple; it's either going to be late at night or during moments of boredom.  Many times the urges come b/c of an underlying problem-feeling sad, depressed, upset, etc. about something so in order to not feel those feelings go to something that for a temporary period of time makes you feel better (much like alcohol or drugs-that's why porn. is more like a porn user vs. someone who watches porn).

The how is also pretty simple: how is porn. accessed, through the internet.  I highly doubt he goes and buys magazines off the rack or goes to movie theatres (do they have either of those today???).

So quite simply, help your son become worthy to partake of the sacrament. Ask him how long the Bishop says he needs to be clean to be able to partake (2 weeks, a month, etc.). Then execute a plan to help him; only your son can fix the problem-only he is the responsible party.  But for him to be able to fix it he has to believe that he can fix it with God's help.  Right now, he probably doesn't believe he can fix it (so what's the point).

So quite simply, take away the cell phones, put any internet connected devices in the middle of the house and completely and totally unplug the internet when he is alone in the house.  I'm not a fan of filters as filters can be worked around . . . but no internet-that's real hard to work around.  You've got to go to a friends house, borrow someone's phone etc. to get access to that filth; and when it takes work to sin-he might just think twice about it.

Completely and utterly destroy his ability to get access to the internet.  I know an internet fast is real hard in today's society-but helping your son is the most important right now.  Start off with 1 month and help him get clean . . .i.e. enough time to go through withdrawal so he can see what it's like to feel clean.  Once the hammer is dropped and he can see himself away from the addiction, then he will probably have a better ability to self-control himself.

Anyways, my 2 cents.

This is so wrong to me. You're making such a big deal out of it that you would mess an individual up. ETA: I re-read this. Sorry, it's not bad advice, most of it anyway. I guess one way to break a habit is to quit something for a time. 

Edited June 26, 2017 by Tacenda

[rpn]

What worked for me was parents stayed home with child and did sacrament meeting, sunday school and priesthood lesson with each of them when it was their turn to do this kind of thing.  It only took two weeks fo them deciding they'd rather hang out with other teens at church than have the "discussions with their parents in their pj's in their room.

Also natural consequences --- if you aren't responsible enough to get yourself to school, seminary church and work on time, you aren't responsible enough to use the car.

But remember that you are in the business of treating him like Jesus would.   Your relationship with this child matters.  It is not your job to judge him (though I know how worrisome this is when you have other children) or to get him to church on time by force or coercion    It is to help him see his best self and understand the atonement and make a better choice.

 

 

And leave without him so everyone else can be there on time, before going home and walking with him to church (when it will almost be over or long since over).  But in the process you may learn stuff about each other.

Help him understand the atonement.  Believing Christ by Stephen Robinson , and the middle five chapters of In Quiet Desperation (the best IRL application I've read of it).    Help him know that no matter how much he has messed up, he can get over and around it, and through it and his personal best and quick repentance is always enough for His Heavenly Parents and his Savior.  Pray for him in family prayers (along with other children if they also specifically need it, and in couple and personal prayers.  Invite him to serve with you in tangible my-muscles-will-ache-tomorrow or with younger boys who especially need a good male influence.

And tell him that if he's made a mistake and cannot take the sacrament, one of the ways that he shows the bishop he is humbly repenting is to endure that well. 

There have been a lot of times when we parents have made really sound decisions, when God beat us up side the head and required we do something different with one or another of our children (He has to do that to us, because we don't otherwise always hear Him: if you listen better, you'll likely get your inspiration easier.

 

Edited June 26, 2017 by rpn

[MorningStar]

2 hours ago, YJacket said:

I'm assuming we are talking about a pornography addiction here?  

For this type of addiction, there is a real simple way to handle it:  cut off the internet.

Your son has been struggling with this for a long time-almost 25% of his life (assuming I'm right), and at this point unless you help teach him how to control it-he will most likely have this problem for a heck of a lot longer.  And since he is 3 months from 18-you are pretty much done in being able to actively help him.  

Honestly, I would say the most important thing is to help him control and master his addiction; concentrating on him going to Church over the addiction is IMO focusing on the wrong thing.  What good is faith, Church and parents if it can't help us overcome our sins and addictions? Help him master the root problem and the rest will come back. Sending him links for mission isn't going to help if the root problem isn't fixed.

IMO you need to teach him how to control it.  The first step to teaching how to control it is to understand, when, how and why.

The why is pretty simple (red-blooded male with hormones)-instead of saying you are bad b/c you have these hormones say-it is a really good thing you have them-God gave them to us; not for us to be ashamed but for our benefit, so that we can be attracted to a mate, form a family and promulgate the human race. The fact that you have these feelings is good-you just have to control it.

The when is also probably pretty simple; it's either going to be late at night or during moments of boredom.  Many times the urges come b/c of an underlying problem-feeling sad, depressed, upset, etc. about something so in order to not feel those feelings go to something that for a temporary period of time makes you feel better (much like alcohol or drugs-that's why porn. is more like a porn user vs. someone who watches porn).

The how is also pretty simple: how is porn. accessed, through the internet.  I highly doubt he goes and buys magazines off the rack or goes to movie theatres (do they have either of those today???).

So quite simply, help your son become worthy to partake of the sacrament. Ask him how long the Bishop says he needs to be clean to be able to partake (2 weeks, a month, etc.). Then execute a plan to help him; only your son can fix the problem-only he is the responsible party.  But for him to be able to fix it he has to believe that he can fix it with God's help.  Right now, he probably doesn't believe he can fix it (so what's the point).

So quite simply, take away the cell phones, put any internet connected devices in the middle of the house and completely and totally unplug the internet when he is alone in the house.  I'm not a fan of filters as filters can be worked around . . . but no internet-that's real hard to work around.  You've got to go to a friends house, borrow someone's phone etc. to get access to that filth; and when it takes work to sin-he might just think twice about it.

Completely and utterly destroy his ability to get access to the internet.  I know an internet fast is real hard in today's society-but helping your son is the most important right now.  Start off with 1 month and help him get clean . . .i.e. enough time to go through withdrawal so he can see what it's like to feel clean.  Once the hammer is dropped and he can see himself away from the addiction, then he will probably have a better ability to self-control himself.

Anyways, my 2 cents.

I didn't send him links about a mission.  I sent him links about addiction recovery.  He has to make the decision and he has to decide he needs to regulate himself.  He doesn't have a cell phone or any other device.  We only have the family computer and I lock him out of it.  He has to do homework on the computer using the Internet, so I stay up quite late if he's up late doing homework.  At this point I think it's the big M and that's why he can't stake the sacrament. I can block him from pornography, but I can't block him from his own body.  There is no recovery group option for him for him here and he initially said no to therapy, but he's warming up to the idea.  Bishops basically say, "Get a job. Stay busy. Think of a hymn."  That doesn't work at all.  Stress is a factor in addictions.  I've talked to him about what a therapist taught in a class with is HALTS.  Hungry Angry Lonely Tired Stressed (or sick). Identify what is bothering you and try to fix it rather than trying to escape.  Years ago he was given a school issued laptop that he was required to use at home and at school.  That's what started this crap.  My worst fear.  I couldn't lock him out of that and now our new school is talking about getting laptops for the kids too.   

[YJacket]

36 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

This is so wrong to me. You're making such a big deal out of it that you would mess an individual up. 

I fully admit it is drastic; but it is already a big deal that is messing this young man up (if the assumption on porn is correct). This young man has never blessed the sacrament in almost 2 years and probably hasn't really taken the sacrament in as more time (or more). So obviously whatever is going on has already seriously messed him up. It is obvious that this problem is and has been a serious impediment to him attending church. I think to deny that is to deny the gravity of the situation.

So then the question becomes what to do about it.  If one believes that porn. is not a serious problem and that since a large portion of the LDS men either currently deal with it or have dealt with it at some point and that it's not a big deal. Then what one really needs to do is to (as a parent) go to the Bishop, explain you don't think this is a big deal and that telling your son that he can't partake of the sacrament is having major effects on whether his is attending church. Certainly that is an option, but to do so would be to basically be telling the Bishop how to do his job as the Judge in Israel; I certainly don't want to be in that position.

If talking to the Bishop is now out, how do you talk to the child about it?  Well, since the kid is almost an adult (and most likely think he knows it all-or that he knows better than any adult in a leadership role (parent/teacher)), talking to the kid about it isn't gonna have much affect.  At best, the kid will go "yeah mom I know it is a problem, I need to fix it" and then nothing gets done. I've learned with kids, that bribing, cajoling, bartering (i.e. you do this I do that)-rarely-if ever works.

What kid is ever going to say . . "you know mom, I've been thinking, I've really been having a problem with x-will you do y to help me fix x". Negotiating with a child is a sure fire way to fail; why b/c they don't have the maturity or reasoning faculties to do so and so to expect that they might is just setting it up for failure. IMO, parents talk way, way to much to their kids about what their kids should be doing rather than just taking action when the child doesn't do what they are supposed. The old saying you can talk yourself till your blue in the face applies to children.

Okay, so now talking to the kid is out, talking to the Bishop is out, so what to do?  The options are either a) do nothing or b) take action.  Certainly many times the best option is a) . . .let the kid fall flat on his face (or give him enough rope to hang himself with) and let him learn on his own.  At 17 . . . you've got 1 more year before you have absolutely 0 control over any of their actions and at 17 you should be more at the stage of mentoring rather than nitpicking (as that will invite tons of backlash).

I am of the opinion that addictions in children (as long as they live under your roof) are precisely the things that a parent should get involved with and ensure that in no uncertain terms that the child understands just how destructive they can be. And if a child has not been able to partake of the sacrament for an extended period of time b/c of porn use, then that is an addiction-i.e. something the child is not able to stop for any length of time.

If one wants to argue that porn. isn't that bad then that is another discussion (I happen to believe it is very destructive).

So if you are a parent of a child that has an addiction, what do you do? Well, you do everything in your power to ensure that the child has the full capability to break it. For drugs, that might mean a rehab center, or a change of location, or a suspension of driving privileges, etc.

You don't bring a knife to a gunfight. You hit it hard, you hit is fast and you make an impression. With kids you bring a bazooka to a gunfight if you want to solve the problem.

Ditching internet might seem drastic, but which is worse allowing him to wallow in his addiction and then he leaves home goes to college and then has full access to whatever he wants to regardless of time of day? Or at least help him break the addiction, even if it is only for small period of time so he can understand what it is like to be free of it?

[YJacket]

3 minutes ago, MorningStar said:

I didn't send him links about a mission.  I sent him links about addiction recovery.  He has to make the decision and he has to decide he needs to regulate himself.  He doesn't have a cell phone or any other device.  We only have the family computer and I lock him out of it.  He has to do homework on the computer using the Internet, so I stay up quite late if he's up late doing homework.  At this point I think it's the big M and that's why he can't stake the sacrament. I can block him from pornography, but I can't block him from his own body.  There is no recovery group option for him for him here and he initially said no to therapy, but he's warming up to the idea.  Bishops basically say, "Get a job. Stay busy. Think of a hymn."  That doesn't work at all.  Stress is a factor in addictions.  I've talked to him about what a therapist taught in a class with is HALTS.  Hungry Angry Lonely Tired Stressed (or sick). Identify what is bothering you and try to fix it rather than trying to escape.  Years ago he was given a school issued laptop that he was required to use at home and at school.  That's what started this crap.  My worst fear.  I couldn't lock him out of that and now our new school is talking about getting laptops for the kids too.   

M and P go like peas in a pod.  You are right you can't lock him out of his own body; my fault on misunderstanding and being wrong on the links.

Sounds like you are doing well; I personally wouldn't stay up late; I'd tell him I go to bed at x time-if your hw isn't done by then tough-I'm pulling the plug. 

My guess is that either he still views P or he views it in his mind (i.e. remembers it) before M (they go together).

Yeap .. .stupid school systems-I am sorry that happened to you-something I'm very vigilant in right now too.

[YJacket]

8 minutes ago, MorningStar said:

I can block him from pornography, but I can't block him from his own body.

I'm not saying you are doing a bad job of blocking; just that if he is reasonably smart with a computer (and most kids these days are), you probably only think you are blocking him.  I can almost guarantee he will find away around it.  And you might ask him and he might say no; but again even really good kids will instantly lie to their parents if they think they can get away with it (even when they can't get away with it they will still lie). If he wants to he can find away around any block you put in.

The only sure-fire way to block is to pull the plug.

[bluebell]

3 hours ago, YJacket said:

Did the guy lie about it to you or did your son lie to you about it? Never underestimate the ability of a child to lie right to the face of the parent.

One addendum; when I say unplug-I mean ensure 100% that he cannot access the internet. That will probably mean unplugging the router and sticking the router is a location that he cannot get to.  Yes it is a lot of work-but internet and porn addiction is really powerful; how badly do you want and how far are you willing to go to ensure that porn filth does not come across on your wires (you are paying for the internet-and most likely the phones), so as the rightful owner you can do as you please with it (he doesn't pay the bill for internet).

In school now, it's practically impossible to completely unplug.  Most schools give kids iPads and assignments can only be completed on the internet (my son doesn't even have text books for most of his classes, they are all online, and he just goes to a regular public school in Utah).  

[YJacket]

3 minutes ago, bluebell said:

In school now, it's practically impossible to completely unplug.  Most schools give kids iPads and assignments can only be completed on the internet (my son doesn't even have text books for most of his classes, they are all online, and he just goes to a regular public school in Utah).  

I understand; personally I really dislike this new teaching methodology. I'm really not convinced at all that it helps in learning.  It probably helps in costs, but probably hurts learning. To the extent possible, I would unplug, but this is certainly a challenging problem.

[bluebell]

4 minutes ago, YJacket said:

I understand; personally I really dislike this new teaching methodology. I'm really not convinced at all that it helps in learning.  It probably helps in costs, but probably hurts learning. To the extent possible, I would unplug, but this is certainly a challenging problem.

In some ways it's easier but in other ways it just creates more problems.  Especially for families that don't have internet in the home or good computers.  I prefer regular books and regular homework because it's simple.

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, YJacket said:

I fully admit it is drastic; but it is already a big deal that is messing this young man up (if the assumption on porn is correct). This young man has never blessed the sacrament in almost 2 years and probably hasn't really taken the sacrament in as more time (or more). So obviously whatever is going on has already seriously messed him up. It is obvious that this problem is and has been a serious impediment to him attending church. I think to deny that is to deny the gravity of the situation.

So then the question becomes what to do about it.  If one believes that porn. is not a serious problem and that since a large portion of the LDS men either currently deal with it or have dealt with it at some point and that it's not a big deal. Then what one really needs to do is to (as a parent) go to the Bishop, explain you don't think this is a big deal and that telling your son that he can't partake of the sacrament is having major effects on whether his is attending church. Certainly that is an option, but to do so would be to basically be telling the Bishop how to do his job as the Judge in Israel; I certainly don't want to be in that position.

If talking to the Bishop is now out, how do you talk to the child about it?  Well, since the kid is almost an adult (and most likely think he knows it all-or that he knows better than any adult in a leadership role (parent/teacher)), talking to the kid about it isn't gonna have much affect.  At best, the kid will go "yeah mom I know it is a problem, I need to fix it" and then nothing gets done. I've learned with kids, that bribing, cajoling, bartering (i.e. you do this I do that)-rarely-if ever works.

What kid is ever going to say . . "you know mom, I've been thinking, I've really been having a problem with x-will you do y to help me fix x". Negotiating with a child is a sure fire way to fail; why b/c they don't have the maturity or reasoning faculties to do so and so to expect that they might is just setting it up for failure. IMO, parents talk way, way to much to their kids about what their kids should be doing rather than just taking action when the child doesn't do what they are supposed. The old saying you can talk yourself till your blue in the face applies to children.

Okay, so now talking to the kid is out, talking to the Bishop is out, so what to do?  The options are either a) do nothing or b) take action.  Certainly many times the best option is a) . . .let the kid fall flat on his face (or give him enough rope to hang himself with) and let him learn on his own.  At 17 . . . you've got 1 more year before you have absolutely 0 control over any of their actions and at 17 you should be more at the stage of mentoring rather than nitpicking (as that will invite tons of backlash).

I am of the opinion that addictions in children (as long as they live under your roof) are precisely the things that a parent should get involved with and ensure that in no uncertain terms that the child understands just how destructive they can be. And if a child has not been able to partake of the sacrament for an extended period of time b/c of porn use, then that is an addiction-i.e. something the child is not able to stop for any length of time.

If one wants to argue that porn. isn't that bad then that is another discussion (I happen to believe it is very destructive).

So if you are a parent of a child that has an addiction, what do you do? Well, you do everything in your power to ensure that the child has the full capability to break it. For drugs, that might mean a rehab center, or a change of location, or a suspension of driving privileges, etc.

You don't bring a knife to a gunfight. You hit it hard, you hit is fast and you make an impression. With kids you bring a bazooka to a gunfight if you want to solve the problem.

Ditching internet might seem drastic, but which is worse allowing him to wallow in his addiction and then he leaves home goes to college and then has full access to whatever he wants to regardless of time of day? Or at least help him break the addiction, even if it is only for small period of time so he can understand what it is like to be free of it?

I use to constantly worry about my sons and if they'll ever have a porn addiction until I started reading about the problem when a parent goes overboard and it ignites the condition. I don't know what is right or if there needs to be a happy medium.

I don't know if you saw that I edited my reply awhile ago to you and mentioned how I had re-read your post and understood better what you meant. I hope my sons aren't addicted, they are out of the house, and I never bring it up. Probably because of all I've read about it being a problem if you go overboard on saying something is addiction. Will that do something to their minds? 

But I understand how it can get out of hand. But if an LDS young man thinks they are super sinful for doing it will it make them feel hopeless or like they may as well just go full on since they're sinners anyway? 

But I don't know, it's just my way of thinking I guess. I've no real experience and no real knowledge about it other than some reading. 

Edited June 26, 2017 by Tacenda

[YJacket]

7 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I use to constantly worry about my sons and if they'll ever have a porn addiction until I started reading about the problem when a parent goes overboard and it ignites the condition. I don't know what is right or if there needs to be a happy medium.

I don't know if you saw that I edited my reply awhile ago to you and mentioned how I had re-read your post and understood better what you meant.

No worries-it's good.

It is a fine line; like the briar patch.  If you tell your kids every day, porn is bad, porn is bad, porn is bad, they might just rebel and say well let me see what is so bad about it anyways! Sometimes not drawing attention to it is the best way . . .

So I completely agree with not igniting the condition; sometimes we can do our kids a disservice by doing that.  Being a parent can be challenging and how to handle each situation is different and requires lots of inspiration.  Not igniting is different than knowing about the problem and trying to help them take responsibility and help them fix themselves.

[thesometimesaint]

17 hours ago, MorningStar said:

I thought toddlers were hard, but teenagers are way harder and they influence the rest of the family.  I have a son who is struggling.  He has a testimony, but he hasn't been taking the sacrament and intentionally sabotages us when it comes to being to church on time or often doesn't go because he is avoiding the awkwardness of refusing the sacrament or blessing it.    He's had some people with good intentions push the issue, "Come on!  Why don't you want to bless it?"  DUH!!!  He had to pull a kid aside and explain that he was having personal issues so he would finally get it.  

Anyway, I'm trying not to make it a power struggle, but we have three teenage boys, an 8-year-old girl, and a 2-year-old girl.  I don't want them learning that they can just blow off church like their brother is attempting to do, but as he is late every single week, others don't bother to get ready because they know we're not leaving on time anyway, so why bother?  We miss taking the sacrament the majority of the time and if I were to say, "We're leaving without you if you're late", then he would be fine with that.  So usually we wait for him to show we love him and don't want to go to church without him.  

I've asked about what incentive would work.  If we are on time every week for x amount of weeks, is there a reward that would motivate them?  We can't just drive back and forth and our other boys aren't making it to church to pass the sacrament or anything because of their brother.  I don't know how tough to get with this boy and visits with the bishop aren't helping.  This morning we were supposed to be there at 8:15 because I needed to warm up with the choir, but we made it an hour later than that.  The choir director was worried because she really needed my voice.  One lady had to drop out at the last minute.  

Ugh.

Anyway, I know many of you have probably gone through similar things and I could use some advice as I pray about this.

Keep reminding him that you love him, involve him to whatever extent he lets you. Encourage good behavior, and try to overlook some of the bad ones

[bluebell]

I don't agree with bishops asking kids not to take the sacrament for "M" or for pornography.  I know of grown men, high councilmen struggling with pornography, who are working with their bishop and the stake and they are still allowed to take the sacrament and are encouraged to attend the temple weekly.

I know of a high priest who had a three year affair with multiple women, attending the temple and performing ordinances the whole time, who confessed to his bishop and only had to deal with disfellowshipment, of which not taking the sacrament or saying prayers in church was the hardest 'visual' aspect of his repentance process.  

I don't think that a teenager should be facing more difficult discipline than those grown endowed men.

[katherine the great]

12 hours ago, MorningStar said:

Thank you.  <3  I've told him many times, "You're one of the rare boys who's being honest."  Other issues are youth temple trips.  Someone in the bishopric even asked, "Why didn't you go?"  Again - DUH.  Meanwhile his Scout leader was going to the temple while his wife was on the verge of divorcing him/had a separate bedroom because of his addiction/total violation of her boundaries. And the dude lied to me.  I reached out to him and said, "Hey, you've probably noticed my son has been avoiding situations ...."  He said, "Yeah, I talked to him about my addiction, blah blah blah."  I asked my son about it and he said, "No he didn't!"  

This issue is going on four years now.  

If it's any comfort to you, my three boys are all well married now and seem to have very healthy relationships with their wives.  They bring me much more joy at this point in my life than my daughters.   I love my girls fiercely, but sometimes I think American girls are generally more messed up than our boys.  

[bsjkki]

9 minutes ago, katherine the great said:

If it's any comfort to you, my three boys are all well married now and seem to have very healthy relationships with their wives.  They bring me much more joy at this point in my life than my daughters.   I love my girls fiercely, but sometimes I think American girls are generally more messed up than our boys.  

Yes...my son is doing much better than my daughter. He even overcame issues with "m" and a porn addiction but he is still in therapy. He is active and happily married. Therapy has helped the most and I would say some Bishops helped and some caused setbacks. Some provided hope in Christ and others made him feel worthless and he defined himself by his weaknesses which only made this problem worse. I wish your Bishop had a different view of things. I agree with Bluebell.

I thought in handbook one it now stated problems with "m" did not involve church discipline. Am I wrong?

[katherine the great]

13 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

Yes...my son is doing much better than my daughter. He even overcame issues with "m" and a porn addiction but he is still in therapy. He is active and happily married. Therapy has helped the most and I would say some Bishops helped and some caused setbacks. Some provided hope in Christ and others made him feel worthless and he defined himself by his weaknesses which only made this problem worse. I wish your Bishop had a different view of things. I agree with Bluebell.

I thought in handbook one it now stated problems with "m" did not involve church discipline. Am I wrong?

I have no idea.  I don't really even know how much of a problem this one was for my boys.  I just make the assumption that it is completely normal and that all boys do it. I didn't really get involved in their interaction with their priesthood leaders but I did voice my opinion to them (my sons) that I believe there are some things that fall into the category of "none of anyone else's business".