ksfisher Posted June 22, 2017 Posted June 22, 2017 (edited) 26 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said: And how much would that value be different from the money spent? Maybe plus or minus 5-10 percent? It's still WAY more than the LDS Church's 40 million. Even cut that 291 million in half and it's still way more. Plus, look at how much the LDS church brings in annually--around 7 BILLION. I would start by dividing the 290 million by 7. That's how the non-profit I work for figures things. For every 1 dollar donated we are able to provide 7 dollars worth of goods and services is what we tell our donors. But that still appears high compared to how much money they are taking in. I don't know what formula they are using to figure value per dollar spent. Edited June 22, 2017 by ksfisher sp 1
Ouagadougou Posted June 22, 2017 Author Posted June 22, 2017 4 minutes ago, ksfisher said: I would start by dividing the 29 million by 7. That's how the non-profit I work for figures things. For every 1 dollar donated we are able to provide 7 dollars worth of goods and services is what we tell our donors. But that still appears high compared to how much money they are taking in. I don't know whay formula they are using to figure value per dollar spent. Still more than the LDS Church -- but they bring in way less annually -- around 2 Billion. LDS Church: ~ 7 Billion annually 40 million in humanitarian aid
juliann Posted June 22, 2017 Posted June 22, 2017 13 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said: And how much would that value be different from the money spent? Maybe plus or minus 5-10 percent? It's still WAY more than the LDS Church's 40 million. Even cut that 291 million in half and it's still way more. Plus, look at how much the LDS church brings in annually--around 7 BILLION. My sister, a nurse, and her husband, a doctor are on a humanitarian mission. Do you have any idea of what the worth of their time is for 18 mos? Now start multiplying. And don't forget Helping Hands. 4
Rain Posted June 22, 2017 Posted June 22, 2017 Wouldn't the difference be like this: My charity spends $1 on a ball of yarn. My volunteer knits a scarf with that yarn and then we give it to poor children. If we had sold it instead we could have sold it for $9. The money donated would be $1. The value of the aid would have been $9. So to explain it like Oug is explaining it would be that LDS donated a dollar and 7th day gave away goods with a value of aid of $9. It seems to me that LDS could have even donated that $1 to 7th day who made the scarf and the scenereo would still work. Either way it is comparing 2 different things. 3
ksfisher Posted June 22, 2017 Posted June 22, 2017 16 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said: Still more than the LDS Church -- but they bring in way less annually -- around 2 Billion. LDS Church: ~ 7 Billion annually 40 million in humanitarian aid You still don't know how much the Adventists actually spend, or the value of the aid provided by the LDS church. You still have no basis upon which to reach a conclusion.
ksfisher Posted June 22, 2017 Posted June 22, 2017 15 minutes ago, juliann said: My sister, a nurse, and her husband, a doctor are on a humanitarian mission. Do you have any idea of what the worth of their time is for 18 mos? Now start multiplying. And don't forget Helping Hands. According to payscale.com the average family doctor makes $172,00/year, Average RN $61,000/year. So the total value of aid provided by a year of service by an average doctor and average RN could be reported as $231,000. Nothing to sneeze at whether they are Adventists or LDS. 1
Calm Posted June 22, 2017 Posted June 22, 2017 13 minutes ago, ksfisher said: According to payscale.com the average family doctor makes $172,00/year, Average RN $61,000/year. So the total value of aid provided by a year of service by an average doctor and average RN could be reported as $231,000. Nothing to sneeze at whether they are Adventists or LDS. Don't forget they are also paying for their own expenses.
Ouagadougou Posted June 22, 2017 Author Posted June 22, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, ksfisher said: You still don't know how much the Adventists actually spend, or the value of the aid provided by the LDS church. You still have no basis upon which to reach a conclusion. Let's take a look at the LDS Welfare Fact Sheet: From 1985 to 2009: $327 million cash donations $884 value of material assistance Less than 1/3 was actual money... https://archive.org/stream/LdsWelfareFactSheet2009/LDS_Church_2009_WelfareFactSheet#page/n0/mode/1up So, from the BILLIONS the church makes annually, they only donated an average of ~$14 million a year in terms of cash donations (from 1985 to 2009); that's like $1.00 to $1.25 a year per member, right? Edited June 22, 2017 by Ouagadougou
Ouagadougou Posted June 22, 2017 Author Posted June 22, 2017 1 hour ago, juliann said: My sister, a nurse, and her husband, a doctor are on a humanitarian mission. Do you have any idea of what the worth of their time is for 18 mos? Now start multiplying. And don't forget Helping Hands. Still wouldn't come close to cost of the City Creek Mall...
juliann Posted June 22, 2017 Posted June 22, 2017 6 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said: Still wouldn't come close to cost of the City Creek Mall... This kind of looks like a "hey, look over here!" diversion rather than resolving the 7th Day Adventist matter you brought up. 3
Ouagadougou Posted June 22, 2017 Author Posted June 22, 2017 7 minutes ago, juliann said: This kind of looks like a "hey, look over here!" diversion rather than resolving the 7th Day Adventist matter you brought up. Look at what I wrote above from the LDS fact sheet on welfare; nearly 2/3 is calculated as value of material assistance...not money.
Calm Posted June 22, 2017 Posted June 22, 2017 49 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said: Look at what I wrote above from the LDS fact sheet on welfare; nearly 2/3 is calculated as value of material assistance...not money. That only includes material assistance, not volunteer hours. 1
USU78 Posted June 22, 2017 Posted June 22, 2017 6 hours ago, ksfisher said: You still don't know how much the Adventists actually spend, or the value of the aid provided by the LDS church. You still have no basis upon which to reach a conclusion. Nor are we required to. We can, however, all be glad of so much being done by so many.
CV75 Posted June 22, 2017 Posted June 22, 2017 7 hours ago, Ouagadougou said: Those 20 million slaves and/or refugees (that are more than the total membership of the church) are not really "enjoying" this plan, in many cases. Not according to Viktor Frankl, to offer a secular source (we are free to consciously choose our response to any event or circumstance). Even YOU are doing that, and as long as YOU are, YOU are enjoying the blessings of the plan of salvation, like it or not. Everyone has the blessings of life and/or conscience, which are what Jesus atoned for. And who are you to say what constitutes the "full" blessings of the plan, something you apparently do not understand? 1
Tacenda Posted June 22, 2017 Posted June 22, 2017 I learned in class the other day of the word "shifting". I see a lot of that shifting going on now. Aren't the numbers the OP offered enough? I guess not.
CV75 Posted June 22, 2017 Posted June 22, 2017 14 minutes ago, Tacenda said: I learned in class the other day of the word "shifting". I see a lot of that shifting going on now. Aren't the numbers the OP offered enough? I guess not. The question that was misunderstood and/or dodged and the other that was dodged outright (thus "shifting" the point of the question to an irrelevant object) were not about numbers. 1
Robert F. Smith Posted June 22, 2017 Posted June 22, 2017 9 hours ago, Ouagadougou said: Building malls in the name of the Lord...it doesn't get more worldly than that IMO. I guess in the end, it always comes down to the $, even for churches in some cases. I think you may have hit the nail on the head in this case. As with the Jews and Seventh Day Adventists, we are deeply engaged with the real world, in which there is no true difference between the secular and sacred. We are engaged on all fronts simultaneously. God seems to push us to understand that actions speak louder than words, and that we need to use what we are given to make this world as beautiful and friendly as possible. Does that mean that being "worldly" is a bad thing?
Robert F. Smith Posted June 22, 2017 Posted June 22, 2017 9 hours ago, Ouagadougou said: How is it not valid? The Adventists clearly spend WAY more on humanitarian aid than the LDS Church. So what? Mormons do far more than their part, and should be celebrated for it. I am in full accord with the idea that has been expressed that the Lord is using many agencies; his work is not confined to the Latter-day Saints, for he has called many to his service outside of the Church and has endowed them with power, has inspired them to do his work. … However, my brethren and sisters, do not let us lose sight of the fact that we are a power in the earth for good and for the spread of the truth and the establishment of peace among all nations, kindreds, tongues and peoples. Teachings of the Presidents of the Church: Joseph Fielding Smith (SLC: CJCLDS, 2013), 272, citing Conference Report, Oct 1919, pp. 89-90, Apostle Orson F. Whitney said:"[God] is using not only his covenant people, but other peoples as well, to consummate a work, stupendous, magnificent, and altogether too arduous for this little handful of Saints to accomplish by and of themselves." Conference Report, April 1921, pp. 32-33, https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1991/10/the-gospel-a-global-faith.p15?lang=eng . You take something wonderful and find fault. Why? 2
Calm Posted June 22, 2017 Posted June 22, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, Tacenda said: I learned in class the other day of the word "shifting". I see a lot of that shifting going on now. Aren't the numbers the OP offered enough? I guess not. If someone looked at you and your neighbour and commented how much more she contributes to society with her money donations, material contributions and volunteer work than you do because you only give so much money to charity while ignoring the many long volunteer hours you put in, would you believe the numbers offered were enough? Compare apples to apples or rather compare the one mix of fruit to the other's mix of fruit, not just the apples in the second case. If you are going to make accusations of shifting, CFR where it occurs. If there is a lot of it, should be easy to document. Edited June 22, 2017 by Calm
Tacenda Posted June 22, 2017 Posted June 22, 2017 (edited) 18 minutes ago, Calm said: If someone looked at you and your neighbour and commented how much more she contributes to society with her money donations, material contributions and volunteer work than you do because you only give so much money to charity while ignoring the many long volunteer hours you put in, would you believe the numbers offered were enough? Compare apples to apples or rather compare the one mix of fruit to the other's mix of fruit, not just the apples in the second case. If you are going to make accusations of shifting, CFR where it occurs. If there is a lot of it, should be easy to document. Just that the numbers given by the Adventist's are larger donations than the LDS. It appears that the numbers are now being shifted to instead, how many hours are donated. I appreciate that the church always, always mentions that it's members donate to humanitarian causes. They never mention "the church", according to the talks/reports I've seen/heard. I think that's great that they do that. So I would never want to throw the members under the bus, "they" are to be thanked because it is them. My problem and the OP's I'm thinking, is that the church doesn't part with the monies as well as the other churches. Why can't the corporate side of the church do that? Like other corporations out there that donate so much? I understand the church needs to spend tithing money, mostly, on temples/church buildings, and other things in order to build the kingdom. ETA: I rescind my word "shifting". I believe the posters were just adding information not entirely changing the subject. My apologies. Edited June 22, 2017 by Tacenda
thesometimesaint Posted June 22, 2017 Posted June 22, 2017 1 minute ago, Tacenda said: Just that the numbers given by the Adventist's are larger donations than the LDS. It appears that the numbers are now being shifted to instead, how many hours are donated. I appreciate that the church always, always mentions that it's members donate to humanitarian causes. They never mention "the church", according to the talks/reports I've seen/heard. I think that's great that they do that. So I would never want to throw the members under the bus, "they" are to be thanked because it is them. My problem and the OP's I'm thinking, is that the church doesn't part with the monies as well as the other churches. Why can't the corporate side of the church do that? Like other corporations out there that donate so much? I understand the church needs to spend tithing money, mostly, on temples/church buildings, and other things in order to build the kingdom. Because we have more commitments including helping the poor by giving money. You don't like the Temple TDB.
Tacenda Posted June 22, 2017 Posted June 22, 2017 1 minute ago, thesometimesaint said: Because we have more commitments including helping the poor by giving money. You don't like the Temple TDB. What do you mean by the bold TSS? What is TDB, not on top of it I guess. And I'm short on my posting abilities since being on "limited" so I may not reply, thanks. What do you mean, I don't like the temple, for one thing, let alone TDB. Because nothing in my remark said that.
ksfisher Posted June 22, 2017 Posted June 22, 2017 (edited) 16 minutes ago, Tacenda said: Just that the numbers given by the Adventist's are larger donations than the LDS. It appears that the numbers are now being shifted to instead, how many hours are donated. As I tried to explain to the OP, he was comparing two different things. The numbers he had for the Adventists was the total value of the aid they provided. This could be in the form on money donated, material, commodities, in-kind donations, or volunteer hours. To this total he was comparing how much money the LDS church spent, leaving out donations of material, commodoties, in-kind donations, and volunteer hours. The OP was making comparisons and drawing conclusions without understanding what the numbers meant. Edited June 22, 2017 by ksfisher 1
thesometimesaint Posted June 22, 2017 Posted June 22, 2017 9 minutes ago, Tacenda said: What do you mean by the bold TSS? What is TDB, not on top of it I guess. And I'm short on my posting abilities since being on "limited" so I may not reply, thanks. What do you mean, I don't like the temple, for one thing, let alone TDB. Because nothing in my remark said that. Too Darn Bad. You keep on claiming the Church spends too much money on its Temples. " My problem and the OP's I'm thinking, is that the church doesn't part with the monies as well as the other churches. Why can't the corporate side of the church do that? Like other corporations out there that donate so much? I understand the church needs to spend tithing money, mostly, on temples/church buildings, and other things in order to build the kingdom" .
Tacenda Posted June 22, 2017 Posted June 22, 2017 3 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said: Too Darn Bad. You keep on claiming the Church spends too much money on its Temples. " My problem and the OP's I'm thinking, is that the church doesn't part with the monies as well as the other churches. Why can't the corporate side of the church do that? Like other corporations out there that donate so much? I understand the church needs to spend tithing money, mostly, on temples/church buildings, and other things in order to build the kingdom" . Sorry to disappoint you.
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