More refugees and/or slaves in the world today than members of the church

[Ouagadougou]

10 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

So you are better at telling the Church how to spend its money than the people called to do it. Put your finances on-line so we can make corrections in how you spend yours.

I give more than 1% of my income to humanitarian aid...not something the LDS Church can claim.  

[Ouagadougou]

49 minutes ago, CV75 said:

This sad. Even sadder that two of you gave the same reply! This is why I didn't bother with Tacenda's post--I didn't want to embarrass her. Neither of you seemed to understand my question, what a conclusion is, or your own comment that prompted my first question (which is why I asked the second question).

First, you make the nonsensical reply that you know that "only less than 1 percent of humanity right now" is enjoying the plan because "The church proclaims it is the ONLY true church on the face of the earth; therefore, you can't fully enjoy all the blessings of this plan without joining the fold."

My question was how you conclude what follows the "therefore." There had already been been plenty of explanations to the contrary in this thread. But you have to wrap your mind around the first question first.

You don't bother with her post because she provided numerous references to illustrate that you can't enjoy the "fullness" of the plan of salvation without joining the church.  How is my reply nonsensical?  

Take a look at this:

https://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-47-exaltation?lang=eng

"Requirements for Exaltation

The time to fulfill the requirements for exaltation is now (see Alma 34:32–34). President Joseph Fielding Smith said, “In order to obtain the exaltation we must accept the gospel and all its covenants; and take upon us the obligations which the Lord has offered; and walk in the light and the understanding of the truth; and ‘live by every word that proceedeth forth from the mouth of God’” (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:43).

To be exalted, we first must place our faith in Jesus Christ and then endure in that faith to the end of our lives. Our faith in Him must be such that we repent of our sins and obey His commandments.

He commands us all to receive certain ordinances:

1. We must be baptized.

2. We must receive the laying on of hands to be confirmed a member of the Church of Jesus Christ and to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

3. Brethren must receive the Melchizedek Priesthood and magnify their callings in the priesthood.

4. We must receive the temple endowment.

5. We must be married for eternity, either in this life or in the next."

Based on requirements for exaltation listed above, it's safe to say that maybe 5 million people (active LDS members) on Earth are worthy and are enjoying the FULLNESS of the gospel.  If it's not that big a deal, then why get baptized in the first place?  Around 5 million out of 7 BILLION meet the requirements for exaltation for humanity right now--this is what is nonsensical.  

[thesometimesaint]

32 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said:

I give more than 1% of my income to humanitarian aid...not something the LDS Church can claim.  

I give about 15% to the Church, Plus paid for 2 full time Missionaries myself. in addition I give generously other charities and causes I feel are worthwhile. I am well blessed.

[ksfisher]

2 hours ago, Ouagadougou said:

The Adventists give 20 times more to humanitarian aid than the LDS Church

CFR please.

[CV75]

even sadder...

 

 

Edited June 21, 2017 by CV75

[Ouagadougou]

1 hour ago, ksfisher said:

CFR please.

https://www.adventist.org/en/information/statistics/article/go/-/seventh-day-adventist-world-church-statistics-2014/

Their website shows they gave $291 million in humanitarian aid (2 billion tithing), while the LDS Church gave around $40 million (around 7 billion they earn annually).  The LDS Church gives a very small percentage of its net income to humanitarian aid (less than one percent).  The Adventists give well over 10% of its annual tithing/income to humanitarian aid.  

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865657898/LDS-Church-welfare-humanitarian-efforts-average-40-million-per-year-apostle-says.html

 

[Ouagadougou]

38 minutes ago, CV75 said:

even sadder...

 

 

Yep, it's sad that 99.9% of humanity isn't enjoying the "fullness" of God's plan.  

[ksfisher]

14 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said:

https://www.adventist.org/en/information/statistics/article/go/-/seventh-day-adventist-world-church-statistics-2014/

Their website shows they gave $291 million in humanitarian aid (2 billion tithing), while the LDS Church gave around $40 million (around 7 billion they earn annually).  The LDS Church gives a very small percentage of its net income to humanitarian aid (less than one percent).  The Adventists give well over 10% of its annual tithing/income to humanitarian aid.  

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865657898/LDS-Church-welfare-humanitarian-efforts-average-40-million-per-year-apostle-says.html

 

The Adventist site says the total value of their aid was 291 million.  This is different than actually spending 291 million.   Value of aid could also include volunteer hours as well as in-kind donations.  I don't think the 291 million total value vs the 40 million spent comparrison you have made is comparable.

[ksfisher]

20 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said:

Yep, it's sad that 99.9% of humanity isn't enjoying the "fullness" of God's plan.  

The plan of salvation entails Gods children coming to earth, receiving a body, returning to him, and being judged according to the light that they were given.  We are all participating in this plan.  

[Ouagadougou]

17 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

The plan of salvation entails Gods children coming to earth, receiving a body, returning to him, and being judged according to the light that they were given.  We are all participating in this plan.  

But 99.9% are still not enjoying the full blessings...

[Ouagadougou]

24 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

The Adventist site says the total value of their aid was 291 million.  This is different than actually spending 291 million.   Value of aid could also include volunteer hours as well as in-kind donations.  I don't think the 291 million total value vs the 40 million spent comparrison you have made is comparable.

Any way you want to slice, the Adventists spend significantly more on humanitarian aid (from tithing and annual revenue) than the LDS Church.  The Adventists from their numbers spend around 12%, while the LDS Church spends less than 1%.   

Edited June 21, 2017 by Ouagadougou

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Ouagadougou said:

But 99.9% are still not enjoying the full blessings...

No, 100% are not.  No one will receive the full potential of blessings until the resurrection.

Added:  However, as CV says 100% are enjoying blessings from the Plan; 100% have for example received a body.  

You can no more compare "enjoyment" of blessings than you can "enjoyment" of life.  A very rich, very active LDS may not be enjoying life much because of boredom due to apathy.  They may be very self centered and clueless about what the gospel actually means even if baptized and endowed.

Otoh, a poor nonChristian somewhere out there may be surrounded by loving friends and family and feel that he has the best blessings of all.  And because he returns the love and tries his hardest to serve others, his awareness of the Gospel is hundreds of times fuller than the awareness of the rich, active Mormon.

Only God can judge present awareness and actual access to blessings.

Edited June 22, 2017 by Calm

[ksfisher]

23 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said:

Any way you want to slice, the Adventists spend significantly more on humanitarian aid (from tithing and annual revenue) than the LDS Church.  The Adventists from their numbers spend around 12%, while the LDS Church spends less than 1%.   

The Adventist site does not say how much they spend.  It only gives the value of the aid they provided (which is significant and to be praised).  I work for a nonprofit and understand the difference between the value of aid given and money spent on aid.  They are two different things.  You are comparing two different things.  Your comparison is not valid.  

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Ouagadougou said:

Yep, it's sad that 99.9% of humanity isn't enjoying the "fullness" of God's plan.  

But that's not how it is. You don't seem to have been able to follow that conversation. It's your thread, the least you can do is keep up!

Posted Tuesday at 09:21 AM

Posted Tuesday at 10:54 AM

Posted Tuesday at 12:13 PM

Thus every single person brought into the world is enjoying the plan in some fashion. Those who know about it may enjoy it differently than those who don't, or than those who reject it, but 100% of God's children "in the world today" enjoy it, just as they have all along.

[MiserereNobis]

Helping humanity is more than just giving money.  Of course Jesus taught us that our religion should be squarely with helping the poor and needy, and of course throughout history Christians have fallen down at this charge.  But Christ didn't say the only way to help the poor was to give them money.  In fact, remember how Jesus was criticized for allowing the sinful woman to pour perfume on his feet.  Judas in particular was offended, saying that they could have sold the perfume and given the money to the poor.

If you had been there, would you have offered up the same criticism?  It seems like it.  The criticism is not really about helping the poor, but attacking something you disagree with.

In Catholicism, we believe firmly in the power of prayer.  There are contemplative monasteries where the sole purpose of the monks and nuns is to pray for the world.  We believe that these prayers are incredibly effective, because the monastics are sacrificing so much to offer them.  They are not giving money to the poor or doing much that would be considered from a secular/financial point-of-view as helping the poor; however, from the religious point-of-view they are doing incredible work at great personal cost. They are pouring perfume on Christ's feet, and He is pouring out blessings on the world because of it.

Edited June 22, 2017 by MiserereNobis

[ksfisher]

4 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

Helping humanity is more than just giving money.  Of course Jesus taught us that our religion should be squarely with helping the poor and needy, and of course throughout history Christians have fallen down at this charge.  But Christ didn't say the only way to help the poor was to give them money.  In fact, remember how Jesus was criticized for allowing the sinful woman to pour perfume on his feet.  Judas in particular was offended, saying that they could have sold the perfume and given the money to the poor.

If you had been there, would you have offered up the same criticism?  It seems like it.  The criticism is not really about helping the poor, but attacking something you disagree with.

In Catholicism, we believe firmly in the power of prayer.  There are contemplative monasteries where the sole purpose of the monks and nuns is to pray for the world.  We believe that these prayers are incredibly effective, because the monastics are sacrificing so much to offer them.  They are not giving money to the poor or doing much that would be considered from a secular/financial point-of-view as helping the poor; however, from the religious point-of-view they are doing incredible work at great personal cost. They are pouring perfume on Christ's feet, and He is pouring out blessings on the world because of it.

Wonderful thoughts. 

[thesometimesaint]

5 hours ago, Ouagadougou said:

But 99.9% are still not enjoying the full blessings...

No one on this planet is enjoying its full blessings in mortality. Those come after this life.

[Robert F. Smith]

9 hours ago, Ouagadougou said:

The Adventists give 20 times more to humanitarian aid than the LDS Church and are not spending billions to build large malls last time I checked.  Yes, I am very critical of the church at times because I was raised in the church and even continue to go, but I don't think the church or others even hold the church (its leaders) accountable in many cases.  

By that measure you should be viciously condemning the Adventists for not giving as much as the Roman Catholics to charitable causes.  You appear to have it in for those benighted Mormons.

Also, in bringing in the City Creek Mall issue, you ignore the principle of wisely investing to reap the benefits on behalf of the Lord.  Jesus himself gave strong condemnation to those who are given some money and do not invest it on the Lord's behalf (Matthew 25:14-30, Luke 19:12-27),

Quote

 ¶ For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord’s money.
19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:

 

[Ouagadougou]

5 hours ago, ksfisher said:

The Adventist site does not say how much they spend.  It only gives the value of the aid they provided (which is significant and to be praised).  I work for a nonprofit and understand the difference between the value of aid given and money spent on aid.  They are two different things.  You are comparing two different things.  Your comparison is not valid.  

How is it not valid?  The Adventists clearly spend WAY more on humanitarian aid than the LDS Church.  

[Ouagadougou]

5 hours ago, CV75 said:

But that's not how it is. You don't seem to have been able to follow that conversation. It's your thread, the least you can do is keep up!

Posted Tuesday at 09:21 AM

Posted Tuesday at 10:54 AM

Posted Tuesday at 12:13 PM

Thus every single person brought into the world is enjoying the plan in some fashion. Those who know about it may enjoy it differently than those who don't, or than those who reject it, but 100% of God's children "in the world today" enjoy it, just as they have all along.

Those 20 million slaves and/or refugees (that are more than the total membership of the church) are not really "enjoying" this plan, in many cases.  

[Ouagadougou]

29 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Also, in bringing in the City Creek Mall issue, you ignore the principle of wisely investing to reap the benefits on behalf of the Lord.  Jesus himself gave strong condemnation to those who are given some money and do not invest it on the Lord's behalf (Matthew 25:14-30, Luke 19:12-27),

Building malls in the name of the Lord...it doesn't get more worldly than that IMO.  I guess in the end, it always comes down to the $, even for churches in some cases.  

[ksfisher]

14 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said:

How is it not valid?  The Adventists clearly spend WAY more on humanitarian aid than the LDS Church.  

 

The chart that you've you've pulled your info from says the following:

Total Value of Aid  $291,556,608

Do you not understand that the total value of the aid given is not the same as money spent?  They are not the same thing.  They are different.  

Please find on the Adventist website how much money they say thay've spent.  You can't, because they don't give that information!

This is frustrating, perhaps someone else can explain that total value and money spent are just not the same thing!!!

 

Edited June 22, 2017 by ksfisher

[Ouagadougou]

5 hours ago, Calm said:

Otoh, a poor nonChristian somewhere out there may be surrounded by loving friends and family and feel that he has the best blessings of all.  And because he returns the love and tries his hardest to serve others, his awareness of the Gospel is hundreds of times fuller than the awareness of the rich, active Mormon.

Only God can judge present awareness and actual access to blessings.

Edited 4 hours ago by Calm

So why even join the church if one can be happier more aware outside of it?  Does the church even agree that you can be more aware of the gospel/truth outside of the church without joining the fold and baptism?  

"While they who reject this glad message

Shall never such happiness know."

Edited June 22, 2017 by Ouagadougou

[Ouagadougou]

1 minute ago, ksfisher said:

 

The chart that you've you've pulled your info from says the following:

Total Value of Aid  $291,556,608

Do you not understand that the total value of the aid given is not the same as money spent?  They are not the same thing.  They are different.  

Please find on the Adventist website how much money they say thay've spent.  You can't, because they don't give that information!

This is frustrating, perhaps someone else can explain that total value and money spent are just not the same thing!!!

 

And how much would that value be different from the money spent?  Maybe plus or minus 5-10 percent?  It's still WAY more than the LDS Church's 40 million.  Even cut that 291 million in half and it's still way more.  Plus, look at how much the LDS church brings in annually--around 7 BILLION.  

[ksfisher]

Deleted, misread a number.

Edited June 22, 2017 by ksfisher