stemelbow Posted June 20, 2017 Posted June 20, 2017 16 minutes ago, CV75 said: I don't think this is entirely accurate. Through His Atonement, He addressed the healing and perfection of all His children, whether they suffered in this world before or after He did. That is an absolutely, perfectly active and attentive God. I do accept the atonement teaching. I don't see how that equates to "an absolutely, perfectly active and attentive God". He did a great work. It will in the end, I hope. save humanity. BUt as of now, there's no doubt there is great disparity in the world and always has been. It's true that some people go through this world without any seeming help from God, or any help that might get is not attributed to God since they don't know Him. WHile people suffer, God does little in the now. That does not mean He won't make it right. He might. I hope He does. If He doesn't then I'll probably be more pissed. But for now, no, it doesn't seem like He's actively pulling our millions into safe zones, or out of hunger and poverty. He leaves that to us, it seems.
CV75 Posted June 20, 2017 Posted June 20, 2017 45 minutes ago, stemelbow said: I do accept the atonement teaching. I don't see how that equates to "an absolutely, perfectly active and attentive God". He did a great work. It will in the end, I hope. save humanity. BUt as of now, there's no doubt there is great disparity in the world and always has been. It's true that some people go through this world without any seeming help from God, or any help that might get is not attributed to God since they don't know Him. WHile people suffer, God does little in the now. That does not mean He won't make it right. He might. I hope He does. If He doesn't then I'll probably be more pissed. But for now, no, it doesn't seem like He's actively pulling our millions into safe zones, or out of hunger and poverty. He leaves that to us, it seems. We are in the crux of the chiasma, a crucible, so it may be difficult to step back and see the opposition in action, and see that He made all things right from the beginning, according to plan. This too is in Mosiah 4 (verses 6-7; also do a Book of Mormon word search of "redemption foundation world" and "before foundation world" in the D&C). All humanity saw it from before the foundation of the world, which is why we chose to come to earth. We are blessed if we see it now also, but if not, no problem. His Atonement is more than a great work; it reverses all despair, destruction and disparity/injustice. It is incumbent upon those of us who are so blessed to see it to render aid of any kind we are able while in the midst of this crucible--in ding so we are only following the actions of Him who has been so active all along.
thesometimesaint Posted June 20, 2017 Posted June 20, 2017 THE EIGHT BEATITUDES OF JESUS "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are they who mourn, for they shall be comforted. Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth. Blessed are they who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied. Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy. Blessed are the pure of heart, for they shall see God. Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called children of God. Blessed are they who are persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." 2
stemelbow Posted June 20, 2017 Posted June 20, 2017 1 hour ago, CV75 said: We are in the crux of the chiasma, a crucible, so it may be difficult to step back and see the opposition in action, and see that He made all things right from the beginning, according to plan. This too is in Mosiah 4 (verses 6-7; also do a Book of Mormon word search of "redemption foundation world" and "before foundation world" in the D&C). All humanity saw it from before the foundation of the world, which is why we chose to come to earth. We are blessed if we see it now also, but if not, no problem. His Atonement is more than a great work; it reverses all despair, destruction and disparity/injustice. It is incumbent upon those of us who are so blessed to see it to render aid of any kind we are able while in the midst of this crucible--in ding so we are only following the actions of Him who has been so active all along. i'm not sure I'm getting where you're coming from, but it sounds nice.
JLHPROF Posted June 20, 2017 Posted June 20, 2017 (edited) 10 hours ago, Ouagadougou said: For those who believe the church is the ONLY true church on the face of the earth, how do you reconcile a plan of salvation that only accounts for such a small percentage (less than 1%) of humanity today? There are more refugees and/or slaves than members of the church today, was this all part of God's omnipotent plan for his ONLY true church and humanity? I reconcile it by understanding that the Celestial salvation was always going to be a small percent of God's children, the majority of them not wanting to follow the laws required. I reconcile it by understanding that salvation and resurrection and immortality are free gifts that ALL his children are going to partake of those. I reconcile it by understanding that we will have a 1000 year long millennial period where all ordinances will be completed, all those who are willing to follow a Celestial law will be brought up to that level, and NOBODY will lose out on any opportunity that they don't willingly reject. As for "God's plan" being to allow slavery and refugees - if you think this earth is be run by God's plan instead of our mortal foolishness, you are dreaming. Most of what goes on on this planet is a result of mortal agency, not divine intervention. Edited June 20, 2017 by JLHPROF
stemelbow Posted June 20, 2017 Posted June 20, 2017 5 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: I reconcile it by understanding that the Celestial salvation was always going to be a small percent of God's children, the majority of them not wanting to follow the laws required. I've thought that's what the assumption within the Church was too. I brought it up here and many challenged that, as I recall. Do we have anything definitive to say this? I can't figure out, though, how this is reconciling it, in any sense. "It's ok, because most weren't meant to live with God anyway?" 5 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: I reconcile it by understanding that salvation and resurrection and immortality are free gifts that ALL his children are going to partake of those. That's reconciling it? I'm not sure how. 5 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: I reconcile it by understanding that we will have a 1000 year long millennial period where all ordinances will be completed, all those who are willing to follow a Celestial law will be brought up to that level, and NOBODY will lose out on any opportunity that they don't willingly reject. It may be that God makes up for it. That to me is our only hope. 5 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: As for "God's plan" being to allow slavery and refugees - if you think this earth is be run by God's plan instead of our mortal foolishness, you are dreaming. Most of what goes on on this planet is a result of mortal agency, not divine intervention. agreed on that.
thesometimesaint Posted June 20, 2017 Posted June 20, 2017 We are meant to be with God in the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom. What we choose for ourselves is a different question. 1
JLHPROF Posted June 20, 2017 Posted June 20, 2017 4 minutes ago, stemelbow said: I've thought that's what the assumption within the Church was too. I brought it up here and many challenged that, as I recall. Do we have anything definitive to say this? I can't figure out, though, how this is reconciling it, in any sense. "It's ok, because most weren't meant to live with God anyway?" D&C 88 and 130 both definitively describe our level of salvation as a direct correlation to our willingness to obey law. Not as a reward/punishment paradigm, but as a resulting qualification. Just as you cannot practice as a doctor without getting your MD and license. Agency reconciles the idea that God despite knowing many would choose not to follow him had children anyway. Don't we have children not knowing what sort of people they will grow to be? Quote That's reconciling it? I'm not sure how. It reconciles the idea that God created some children just to be damned. We don't believe that. The atonement reconciles the discrepancy between salvation and those who don't accept the gospel. It provides a salvation for them as well. The fact that they don't get to dwell with God for eternity isn't the issue. God didn't create knowing that only a few would be saved and most would be lost and damned. He knew only a few would want to live as he does, but he didn't create them to be lost. I don't see any contradiction there. 1
CV75 Posted June 20, 2017 Posted June 20, 2017 1 hour ago, stemelbow said: i'm not sure I'm getting where you're coming from, but it sounds nice. It is nice. If it's important to you, do you have some questions that would help me better convey where I'm coming from?
CV75 Posted June 20, 2017 Posted June 20, 2017 19 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: D&C 88 and 130 both definitively describe our level of salvation as a direct correlation to our willingness to obey law. Not as a reward/punishment paradigm, but as a resulting qualification. Just as you cannot practice as a doctor without getting your MD and license.Agency reconciles the idea that God despite knowing many would choose not to follow him had children anyway. Don't we have children not knowing what sort of people they will grow to be? It reconciles the idea that God created some children just to be damned. We don't believe that. The atonement reconciles the discrepancy between salvation and those who don't accept the gospel. It provides a salvation for them as well. The fact that they don't get to dwell with God for eternity isn't the issue. God didn't create knowing that only a few would be saved and most would be lost and damned. He knew only a few would want to live as he does, but he didn't create them to be lost. I don't see any contradiction there. I'll take this a step further back in "time" or at least in principle: I believe God has children knowing that all are saved through an Atoning Son. Then, as you say, we choose to follow Him. I think this gets to the foundation principle that the Atonement of Christ was arranged from before the foundation of the world, making the Lord active and ever-present in the lives of those who suffer. I'm also suggesting that God's ability to have children required an Atoning One (whether in His behalf or Him providing that work Himself) as a pre-mortal, mortal and prior to His exaltation. 1
stemelbow Posted June 20, 2017 Posted June 20, 2017 31 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: D&C 88 and 130 both definitively describe our level of salvation as a direct correlation to our willingness to obey law. Not as a reward/punishment paradigm, but as a resulting qualification. Just as you cannot practice as a doctor without getting your MD and license. Agency reconciles the idea that God despite knowing many would choose not to follow him had children anyway. Don't we have children not knowing what sort of people they will grow to be? WE're not God. Are you saying He doesn't know the end result of you or me? He doesn't know now whether either of us will be exalted? 31 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: It reconciles the idea that God created some children just to be damned. We don't believe that. The atonement reconciles the discrepancy between salvation and those who don't accept the gospel. It provides a salvation for them as well. The fact that they don't get to dwell with God for eternity isn't the issue. God didn't create knowing that only a few would be saved and most would be lost and damned. He knew only a few would want to live as he does, but he didn't create them to be lost. I don't see any contradiction there. But what about those who will be damned for eternity? Did He know not before that they would be? One of the things you may or may not hear in Church is the idea that God knows us so well He knows what we will choose, or some such thing. But if so, then it seems to be that even from the start, whatever start we may want to suggest here either when we were organized before the world was or when we started here, I guess, He knew who would be damned and who would not be. No?
california boy Posted June 20, 2017 Posted June 20, 2017 There is a movie that I quite like. It is about a Mormon missionary. This missionary makes a comment about the sunday comics. As a child he would put them inches from his face. They were nothing but a mess of dots. It didn't make any sense at all. But when you pull the paper away from you, you could see a clear picture. He goes on to explain that perhaps life is like that. Up close, everything looks just like random dots. Something going on here. Something going on there. But none of it makes sense. But God's perspective is one from a further distance away, and all of it makes sense to Him. If you believe in God, then you have to trust Him. Maybe the Mormon church is only a part of the bigger picture. Maybe there are many parts that don't seem connected to us now, but to God it makes perfectly good sense. 1
JLHPROF Posted June 20, 2017 Posted June 20, 2017 1 minute ago, stemelbow said: WE're not God. Are you saying He doesn't know the end result of you or me? He doesn't know now whether either of us will be exalted? That's very Calvinist of you. It makes this whole life a big waste of time...a pointless endeavor. I believe God knows us better than we know ourselves, so yes, he may have a pretty good idea. However, the very existence of this mortal plane and agency shows that it cannot be certain knowledge. Quote But what about those who will be damned for eternity? Did He know not before that they would be? One of the things you may or may not hear in Church is the idea that God knows us so well He knows what we will choose, or some such thing. But if so, then it seems to be that even from the start, whatever start we may want to suggest here either when we were organized before the world was or when we started here, I guess, He knew who would be damned and who would not be. No? I don't believe God has certain knowledge. I have repeatedly rejected the idea of omniscience and continue to do so. Imagine - if you knew you weren't going to be exalted, or worse, that you were going to be damned, no matter what because God had already seen it? Don't know about you but suicide would seem the best choice. I do not believe God operates on a knowledge of who will be damned and who will be saved.
thesometimesaint Posted June 20, 2017 Posted June 20, 2017 We are not Calvinists. We believe in Agency. It is one thing to know that my children would touch a hot stove. It is quite another to force them to do it. Have no fear, anyone that really wants to be in the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom will be there.
stemelbow Posted June 20, 2017 Posted June 20, 2017 8 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: That's very Calvinist of you. It makes this whole life a big waste of time...a pointless endeavor. I believe God knows us better than we know ourselves, so yes, he may have a pretty good idea. However, the very existence of this mortal plane and agency shows that it cannot be certain knowledge. I agree. He doesn't know. But, I think a common idea amongst Church members is that he knows us so well He knows whether we'll be exalted or not--type of idea. 8 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: I don't believe God has certain knowledge. I have repeatedly rejected the idea of omniscience and continue to do so. Thanks for the clarification. 8 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: Imagine - if you knew you weren't going to be exalted, or worse, that you were going to be damned, no matter what because God had already seen it? Don't know about you but suicide would seem the best choice. I do not believe God operates on a knowledge of who will be damned and who will be saved. Me either. So that's cool. It really speaks on this though. There's no telling whether God will settle the issues raised in the OP or not. We don't know what He will do on an individual level. I suppose we can say, "Oh, He'll make it all nice and neat and all that in the end" but again, that's just guesswork, for as you say, even He doesn't know the ultimate end of each of us.
Robert F. Smith Posted June 20, 2017 Posted June 20, 2017 (edited) 5 hours ago, Ouagadougou said: Of course I am familiar with the church's teachings -- I was raised in the church. I understand that one of the overarching missions/goals of the church is to redeem the dead. However, it seems that more emphasis is placed on redeeming the dead than actually helping the living who are suffering greatly. And you know this how? You have numbers in dollars expended on each enterprise? Yeh, didn't think so . . . Indeed, the LDS Church members currently donate more to charity per capita than any other religious organization. Quote Even with all of the temple work that is going on, what percentage of all humanity that has ever lived has been baptized into the fold? It's a very small percentage in my opinion. Probably true, but that is merely an idle observation and unworthy of you. Why do you imagine that the Millennium is supposed to be a time in which to complete that massive project? Edited June 20, 2017 by Robert F. Smith 1
JLHPROF Posted June 20, 2017 Posted June 20, 2017 22 minutes ago, stemelbow said: There's no telling whether God will settle the issues raised in the OP or not. We don't know what He will do on an individual level. I suppose we can say, "Oh, He'll make it all nice and neat and all that in the end" but again, that's just guesswork, for as you say, even He doesn't know the ultimate end of each of us. That's not the premise of this thread though. The premise of this thread is the usual "so many people don't accept the gospel that to say we have to accept it or be damned is problematic" trope. That premise is entirely faulty. Mormonism teaches that EVERYONE will have the opportunity to accept and follow the laws of the gospel or reject them. It also teaches that we will have 1000 years to fix any necessary ordinances for those who can't get them in this life. AND it teaches that salvation is guaranteed for all but Perdition, and that none else will be lost, even if they choose not to follow the laws necessary to live with God. So for me, that reconciles the OP just fine. The only real question for me is the one you raised - God's supposed precognition and omniscience. And for me, like Brigham Young taught, God continues to learn, and therefore does not know everything.
Calm Posted June 20, 2017 Posted June 20, 2017 (edited) 5 hours ago, Ouagadougou said: Of course I am familiar with the church's teachings -- I was raised in the church. I understand that one of the overarching missions/goals of the church is to redeem the dead. However, it seems that more emphasis is placed on redeeming the dead than actually helping the living who are suffering greatly. Even with all of the temple work that is going on, what percentage of all humanity that has ever lived has been baptized into the fold? It's a very small percentage in my opinion. And that would be a problem if all depended only on what we could do for the next year. But it does not and you say you are familiar with these teachings. We have the Millenium to finish the work and if you know this as a former member, you seem to be intentionally misrepresenting Church teaching to make it appear a hopeless, useless enterprise. Why misrepresent rather than deal with what we actually teach? Edited June 20, 2017 by Calm
thesometimesaint Posted June 20, 2017 Posted June 20, 2017 When my children were very young they thought I knew everything. Then while in their teens their old man didn't know anything. They are now in their late 30's and mid 40's and Dad is a good man who try's his best to be a good father and Grandfather. Whatever Gods knowledge, it is far more than I know, but someday hope to know.
Ouagadougou Posted June 20, 2017 Author Posted June 20, 2017 27 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: And you know this how? You have numbers in dollars expended on each enterprise? Yeh, didn't think so . . . Indeed, the LDS Church members currently donate more to charity per capita than any other religious organization. Probably true, but that is merely an idle observation and unworthy of you. Why do you imagine that the Millennium is supposed to be a time in which to complete that massive project? Look at what the Seventh Day Adventists provide: https://www.adventist.org/en/information/statistics/article/go/-/seventh-day-adventist-world-church-statistics-2014/ They provide over $290 million on humanitarian aid, which is more than 20 TIMES what the LDS Church provides. Assuming that the church gives ~$40 million a year to charity, that's still peanuts with regard to how much money the church has and continues to make each year. http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865657898/LDS-Church-welfare-humanitarian-efforts-average-40-million-per-year-apostle-says.html https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bloomberg.com/amp/news/articles/2012-07-18/how-the-mormons-make-money If the church is making ~$7-8 BILLION a year and giving away $40 million for humanitarian purposes, then that's less than 1 percent of its net income. Many corporations give a greater percentage of their net income to charity than the LDS church. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/jacquelynsmith/2013/07/16/americas-most-generous-companies/amp/ Now, what's the cost to build and maintain the 156 operating LDS temples in the world? I would think it's way more than $40 million a year, IMO. The suffering in the world don't need new, extravagant temples; rather, they need food, clean water, shelter, and love, IMO. So...yes, IMO, the LDS church is too focused on doing meaningless ordinances for the dead, while not focusing enough on those who are in need today. http://www.businessinsider.com/fancy-mormon-temples-2014-8 I actually think the Seventh Day Adventists do a much greater job than the LDS Church in terms of providing humanitarian support. The Church should take notes from the Seventh Day Adventists... http://www.adventist.org/en/service/humanitarian-work/
Ouagadougou Posted June 20, 2017 Author Posted June 20, 2017 9 minutes ago, Calm said: And that would be a problem if all depended only on what we could do for the next year. But it does not and you say you are familiar with these teachings. We have the Millenium to finish the work and if you know this as a former member, you seem to be intentionally misrepresenting Church teaching to make it appear a hopeless, useless enterprise. Why misrepresent rather than deal with what we actually teach? What have I misrepresented? The Church is more focused on building temples and doing temple work than helping the suffering today, IMO.
Rain Posted June 20, 2017 Posted June 20, 2017 (edited) Perhaps you are unaware of I was a Stranger, a website dedicated to help refugees. The church has lists and links of how to help and organizations to get involved with. The church also has Justserve.org that makes it easy to find and volunteer for charities and for organizations to volunteer for. There are a number of organizations in the Phoenix alone that help refugees. Today I talked with twin sisters who every week are in charge of finding people to donate groceries, furniture etc for 1 or 2 apartments for refugees newly coming into the US. Many of these items might be provided by the government, but if they are then they are a loan for these people who start off in a new country, often with language difficulties and sometimes with teaching, accounting, medical certifications that mean nothing in this country, no car, no phone etc - so it is more difficult to get a job. In a nutshell they have an instant loan in a time it will be very difficult for them to get a job. So this organization gets donations so that the refugees have a little hand up as they come in to this country. It is Tuesday and these 2 women have already had double the time helping the refugees than they will in church AND this time they went to purchase some of the food going to those refugees. But they were not alone. There was an LDS family that helped them. And a non LDS mom and her daughter. This was a small apartment of 2 men. They have done a family of 10 in the same week as they did a family of 6. These 2 women do it nearly every week of the year and each time they send out an email list to family, friends and ward members to help with the moving, the donations, the food etc. They are not alone. Two women I know volunteer in title 1 schools every week. Where did they hear about this particular thing? Through church. As a stake Just Serve rep I am training ward reps to help every person in their ward boundaries to register and use Just Serve to help meet all the charity needs in our area and beyond. The missionaries work in our homeless shelters and with refugee organizations. It is funny for me to hear about how some think it is better to do charitable work than church, but I wonder why they can't do both? I know many people at church who are doing both and I am not talking about service as part of a calling. Edited June 20, 2017 by Rain 1
Calm Posted June 20, 2017 Posted June 20, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Ouagadougou said: What have I misrepresented? The Church is more focused on building temples and doing temple work than helping the suffering today, IMO. You have misrepresented that it is a problem for the plan of salvation that only a small number in the here and now have access to Temple ordinances. "how do you reconcile a plan of salvation that only accounts for such a small percentage (less than 1%) of humanity today? " If you want to criticize the Church for building temples, then do that for actual issues. Don't construct false reasons that don't actually apply. Edited June 20, 2017 by Calm 1
Ouagadougou Posted June 20, 2017 Author Posted June 20, 2017 1 hour ago, Calm said: You have misrepresented that it is a problem for the plan of salvation that only a small number in the here and now have access to Temple ordinances. "how do you reconcile a plan of salvation that only accounts for such a small percentage (less than 1%) of humanity today? " If you want to criticize the Church for building temples, then do that for actual issues. Don't construct false reasons that don't actually apply. Once again, where is the misrepresentation? Look at the church in the world today: Maybe 5 million active members out of 7.5 billion people. And all-know God created such an amazing plan that only less than 1 percent of humanity right now is enjoying?
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