USU78 Posted June 20, 2017 Posted June 20, 2017 3 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said: Once again, where is the misrepresentation? Look at the church in the world today: Maybe 5 million active members out of 7.5 billion people. And all-know God created such an amazing plan that only less than 1 percent of humanity right now is enjoying? You who lived through Yahoo Serious seriously ask such a silly question?
Calm Posted June 20, 2017 Posted June 20, 2017 (edited) 17 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said: Once again, where is the misrepresentation? Look at the church in the world today: Maybe 5 million active members out of 7.5 billion people. And all-know God created such an amazing plan that only less than 1 percent of humanity right now is enjoying? "Right now enjoying" is not the same thing as "only accounts for". The Plan of Salvation accounts for all humanity by being a Plan that operates/applies in the past, present, and future. No one is currently receiving the full benefits the Plan of Salvation provides. While many receive blessings in the here and now, the most significant ones will be postmortality and probably quite some time after death. To represent the Plan of Salvation as only relevant in the here and now is a misrepresentation. Edited June 20, 2017 by Calm 1
CV75 Posted June 20, 2017 Posted June 20, 2017 4 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said: Once again, where is the misrepresentation? Look at the church in the world today: Maybe 5 million active members out of 7.5 billion people. And all-know God created such an amazing plan that only less than 1 percent of humanity right now is enjoying? How do you know "that only less than 1 percent of humanity right now is enjoying" the plan? I believe every single person brought into the world is enjoying the plan in some fashion. Those who know about it may enjoy it differently than those who don't, or than those who reject it, but 100% of God's children "in the world today" enjoy it, just as they have all along. 1
Ouagadougou Posted June 20, 2017 Author Posted June 20, 2017 2 minutes ago, Calm said: While many receive blessings in the here and now, the most significant ones will be postmortality and probably quite some time after death. So it's more focused on the dead than the living?
Ouagadougou Posted June 20, 2017 Author Posted June 20, 2017 8 minutes ago, CV75 said: How do you know "that only less than 1 percent of humanity right now is enjoying" the plan? I believe every single person brought into the world is enjoying the plan in some fashion. Those who know about it may enjoy it differently than those who don't, or than those who reject it, but 100% of God's children "in the world today" enjoy it, just as they have all along. Only those who are baptized and join the church can enjoy the full blessing of the gospel and this plan, right?
thesometimesaint Posted June 20, 2017 Posted June 20, 2017 8 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said: So it's more focused on the dead than the living? No. But we do claim that what we do is save souls. What profit it a man to gain to gain the whole earth, but loose his very soul? 1
Calm Posted June 20, 2017 Posted June 20, 2017 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said: So it's more focused on the dead than the living? No, it is one that builds upon past experience. Just as education isn't more focused on postgraduates, but is as important to experience at the elementary stages as it is at the stages where potential is realized. If you have been a member, how do you not understand this? Mortality has never been about how many nice things and experiences one can accumulate during one's lifetime. Edited June 20, 2017 by Calm 1
thesometimesaint Posted June 20, 2017 Posted June 20, 2017 2 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said: Only those who are baptized and join the church can enjoy the full blessing of the gospel and this plan, right? Yes, but that is not limited to just this life.
CV75 Posted June 20, 2017 Posted June 20, 2017 50 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said: Only those who are baptized and join the church can enjoy the full blessing of the gospel and this plan, right? My question was / is: How do you know "that only less than 1 percent of humanity right now is enjoying" the plan?
Robert F. Smith Posted June 21, 2017 Posted June 21, 2017 9 hours ago, Ouagadougou said: Look at what the Seventh Day Adventists provide: https://www.adventist.org/en/information/statistics/article/go/-/seventh-day-adventist-world-church-statistics-2014/ They provide over $290 million on humanitarian aid, which is more than 20 TIMES what the LDS Church provides. Assuming that the church gives ~$40 million a year to charity, that's still peanuts with regard to how much money the church has and continues to make each year. http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865657898/LDS-Church-welfare-humanitarian-efforts-average-40-million-per-year-apostle-says.html https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bloomberg.com/amp/news/articles/2012-07-18/how-the-mormons-make-money If the church is making ~$7-8 BILLION a year and giving away $40 million for humanitarian purposes, then that's less than 1 percent of its net income. Many corporations give a greater percentage of their net income to charity than the LDS church. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/jacquelynsmith/2013/07/16/americas-most-generous-companies/amp/ Now, what's the cost to build and maintain the 156 operating LDS temples in the world? I would think it's way more than $40 million a year, IMO. The suffering in the world don't need new, extravagant temples; rather, they need food, clean water, shelter, and love, IMO. So...yes, IMO, the LDS church is too focused on doing meaningless ordinances for the dead, while not focusing enough on those who are in need today. http://www.businessinsider.com/fancy-mormon-temples-2014-8 I actually think the Seventh Day Adventists do a much greater job than the LDS Church in terms of providing humanitarian support. The Church should take notes from the Seventh Day Adventists... http://www.adventist.org/en/service/humanitarian-work/ I consider the humanitarian efforts of the Seventh-Day Adventists as very commendable, and you are right to mention their vast efforts -- in which they specialize. One could also mention the even greater humanitarian work of Catholic Relief (the LDS Church sometimes funnels its cash contributions through Catholic Relief, since they are present and capable in so many areas of the world). However, both those churches have more members than the LDS Church, and the Adventists at least are not obeying specific instructions from the Lord to save all of mankind (both living and dead) through a multifaceted program of chapel and temple building, along with vast genealogical efforts. You automatically discount any of that as meaningless. You also fail to make estimates based on per capita contributions, and Mormons (based on IRS figures) contribute more per capita than any other religious group to charitable causes. Your complaint seems to be that Mormon charitable expenditures are not where you want them to go. You also invent figures, or borrow hyper-inflated figures for the income of the LDS Church. You claim that "Many corporations give a greater percentage of their net income to charity than the LDS church," but fail to cite any examples. Such corporate contributions, while wonderful, are made fully knowing that they are tax-deductible. I think it great that Bill Gates and his wife have taken their vast wealth and formed a foundation dedicated to worldwide humanitarian work. You seem to think that such is a sad commentary on the Mormons, which is a rather negative judgment. I prefer to be positive about it. You seem to go out of your way to seek occasion against the Mormon Church, making your selective value judgments the measure of all rectitude. You really consider that fair? Do you yourself bother to make actual humanitarian contributions to anything? Do you really care, brother? Or are you just bitter and angry? 3
USU78 Posted June 21, 2017 Posted June 21, 2017 8 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: I consider the humanitarian efforts of the Seventh-Day Adventists as very commendable, and you are right to mention their vast efforts -- in which they specialize. One could also mention the even greater humanitarian work of Catholic Relief (the LDS Church sometimes funnels its cash contributions through Catholic Relief, since they are present and capable in so many areas of the world). However, both those churches have more members than the LDS Church, and the Adventists at least are not obeying specific instructions from the Lord to save all of mankind (both living and dead) through a multifaceted program of chapel and temple building, along with vast genealogical efforts. You automatically discount any of that as meaningless. You also fail to make estimates based on per capita contributions, and Mormons (based on IRS figures) contribute more per capita than any other religious group to charitable causes. Your complaint seems to be that Mormon charitable expenditures are not where you want them to go. You also invent figures, or borrow hyper-inflated figures for the income of the LDS Church. You claim that "Many corporations give a greater percentage of their net income to charity than the LDS church," but fail to cite any examples. Such corporate contributions, while wonderful, are made fully knowing that they are tax-deductible. I think it great that Bill Gates and his wife have taken their vast wealth and formed a foundation dedicated to worldwide humanitarian work. You seem to think that such is a sad commentary on the Mormons, which is a rather negative judgment. I prefer to be positive about it. You seem to go out of your way to seek occasion against the Mormon Church, making your selective value judgments the measure of all rectitude. You really consider that fair? Do you yourself bother to make actual humanitarian contributions to anything? Do you really care, brother? Or are you just bitter and angry? Let's not forget that it is an article of dialectical faith that, since religious eleemosynary [sp] efforts are effective in relieving suffering that might reduce the collective motivation to revolt, they must be stamped out. Problem is, trendy true believers aren't even aware in, I daresay, most cases why they're encouraged to take such positions.
thesometimesaint Posted June 21, 2017 Posted June 21, 2017 Poor people don't revolt. They are too busy trying to survive. 1
CV75 Posted June 21, 2017 Posted June 21, 2017 1 minute ago, thesometimesaint said: Poor people don't revolt. They are too busy trying to survive. How revolting.
Ouagadougou Posted June 21, 2017 Author Posted June 21, 2017 9 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: You seem to go out of your way to seek occasion against the Mormon Church, making your selective value judgments the measure of all rectitude. You really consider that fair? Do you yourself bother to make actual humanitarian contributions to anything? Do you really care, brother? Or are you just bitter and angry? Yes, I contribute time, money, and energy to humanitarian efforts. Of course I care, brother. I'm not bitter or angry...
Ouagadougou Posted June 21, 2017 Author Posted June 21, 2017 15 hours ago, CV75 said: My question was / is: How do you know "that only less than 1 percent of humanity right now is enjoying" the plan? Just look at the size of the church: ~16 million. The church proclaims it is the ONLY true church on the face of the earth; therefore, you can't fully enjoy all the blessings of this plan without joining the fold.
CV75 Posted June 21, 2017 Posted June 21, 2017 30 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said: Just look at the size of the church: ~16 million. The church proclaims it is the ONLY true church on the face of the earth; therefore, you can't fully enjoy all the blessings of this plan without joining the fold. Huh? How do you come to that conclusion? 2
Tacenda Posted June 21, 2017 Posted June 21, 2017 1 hour ago, CV75 said: Huh? How do you come to that conclusion? Search Results The Only True Church - Boyd K. Packer - LDS.org www.lds.org/general-conference/1985/10/the-only-true-church?lang=eng The Only True Church - Boyd K. Packer. ... The Lord said that “every man might speak in the name of God the Lord, even the Savior of the world.” (D&C 1:20). The Only True and Living Church - LDS.org https://www.lds.org/youth/article/only-true-living-church?lang=eng In doing so I know I speak against the powerful tide of what is called “political ... The Lord then referred to the Church as “the only true and living church upon the face ... Later, many of these gospel truths were lost through being diluted by the ... The Only True and Living Church - Boyd K. Packer - LDS.org www.lds.org/general-conference/1971/10/the-only-true-and-living-church?lang... The Only True and Living Church - Boyd K. Packer. ... earth, with which I, the Lord, am well pleased,speaking unto the church collectively and not individually. The True and Living Church - President Henry B. Eyring - LDS.org www.lds.org/general-conference/2008/04/the-true-and-living-church?lang=eng This is the true Church, the only true Church, because in it are the keys of the ... the members, the Apostles died without the keys being passed on to successors. ... to speak of some of the reasons I see for gratitude for a true and living Church. One true church - Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_true_church A number of Christian denominations assert that they alone represent the one true church – the ... The Catholic Church teaches that Christ instituted only one Church, and that this ... In the same document, the Council continued: "The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who, being ..... Article · Talk ... Joseph Smith and “The Only True and Living Church” | Religious ... https://rsc-dev.byu.edu/archived/.../joseph-smith-and-only-true-and-living-church The Bible, the Book of Mormon, and the Doctrine and Covenants—each of .... [14] Thus, to refer to the restored Church as “the only true church” is to speak of it as .... Roman Catholic scholar Luke Timothy Johnson has written that “being part of ... The Only True Church: Boldness without Overbearance | Religious ... https://rsc-dev.byu.edu/archived/.../only-true-church-boldness-without-overbearance Therefore, it grieves us to learn that our doctrine of only one true church can be ... And the result has always been a sense of being intimidated or put down. ... that the LDS Church and community presents two hands and says, choose one. Mormonism and the “only true and living church” | Religion News ... religionnews.com/2014/10/31/mormonism-doubt-interfaith-truth-religions/ Oct 31, 2014 - So for this week's discussion, let's talk about Mormonism and other religions. ... Do you believe this is the “only true and living church on the face of the ... The authors quote our LDS scripture about there being “holy men that ... LDS: The Only True Church? - World Religions Index wri.leaderu.com/mormonism/onlytrue.html Mormon leaders have stated that their church is the only true church, that all other Christians are apostate since the first century.
Popular Post Robert F. Smith Posted June 21, 2017 Popular Post Posted June 21, 2017 4 hours ago, Ouagadougou said: Yes, I contribute time, money, and energy to humanitarian efforts. Of course I care, brother. I'm not bitter or angry... Excellent. Sorry to have suggested otherwise. Why then, however, are you so consistently negative and unfair toward Mormons? Why not simply give credit where credit is due, as you do for the Adventists? 5
USU78 Posted June 21, 2017 Posted June 21, 2017 4 hours ago, thesometimesaint said: Poor people don't revolt. They are too busy trying to survive. Don't confuse 'em with logic.
Robert F. Smith Posted June 21, 2017 Posted June 21, 2017 5 hours ago, USU78 said: Let's not forget that it is an article of dialectical faith that, since religious eleemosynary [sp] efforts are effective in relieving suffering that might reduce the collective motivation to revolt, they must be stamped out. Problem is, trendy true believers aren't even aware in, I daresay, most cases why they're encouraged to take such positions. Is this part of the reason why the LDS Church has long had a policy of not simply giving a man a fish, but rather of figuratively teaching a man to fish so that he can provide for himself for life?
USU78 Posted June 21, 2017 Posted June 21, 2017 1 minute ago, Robert F. Smith said: Is this part of the reason why the LDS Church has long had a policy of not simply giving a man a fish, but rather of figuratively teaching a man to fish so that he can provide for himself for life? Mebbe. 1
Ouagadougou Posted June 21, 2017 Author Posted June 21, 2017 36 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: Excellent. Sorry to have suggested otherwise. Why then, however, are you so consistently negative and unfair toward Mormons? Why not simply give credit where credit is due, as you do for the Adventists? The Adventists give 20 times more to humanitarian aid than the LDS Church and are not spending billions to build large malls last time I checked. Yes, I am very critical of the church at times because I was raised in the church and even continue to go, but I don't think the church or others even hold the church (its leaders) accountable in many cases.
Ouagadougou Posted June 21, 2017 Author Posted June 21, 2017 4 hours ago, CV75 said: Huh? How do you come to that conclusion? Read Tacenda's post or go watch pretty much any General Conference.
CV75 Posted June 21, 2017 Posted June 21, 2017 19 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said: Read Tacenda's post or go watch pretty much any General Conference. This sad. Even sadder that two of you gave the same reply! This is why I didn't bother with Tacenda's post--I didn't want to embarrass her. Neither of you seemed to understand my question, what a conclusion is, or your own comment that prompted my first question (which is why I asked the second question). First, you make the nonsensical reply that you know that "only less than 1 percent of humanity right now" is enjoying the plan because "The church proclaims it is the ONLY true church on the face of the earth; therefore, you can't fully enjoy all the blessings of this plan without joining the fold." My question was how you conclude what follows the "therefore." There had already been been plenty of explanations to the contrary in this thread. But you have to wrap your mind around the first question first. 3
thesometimesaint Posted June 21, 2017 Posted June 21, 2017 1 hour ago, Ouagadougou said: The Adventists give 20 times more to humanitarian aid than the LDS Church and are not spending billions to build large malls last time I checked. Yes, I am very critical of the church at times because I was raised in the church and even continue to go, but I don't think the church or others even hold the church (its leaders) accountable in many cases. So you are better at telling the Church how to spend its money than the people called to do it. Put your finances on-line so we can make corrections in how you spend yours. 1
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