More refugees and/or slaves in the world today than members of the church

[Ouagadougou]

On the global scale, the LDS Church is quite small with just ~16 million members.  

If you look at the world today, the following figures put things into perspective:

"We are now witnessing the highest levels of displacement on record.

An unprecedented 65.6 million people around the world have been forced from home. Among them are nearly 22.5 million refugees, over half of whom are under the age of 18.

There are also 10 million stateless people who have been denied a nationality and access to basic rights such as education, healthcare, employment and freedom of movement.

In a world where nearly 20 people are forcibly displaced every minute as a result of conflict or persecution."

http://www.unhcr.org/en-us/figures-at-a-glance.html

"There are tens of millions of people trapped in various forms of slavery throughout the world today. Researchers estimate that 21 million are enslaved worldwide."

http://www.freetheslaves.net/about-slavery/slavery-today/

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/news/worldviews/wp/2013/10/17/this-map-shows-where-the-worlds-30-million-slaves-live-there-are-60000-in-the-u-s/

My questions:

For those who believe the church is the ONLY true church on the face of the earth, how do you reconcile a plan of salvation that only accounts for such a small percentage (less than 1%) of humanity today?  

There are more refugees and/or slaves than members of the church today, was this all part of God's omnipotent plan for his ONLY true church and humanity? 

[Calm]

"For those who believe the church is the ONLY true church on the face of the earth, how do you reconcile a plan of salvation that only accounts for such a small percentage (less than 1%) of humanity today? "

I don't have to reconcile it as it doesn't only account for a small percentage.  It accounts for every human being ever existed on earth, 100% of humanity.

Are you unfamiliar with our teachings of postmortality progression?  If so, please read:

https://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-41-the-postmortal-spirit-world?lang=eng

If you are familiar, why do you represent them as such?

Edited June 20, 2017 by Calm

[Darren10]

I've always read scriptures as God's chosen people being a gross (numerically) minority in the world. Ancient Hebrews escaping the Egyptians (I know there were more outside of Egypt but that's where the maon story takes place), Jesus walking among people who hated Him early Christians grossly outnumbered to the pagans around them, and as Ouagadougou points out, the LDS membership a tiny fraction compared to the world. Inthink the message God wants His people to understand is their nothingness and His everything. Even today, Christianity is the world's largest single major religion (http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html), Christians understand the need to be in their own servitude. They are to serve God and man. That, from my understanding, has always been, is and always will be a deifining character of God's chosen people. 

There is much suffering in the world. I think if people were to be more devout to their faith and the world's dominant religion being Christianity, that much of the world's ills would naturally disappear. Perhaps it is not in "God's omnipotent plan" to be this way but that we, from our choices, see this as an end result of things being destitute.

Ouga's post seems to assume that God is in full control. We as humans are supposed to combat and destroy evil. So, if we see slavery, we stop it. We see someone without healthcare, we assist. If we see someone in poverty, we help provide. So wju doesn't God? I think the answers vary and are multiply ("multiplee" ?) deep. I am convinced thogh that if we had God's ominscience and benevolence as well as His omnipotence, we would not change a single thing going on in the world as is. Evill will always get her upcomings as the rigjteous will always get their rewards but as to why bad things do not seem to stop as we commonly think of us making them stop, I do not know. We wallk by faith a lot on this. At least I do. 

[Marginal Gains]

For perspective, there are more people in Singapore than attend a Mormon Sacrament service on any given Sunday across the globe.

[RevTestament]

2 hours ago, Ouagadougou said:

On the global scale, the LDS Church is quite small with just ~16 million members.  

If you look at the world today, the following figures put things into perspective:

"We are now witnessing the highest levels of displacement on record.

An unprecedented 65.6 million people around the world have been forced from home. Among them are nearly 22.5 million refugees, over half of whom are under the age of 18.

There are also 10 million stateless people who have been denied a nationality and access to basic rights such as education, healthcare, employment and freedom of movement.

In a world where nearly 20 people are forcibly displaced every minute as a result of conflict or persecution."

http://www.unhcr.org/en-us/figures-at-a-glance.html

"There are tens of millions of people trapped in various forms of slavery throughout the world today. Researchers estimate that 21 million are enslaved worldwide."

http://www.freetheslaves.net/about-slavery/slavery-today/

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/news/worldviews/wp/2013/10/17/this-map-shows-where-the-worlds-30-million-slaves-live-there-are-60000-in-the-u-s/

My questions:

For those who believe the church is the ONLY true church on the face of the earth, how do you reconcile a plan of salvation that only accounts for such a small percentage (less than 1%) of humanity today?  

There are more refugees and/or slaves than members of the church today, was this all part of God's omnipotent plan for his ONLY true church and humanity? 

This is perfectly in line with BoM prophecy that the numbers of the Saints would be small although they would be scattered across the world. 

1 Nephi 14:12

12 And it came to pass that I beheld the church of the Lamb of God, and its numbers were ^afew, because of the wickedness and abominations of the whore who sat upon many waters; nevertheless, I beheld that the church of the Lamb, who were the saints of God, were also upon ^ball the face of the earth; and their dominions upon the face of the earth were small, because of the wickedness of the great whore whom I saw.

However, the next chapter of Church history has only just begun as the gospel will now be taken to the Hebrews through the Gentiles.

[thesometimesaint]

It just means we have our work cut out for us.

[USU78]

By volume, what is the optimum ratio of salt to steak?

[CV75]

6 hours ago, Ouagadougou said:

For those who believe the church is the ONLY true church on the face of the earth, how do you reconcile a plan of salvation that only accounts for such a small percentage (less than 1%) of humanity today?  

 

There are more refugees and/or slaves than members of the church today, was this all part of God's omnipotent plan for his ONLY true church and humanity?

In what era of human history were there not more refugees and slaves (or those living as well as such) than members of the Church? Jesus was making that point when He balanced the idea of the poor always being with us with the idea that as we treat them we treat Him (later referred to as "pure religion and undefiled before God"). These are hallmarks of the plan of salvation and the LDS Church. At the end of King Benjamin's instruction about the plan, he connect the two (Mosiah 4:26).

[Robert F. Smith]

14 minutes ago, USU78 said:

By volume, what is the optimum ratio of salt to steak?

And, if the salt has lost its savor, wherewith shall the world be salted?

Who is the salt of the Earth?

[The Nehor]

A few threads back you were arguing the world was better then it has ever been due to scientific progress showing religion was holding us back. Now the world is a horrible place filled with slavery and refugees and that shows religion is weak and ineffective.

It is almost as if you will simultaneously believe contradictory ideas if you think it can make your old faith look bad.

Have you considered that you may have an irrational grudge?

[Robert F. Smith]

7 hours ago, Ouagadougou said:

....................................................................

My questions:

For those who believe the church is the ONLY true church on the face of the earth, how do you reconcile a plan of salvation that only accounts for such a small percentage (less than 1%) of humanity today?  

There are more refugees and/or slaves than members of the church today, was this all part of God's omnipotent plan for his ONLY true church and humanity? ...............................................

Actually you have completely misstated the problem of numbers by applying only one current point in time:  By 2050 there will be far more refugees and slaves worldwide than currently.  When I was baptized in 1950, there were only 1 million Mormons, and the worldwide Jewish population had only recently been decimated by Hitler.  Back on April 6, 1830, there were only 6 Mormons.  Which point in time would be more appropriate for your strange application of false premises?

The same problem always faces the chosen people of God:  The promise is huge, but the numbers of the Saints of God are always expected to be small in proportion.  Deuteronomy 7:6-9, "For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God: the Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.  The Lord did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:  But because the Lord loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the Lord brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.  Know therefore that the Lord thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations"

 

Genesis 22:18, "And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed"

Abraham 2:11, "And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse them that curse thee; and in thee (that is, in thy Priesthood) and in thy seed (that is, thy Priesthood), for I give unto thee a promise that this right shall continue in thee, and in thy seed after thee (that is to say, the literal seed, or the seed of the body) shall all the families of the earth be blessed, even with the blessings of the Gospel, which are the blessings of salvation, even of life eternal."

 

Romans 11 and Jacob 5-6 never suggest that Israel will outnumber the Gentiles, but the promise is that the times of the Gentiles will finally be over, and that the promise then reverts to Israel.  The Abrahamic Covenant is unconditional and is not based on numbers.

 

 

[Ouagadougou]

18 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

A few threads back you were arguing the world was better then it has ever been due to scientific progress showing religion was holding us back. Now the world is a horrible place filled with slavery and refugees and that shows religion is weak and ineffective.

It is almost as if you will simultaneously believe contradictory ideas if you think it can make your old faith look bad.

Have you considered that you may have an irrational grudge?

Please provide me with the link to where I argued religion was holding us back.  

[Ouagadougou]

7 hours ago, Calm said:

"For those who believe the church is the ONLY true church on the face of the earth, how do you reconcile a plan of salvation that only accounts for such a small percentage (less than 1%) of humanity today? "

I don't have to reconcile it as it doesn't only account for a small percentage.  It accounts for every human being ever existed on earth, 100% of humanity.

Are you unfamiliar with our teachings of postmortality progression?  If so, please read:

https://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-41-the-postmortal-spirit-world?lang=eng

If you are familiar, why do you represent them as such?

Of course I am familiar with the church's teachings -- I was raised in the church.  I understand that one of the overarching missions/goals of the church is to redeem the dead.  However, it seems that more emphasis is placed on redeeming the dead than actually helping the living who are suffering greatly.  

Even with all of the temple work that is going on, what percentage of all humanity that has ever lived has been baptized into the fold?  It's a very small percentage in my opinion.  

[Ouagadougou]

8 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

By 2050 there will be far more refugees and slaves worldwide than currently.  When I was baptized in 1950, there were only 1 million Mormons, and the worldwide Jewish population had only recently been decimated by Hitler.  Back on April 6, 1830, there were only 6 Mormons.  Which point in time would be more appropriate for your strange application of false premises?

Yes, given population growth across the globe, these problems will continue into the future. My point is that the ONE true church only accounts for a sliver of humanity -- it's very insignificant on the global scale.  How many of the 16 million members are active and temple worthy?  Maybe 1/3...if that?  How can less than 1% really be the "salt is the earth?"  

[stemelbow]

7 hours ago, Ouagadougou said:

On the global scale, the LDS Church is quite small with just ~16 million members.  

If you look at the world today, the following figures put things into perspective:

"We are now witnessing the highest levels of displacement on record.

An unprecedented 65.6 million people around the world have been forced from home. Among them are nearly 22.5 million refugees, over half of whom are under the age of 18.

There are also 10 million stateless people who have been denied a nationality and access to basic rights such as education, healthcare, employment and freedom of movement.

In a world where nearly 20 people are forcibly displaced every minute as a result of conflict or persecution."

http://www.unhcr.org/en-us/figures-at-a-glance.html

"There are tens of millions of people trapped in various forms of slavery throughout the world today. Researchers estimate that 21 million are enslaved worldwide."

http://www.freetheslaves.net/about-slavery/slavery-today/

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/news/worldviews/wp/2013/10/17/this-map-shows-where-the-worlds-30-million-slaves-live-there-are-60000-in-the-u-s/

My questions:

For those who believe the church is the ONLY true church on the face of the earth, how do you reconcile a plan of salvation that only accounts for such a small percentage (less than 1%) of humanity today?  

There are more refugees and/or slaves than members of the church today, was this all part of God's omnipotent plan for his ONLY true church and humanity? 

I don't get this stuff.  I don't see it quite like other members who have responded, I guess.  It tears at me everyday, often throughout the day, as I wonder how this really works out.  I ultimately try and trust that it's in God's hands, but it scares me--has me worried for humanity in the long run.  How such ease and luxury is granted me when so many today have so little, or those many more who have lived who seem to have had even less.  What are they getting out of this world?  What should I get besides torment as I contemplate the condition of others.  On top of that, we're all busy, in the Church, meeting with each other, helping each other (so much of the time) and keeping ourselves shielded from the difficulties of the world. 

I'm not a "one True Church" advocate, nor a this is the "kingdom of God on earth" advocate mostly because of my position on this very issue (or many sets of issues) you raise.  I am nothing and powerless.  I can only hope that God knows what He's doing.  But, again, that only eases it a little for me. 

[stemelbow]

17 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said:

Yes, given population growth across the globe, these problems will continue into the future. My point is that the ONE true church only accounts for a sliver of humanity -- it's very insignificant on the global scale.  How many of the 16 million members are active and temple worthy?  Maybe 1/3...if that?  How can less than 1% really be the "salt is the earth?"  

We aren't.  The salt of the earth extends beyond members and often members seem to be as much of the problem as any, so they aren't the salt, as they think.  I might be one of those.  This issue you raise is not easy, but it's not easy for anyone, whether member or not.  The Church is just the Church.  It hasn't solved the problems for humanity and it won't in the long run.  THe Church is not God.  And for some reason God sits by while people suffer.  We can only hope He knows what He's doing.  If He's not there, well...I get that perspective.  But for some reason I think He is. 

[Ouagadougou]

2 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

I don't get this stuff.  I don't see it quite like other members who have responded, I guess.  It tears at me everyday, often throughout the day, as I wonder how this really works out.  I ultimately try and trust that it's in God's hands, but it scares me--has me worried for humanity in the long run.  How such ease and luxury is granted me when so many today have so little, or those many more who have lived who seem to have had even less.  What are they getting out of this world?  What should I get besides torment as I contemplate the condition of others.  On top of that, we're all busy, in the Church, meeting with each other, helping each other (so much of the time) and keeping ourselves shielded from the difficulties of the world. 

I'm not a "one True Church" advocate, nor a this is the "kingdom of God on earth" advocate mostly because of my position on this very issue (or many sets of issues) you raise.  I am nothing and powerless.  I can only hope that God knows what He's doing.  But, again, that only eases it a little for me. 

The harsh realities of the world also tear at me every day (and it has for several years), but I do believe that each person can make a small difference.  I've have been lucky to have traveled a lot across the world and have met many wonderful people, many of which go through tremendous suffering, but the power of the human spirit to overcome/survive is the most powerful instinct we have IMO.  

I don't have the answer as to why so many people are born in terrible circumstances; however, I do believe that living the principles Christ taught about helping the poor and suffering can only be a benefit to humanity.  I have faith that there is a God holding everything together, but it's up to us to help our fellow brothers/sisters.  All of the prayers in the world are not going to feed those who are hungry--it's only by our OWN action that we can provide the help they need.  

[USU78]

8 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

The salt of the earth extends beyond members and often members seem to be as much of the problem as any, so they aren't the salt, as they think.

To whom did He say "Ye are the salt of the earth"? 

You seem awfully eager to demonstrate that Mormons have lost their savor.

Odd, that.

[stemelbow]

1 minute ago, USU78 said:

To whom did He say "Ye are the salt of the earth"? 

You seem awfully eager to demonstrate that Mormons have lost their savor.

Odd, that.

I'm not eager for nothing.  I just think God has influenced and continues to influence many more beyond those in the Church--and in some ways as a Church we have failed and ocnintue to fail.  And, to that, I'd say we take seriously the notion that there is among us an invisible Church.  Once God takes more seriously than this man-made structure and org.  That's not to say He does not see the Church as a useful tool for his purposes though. 

[Ouagadougou]

9 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

We aren't.  The salt of the earth extends beyond members and often members seem to be as much of the problem as any, so they aren't the salt, as they think.  I might be one of those.  This issue you raise is not easy, but it's not easy for anyone, whether member or not.  The Church is just the Church.  It hasn't solved the problems for humanity and it won't in the long run.  THe Church is not God.  And for some reason God sits by while people suffer.  We can only hope He knows what He's doing.  If He's not there, well...I get that perspective.  But for some reason I think He is. 

I agree that the salt of the earth extends beyond just members of the church.  The problem I have is I hear members often claim how great the plan of salvation is, but when you take a step back and look at the problems humanity faces today, the plan can look like complete chaos with tremendous amounts of suffering.  They then justify it by saying it's just a sign of the times or God's ways are not my ways.  

This is why I get more from volunteering at homeless shelters than attending church: I know I actually helped somebody who is physically in need when I volunteer at a homeless shelter.  Yes, you can help people "spiritually" at church, but so many people in the world just need a friend to talk to, food and clean water--not three hours of meaningless religious discussions/talks, IMO. 

 

[USU78]

1 minute ago, stemelbow said:

I'm not eager for nothing.  I just think God has influenced and continues to influence many more beyond those in the Church--and in some ways as a Church we have failed and ocnintue to fail.  And, to that, I'd say we take seriously the notion that there is among us an invisible Church.  Once God takes more seriously than this man-made structure and org.  That's not to say He does not see the Church as a useful tool for his purposes though. 

Perhaps. Yet your mode of expression, as well as the accumulated effects of your posting history, permit if not compel my doubt.

[CV75]

1 minute ago, Ouagadougou said:

...the plan can look like complete chaos with tremendous amounts of suffering.

There is an overriding principle, "there is an opposition in all things"; and what you are describing is only one side of the relationship. If you really take a step back to see the big picture, you would see both sides and that the Atonement of Christ brings perfect order and perfect healing; what we can do in eternity with our agency as opposed to what can be done to us in mortality.

[CV75]

29 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

And for some reason God sits by while people suffer.

I don't think this is entirely accurate. Through His Atonement, He addressed the healing and perfection of all His children, whether they suffered in this world before or after He did. That is an absolutely, perfectly active and attentive God.

[stemelbow]

16 minutes ago, USU78 said:

Perhaps. Yet your mode of expression, as well as the accumulated effects of your posting history, permit if not compel my doubt.

Perhaps.

[stemelbow]

17 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said:

I agree that the salt of the earth extends beyond just members of the church.  The problem I have is I hear members often claim how great the plan of salvation is, but when you take a step back and look at the problems humanity faces today, the plan can look like complete chaos with tremendous amounts of suffering.  They then justify it by saying it's just a sign of the times or God's ways are not my ways.  

Agreed.  The plan, as we see it, is incomplete.  We simply can't reconcile it all, in my view.  I know many members feel like it's the most beautiful and everything fits perfectly.  But I don't.  When they say that and I ask to help me understand, I get very little in the way of reconciliation for all issues we face.  SOmeday, I hope our eyes will be open and all that seems ridiculous, unfair, stupid and all that to us now, will make sense.  I hope that, because in truth, I have nothing else to go off of.  If it doesn't somehow work out in the end, then what's the point of God at all? 

17 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said:

This is why I get more from volunteering at homeless shelters than attending church: I know I actually helped somebody who is physically in need when I volunteer at a homeless shelter.  Yes, you can help people "spiritually" at church, but so many people in the world just need a friend to talk to, food and clean water--not three hours of meaningless religious discussions/talks, IMO. 

 

Thanks.  I will add your giving people someone to talk to, a friend, food and clean water is far more in the realm of spiritual help than the Church trying to coerce people into thinking a certain way before they can be part of a community.  I know that's a harsh view of Church, but that's my take.  We're better off serving people in actuality, than busying ourselves in Church.

We had this discussion in EQ the other day because the lesson was on service.  Hinckley's message was basically saying our best service comes in serving in the Church.  I objected and gave my reasons--which I think ran along the lines you at arguing here.  THey kind of know me and expect pushback like that.  But they were all taken aback on this.  They could not fathom a member saying service in the Church is not necessarily the best service we could be a part of.  Anyway, I thnk I agree with what you are saying.