Pride

[Rain]

I have been reading of Of Lions, Dragons and Turkish Delights. In this Michael Wilcox talks about themes he finds in CS Lewis' writings. 

I've come across a passage that has really struck a tone with me. 

----------

"In Mere Christianity, Lewis wrote, “The point is that each person’s pride is in competition with every one else’s pride. It is because I wanted to be the big noise at the party that I am so annoyed at someone else being the big noise. . . . Now what you want to get clear is that Pride is essentially competitive—is competitive by its very nature—while the other vices are competitive only, so to speak, by accident. Pride gets no pleasure out of having something, only out of having more of it than the next man.”94 
                "President Ezra Taft Benson, in his landmark talk on pride, quoted from this very section of Mere Christianity.95 Lewis writes, “We say that people are proud of being rich, or clever, or good-looking, but they are not. They are proud of being richer, or cleverer, or better-looking than others. If everyone else became equally rich, or clever, or good-looking there would be nothing to be proud about. It is the comparison that makes you proud: the pleasure of being above the rest. Once the element of competition has gone, pride has gone.”96 
                "The idea that “more makes you better” is a very difficult temptation to resist. I think pride is one of the greatest dangers for us, and I think Lewis felt it was the greatest danger for us because any difference between two people is an invitation to pride. And therefore, almost every minute of the day, as long as we can see that we are different from somebody else somehow, some way, the idea might come into the mind that what makes us different is better than what makes the other person different. In Jacob 2 the Nephites are challenged by pride. Their leader, Jacob, says something to his people that is an echo of Lewis’s words: “The hand of providence hath smiled upon you most pleasingly, that you have obtained many riches; and because some of you have obtained more abundantly than that of your brethren ye are lifted up in the pride of your hearts . . . because ye suppose that ye are better than they” (Jacob 2:13). Do you see that—the more equals better idea? Any two things in competition because of an element of difference is an invitation to pride.
                "At Brigham Young University a number of years ago, when I was teaching about the lesson on pride found in the book of Jacob, I asked my students to do an experiment with me. We decided to each carry a little notebook in our pockets for a week. Every time the thought came into our minds I’m better because of some difference, we would write it down. Not that we gave into that thought, but just that the thought was there. After a week of focusing on the possibilities of pride, we would compare what we found. It was enlightening to return the next week and see what my students had experienced. Here are some from the list we compiled as a class: 
                 • Physical appearance, everything from eye color to hairstyles. 
                 • The apartment complex in which you lived, some apartment complexes were better than others. 
                 • What you were majoring in. Engineering was worth more in most of their minds than Elementary Education. 
                 • Whether you were getting a Bachelor of Arts or a Bachelor of Science degree. A BS required science, left-brain thinking. Others said, “No, the BA is more important.” 
                 • Language. Every cultured person, according to my students, can speak at least two languages. 
                 • What state they were from originally. California ranked higher than, say, Idaho. (With all due respect to people from Idaho—I’m just reporting what was said.) 
                 • The car they drove. 
                 • Their girlfriend or boyfriend.
                 • Some other obvious inclinations to pride included the clothes they wore, their grade point average, their church calling. 
                 • The work they had on- or off-campus. Working at the Missionary Training Center ranked higher than working as a janitor in the Wilkinson Center. 
                "And on and on the list went. I had decided I would complete this little experiment in pride with them as well. So I had my little card and I wrote everything down during that week. As fate would have it, that week my uncle, who ran a very exclusive clothing store in Ogden, was moving to Palm Springs and liquidating his entire inventory. He had a $600 overcoat he could not sell. This was more than twenty years ago. I don’t know what a $600 overcoat would cost today. It was beautiful—the most beautiful coat I had ever seen. He gave it to me because he wouldn’t need it in Palm Springs. It was brand new. I remember putting that on and walking across campus, looking at everybody else in their London Fog overcoats. Mine was a light beige camelhair, with bone buttons, fully lined. I can’t wear that coat. I finally had to take it off because that coat will take me right to hell, I just know it. It’s hanging in the closet. I would give it to Deseret Industries, but I don’t want to tempt somebody else. What a rascal pride is . . . and so subtle.
                "During that experiment, I beat pride down all week long. I tried to beat down every thought that “I’m better because I have more or I’m different” from morning to night. By the end of the week I was feeling pretty good about the whole thing. But then I learned something. Pride is like a gopher in the backyard of your soul with a hundred holes. He pops his head up constantly to say, “You’re better because . . .” You have to take the bat of humility and beat him down wherever he pops up. I did that all week long. At the end of the week I stood there with my bat looking at the backyard of my soul, and no gopher of pride was poking his head up. I said, “By golly, I have conquered pride. There aren’t very many people who can conquer pride. I must be better than other people.” And suddenly, I was proud of my humility, and the gopher had won. At that point, if you can laugh at yourself you have come a long way.
                "Lewis noticed this dilemma. He has Screwtape remark: “All virtues are less formidable to us once the man is aware that he has them, but this is specially true of humility. Catch him at the moment when he is really poor in spirit and smuggle into his mind the gratifying reflection, ‘By jove! I’m being humble’, and almost immediately pride—pride at his own humility—will appear. If he awakes to the danger and tries to smother this new form of pride, make him proud of his attempt—and so on, through as many stages as you please. But don’t try this too long, for fear you awake his sense of humour and proportion, in which case he will merely laugh at you and go to bed.”97 
                "Lewis felt that the solution to pride was to meet God, in particular to know his greatness, from the greatness of his mind and power to the greatness of his own humility. “In God you come up against something which is in every respect immeasurably superior to yourself. Unless you know God as that—and, therefore, know yourself as nothing in comparison—you do not know God at all. As long as you are proud you cannot know God. A proud man is always looking down on things and people: and, of course, as long as you are looking down, you cannot see something that is above you.”
        

--------

At first it struck me because I thought of the things on this board that have irritated me lately. Now I am trying to apply it to myself, but am having a difficult time of it because really there isn't much where I feel better than others right? Because, of course, I am a little  more humble than the rest of you. Lol

I joke, but it is a little painful to admit to myself that I am less humble than I thought of myself. 

What I bolded above was different than any way I have heard it defined before. It makes so much sense and surprises me I haven't seen it before. 

So I have a challenge. Think of what you have written the past couple of weeks. Is there anything you have thought as you wrote that matches that description? You need not mention what it is, but what thoughts go through your head as you do it?

 

 

 

 

Edited June 19, 2017 by Rain

[Calm]

Rain, there is some duplication in your quote towards the end, a paragraph or two.  It is easy to figure out, but you might want to fit.

PS:  great subject

Edited June 19, 2017 by Calm

[Rain]

12 minutes ago, Calm said:

Rain, there is some duplication in your quote towards the end, a paragraph or two.  It is easy to figure out, but you might want to fit.

PS:  great subject

Thanks. I was trying to copy and paste from Kindle to my phone and it wouldn't let me do the whole passage at one time. Will try to fix it now. 

OK, hopefully fixed now.

Edited June 19, 2017 by Rain

[Okrahomer]

15 hours ago, Rain said:

Pride is like a gopher in the backyard of your soul with a hundred holes. He pops his head up constantly to say, “You’re better because . . .

Thanks for this, Rain!  Yes, I can think of a few recent posts where there was an element of pride in my post.  And I absolutely think pride plays a huge role in some of the threads here that get so terribly contentious.  Valentinius posted a TED talk the other day that also seems relevant here.  The woman speaking mentioned how the Internet gives us the benefit of "time".  The way I understand that is that there is no rule that says "one must respond instantly online."  In fact, before the advent of the internet, my recollection was that we were often counseled to "hit the pause button" when we were involved in intense conversations.  I think we all should remember to do the same thing here.

[BlueDreams]

Definitely. I used to joke that God had to really ball-bust me on pride a while back. I was really really proud particularly at the beginning of my mission, and it was effecting how and if I could connect with people, particularly my companions. Obviously, that had to go. And it did.....though a lot of it was more wrapped up in pain than it was anything else. I think pride can be a big security blanket as well when we feel attacked, hurt, uncertain, or shameful. I had this moment of inspiration a little while back where I realized that pride and shame are really 2 sides of the same coin. Both of them find ways to highlight our differences in a way that leaves us removed from the rest in one way or another. And I think shame ties into the last point you have about the down man assuming being down equals humility. I think we assume that if we paint ourselves as bad people that that somehow equals humility. It's a false humility. 

I think the worst of my pride is definitely behind me. I don't assume that I know everything. I don't have as much of a need to have it my way. I'm willing to accept doing things I don't want to. I can take and even welcome honest feed back or concerns. I feel more connected to people and find more to connect me to people from all walks of life, even if I don't immediately relate. All of these were major strands of pride for me in the last few years. 

I'm sure pride has come out in weird ways for me in the last couple of weeks. In moments that I get frustrated, at least in my heart. I try to work it out before I hit the keyboard, because I know others don't deserve a dishing of superiority complex . I don't think one (or at least myself) ever fully gets rid of the pride voice that niggles into the back of one skull....but we certainly can learn to mitigate it. 

With luv,

BD

[bluebell]

Thanks for the topic Rain.  I meant to say this a couple of days ago, but it's really helped me to see pride in a different light and to work to do better.  

[CV75]

Thank you Rain, it's always nice to have a group introspection. I've found that pride for me is not in thinking my difference is better than another's, but in agressively asserting what I am, which is worse!

[thesometimesaint]

Pride is like a horse. It will take you wherever you want to go.

[BlueDreams]

So this is tangentially related to the post above. It just reminded me of the old school Pride to beware of in the BoM and because they were actually serious, it made it somehow funny in a dark way:

 

 

[Rain]

43 minutes ago, BlueDreams said:

So this is tangentially related to the post above. It just reminded me of the old school Pride to beware of in the BoM and because they were actually serious, it made it somehow funny in a dark way:

 

 

Wow. I have to process that one. I am having a very hard time trying to figure out how to say what I think about it, which means I don't have it clear in my mind. 

What is the mission/purpose of alux? 

 

[Tacenda]

2 minutes ago, Rain said:

Wow. I have to process that one. I am having a very hard time trying to figure out how to say what I think about it, which means I don't have it clear in my mind. 

What is the mission/purpose of alux? 

 

There were very few on here that might be legit. The others were not cut and dry. But this ad seemed full of pride, spilling out pride.

[BlueDreams]

25 minutes ago, Rain said:

Wow. I have to process that one. I am having a very hard time trying to figure out how to say what I think about it, which means I don't have it clear in my mind. 

What is the mission/purpose of alux? 

 

According to the about section in youtube it's this:

Quote

 

www.Alux.com is the largest community of Luxury & Fine Living enthusiasts in the World. Alux a world-wide recognized Authority when it comes to ranking the most expensive things in the world and frequently referenced in publications such as Forbes, USAToday, Wikipedia and many more as the Go-To resource in terms of luxury content! Alux.com is more than a "magazine", it is a social platform where people passionate about what it means to live an elegant, beautiful and successful life, come to enjoy, share and discuss their own take on luxury.

 

There website is.....welllll.....it kinda looks like the rameumptum entered a luxury goods store. 

 

With luv,

BD

 

[Rain]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

There were very few on here that might be legit. The others were not cut and dry. But this ad seemed full of pride, spilling out pride.

Part of my thinking is that it is possible that most may be true, but it doesn't necessarily mean what many may think it means. 

Things like the TV make complete sense. Just looked up (several websites) that Americans average 35 hours of television each week. That's almost a full time job. It makes sense that a wealthy person may not be watching as much TV because he may be choosing other things which help him be more successful. He may, also,  have aprofessional, salaried  job where he work long hours and it doesn't leave time for a lot of TV. What the tip doesn't account for is that jobs which pay less often are more physically demanding and may require the body to rest more etc.  

One of the ones I am not sure about is the rich people rising early. I know lots of poor/struggling that wake early because their jobs demand it. Those who are janitorial, bakers etc.

Yet, then I think of Rongo. He shares that he does not make much as a teacher. In the summer he gets to temp places at 4 am to get work and that many others are not willing. He talks about how well his family does on the little money they bring in. And this all has me thinking that the list should be 15 things successful people do because I see him fitting many of those things and feel he is successful despite not having a ton of money. 

And now I see that is where the pride probably comes in. It isn't "15 things successful people do" as if it was a way to help others get successful. It is "15 things poor people don’t do" - it seems to automatically put a judgment on the poor by making them different and different in a lazy way. 

 

Edited June 21, 2017 by Rain

[Rain]

Ooops.Watching it with my son again now. I'd like to hear his opinion on it.  It is "15 things poor people do that the rich don't". So I was wrong on the title, but it highlights the difference even more than I was thinking. 

 

Edited June 21, 2017 by Rain

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Rain said:

Part of my thinking is that it is possible that most may be true, but it doesn't necessarily mean what many may think it means. 

Things like the TV make complete sense. Just looked up (several websites) that Americans average 35 hours of television each week. That's almost a full time job. It makes sense that a wealthy person may not be watching as much TV because he may be choosing other things which help him be more successful. He may, also,  have aprofessional, salaried  job where he work long hours and it doesn't leave time for a lot of TV. What the tip doesn't account for is that jobs which pay less often are more physically demanding and may require the body to rest more etc.  

One of the ones I am not sure about is the rich people rising early. I know lots of poor/struggling that wake early because their jobs demand it. Those who are janitorial, bakers etc.

Yet, then I think of Rongo. He shares that he does not make much as a teacher. In the summer he gets to temp places at 4 am to get work and that many others are not willing. He talks about how well his family does on the little money they bring in. And this all has me thinking that the list should be 15 things successful people do because I see him fitting many of those things and feel he is successful despite not having a ton of money. 

And now I see that is where the pride probably comes in. It isn't "15 things successful people do" as if it was a way to help others get successful. It is "15 things poor people don’t do" - it seems to automatically put a judgment on the poor by making them different and different in a lazy way. 

 

One reason that the rich might watch less t.v. is because they have more money to spend on other entertainment options.  If you're out vacationing, hanging out at the spa, enjoying gym memberships, your yacht, etc. each month, then there is no time left for T.V.

If watching t.v. is the only entertainment you can afford though, then most of the entertainment time you have will go towards that one option.

[Calm]

"What the tip doesn't account for is that jobs which pay less often are more physically demanding and may require the body to rest more etc."

Also that many of the activities that rich people fill their days with are out of reach of the poor.  

----

If one can't afford to have an apartment that has its own decent washer and dryer or the shower is falling apart and if one doesn't have the ability to take a shower and get in clean clothes multiple times a day, if one works in jobs that require one sweats, get dirty...how is this not obvious?  Everyone has the opportunity to work in heated or AC offices in suits and only choose not to in ALux's world.

The savings suggestion is so clueless.  It is as if "poor" is just a label and has nothing to do with access to actual money.

-----

The hanging out with successful people is so clueless.

------

It is so arrogant and unaware, taking these things out of context.  What is sad is they could have adapted it to actual conditions, shown some empathy and turned out an educational video instead of a self congratulatory worship of wealth fest.

Edited June 21, 2017 by Calm

[Rain]

Out of context. Yes. That is a great deal of it. 

The savings thing. I think this one like most of them has 2 edges. They are correct that spending money on wants and not saving will keep you more poor in the long run, but the other edge is that some are so poor they do not have money for needs let alone wants. So technically they are correct that the poor do not save, but it leaves out the wider, more honest picture. 

[The Nehor]

On 6/21/2017 at 10:26 AM, BlueDreams said:

So this is tangentially related to the post above. It just reminded me of the old school Pride to beware of in the BoM and because they were actually serious, it made it somehow funny in a dark way:

 

 

In answer to this video I was going to say poor people spend their time writing meaningless articles and making cheesy "how to succeed in life" videos instead of you know, succeeding, but that seems a little redundant at this point.

I have known too many people (relatives mostly) trying to make a living telling others how to succeed to fall for this drek. They are usually broke and horribly ashamed of it.

Experience has also taught me that anyone who defines success in life entirely or even primarily in economic terms is going to be a douchebag.

[MiserereNobis]

"And again I say to you: It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of heaven."

(And don't try to say that the eye of a needle is some sort of side gate, because that is totally a middle-ages urban legend. Jesus was teaching a hard truth about wealth and spirituality.)

[Rain]

9 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

"And again I say to you: It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of heaven."

(And don't try to say that the eye of a needle is some sort of side gate, because that is totally a middle-ages urban legend. Jesus was teaching a hard truth about wealth and spirituality.)

I have lived in some places where people have really struggled financially. NOT saying you are doing this, but the funny thing I find about that scripture is how often poor use it to say they are better than the rich.

I see this kind of thing happen with a number of scriptures unfortunately. Somehow people use the scriptures to give justification to feel pride.

[The Nehor]

8 minutes ago, Rain said:

I have lived in some places where people have really struggled financially. NOT saying you are doing this, but the funny thing I find about that scripture is how often poor use it to say they are better than the rich.

I see this kind of thing happen with a number of scriptures unfortunately. Somehow people use the scriptures to give justification to feel pride.

President Benson talked about that form of pride in the talk referenced in the OP. Pride is a strange thing. I have met people with virtually no sense of self-worth that are still somehow incredibly prideful.

[bluebell]

13 hours ago, The Nehor said:

In answer to this video I was going to say poor people spend their time writing meaningless articles and making cheesy "how to succeed in life" videos instead of you know, succeeding, but that seems a little redundant at this point.

I have known too many people (relatives mostly) trying to make a living telling others how to succeed to fall for this drek. They are usually broke and horribly ashamed of it.

Experience has also taught me that anyone who defines success in life entirely or even primarily in economic terms is going to be a douchebag.

A lot of wealthy people don't seem to understand the privilege a lot of them inherit.

Pencilsword:  On a plate

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

A lot of wealthy people don't seem to understand the privilege a lot of them inherit.

Pencilsword:  On a plate

As someone who inherited a healthy dollop of privilege I can say: It is awfully nice.

[bluebell]

6 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

As someone who inherited a healthy dollop of privilege I can say: It is awfully nice.

And I don't think there's anything wrong with taking advantage of the privileges that come our way.  But if we don't recognize the privilege (and all the different ways it manifests itself) then pride is usually the result.

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

And I don't think there's anything wrong with taking advantage of the privileges that come our way.  But if we don't recognize the privilege (and all the different ways it manifests itself) then pride is usually the result.

No worries there. I might have privilege but I refuse to look on the unwashed masses with contempt. To do so would be a violation of noblesse oblige and disdaining the foul habits of the peasantry would be unworthy of someone of my exalted station.  

Edited June 23, 2017 by The Nehor