Pride

[Atheist Mormon]

14 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

"And again I say to you: It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of heaven."

(And don't try to say that the eye of a needle is some sort of side gate, because that is totally a middle-ages urban legend. Jesus was teaching a hard truth about wealth and spirituality.)

.This is not the worse one, on other occasion he said " "You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me." 

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Atheist Mormon said:

.This is not the worse one, on other occasion he said " "You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me." 

That is a harder one but Jesus only gave that injunction to one man and there were others who interacted with him that would have received the same counsel if it was general advice. My guess is that was specific to his flaws and strengths and, as far as we know, he failed. I hope he made the right decision later.

[Rain]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

And I don't think there's anything wrong with taking advantage of the privileges that come our way.  But if we don't recognize the privilege (and all the different ways it manifests itself) then pride is usually the result.

Yes, and not only recognize, but bless others with it. 

[BlueDreams]

On 6/21/2017 at 0:28 PM, Rain said:

Part of my thinking is that it is possible that most may be true, but it doesn't necessarily mean what many may think it means. 

Things like the TV make complete sense. Just looked up (several websites) that Americans average 35 hours of television each week. That's almost a full time job. It makes sense that a wealthy person may not be watching as much TV because he may be choosing other things which help him be more successful. He may, also,  have aprofessional, salaried  job where he work long hours and it doesn't leave time for a lot of TV. What the tip doesn't account for is that jobs which pay less often are more physically demanding and may require the body to rest more etc.  

One of the ones I am not sure about is the rich people rising early. I know lots of poor/struggling that wake early because their jobs demand it. Those who are janitorial, bakers etc.

Yet, then I think of Rongo. He shares that he does not make much as a teacher. In the summer he gets to temp places at 4 am to get work and that many others are not willing. He talks about how well his family does on the little money they bring in. And this all has me thinking that the list should be 15 things successful people do because I see him fitting many of those things and feel he is successful despite not having a ton of money. 

And now I see that is where the pride probably comes in. It isn't "15 things successful people do" as if it was a way to help others get successful. It is "15 things poor people don’t do" - it seems to automatically put a judgment on the poor by making them different and different in a lazy way. 

 

Finally have had more than a few minutes to catch up on stuff. My gosh, this week was busy. 

I agree it's a lot about underlying assumptions. I picked out a few themes that seemed extremely pride-oriented to me. Most of them were in their assumptions as why poor or rich may have these results, as you noted they marked an automatic judgment of the poor. But equally important to me it also showed underlying values and assumptions. 

I saw an extreme individualism that meant the individual was all in it for themselves. THey literally said something like this at the end of their video. This removes social responsibility towards the community or the world. And some of the manifestations of this also seemed to encourage removing oneself from your community or poor people in order to be successful. This was to follow self-oriented interests above all else. This also ignored the fact that the majority of the "very rich" could be such without the poor working low-end jobs. 

Along with this is that it removes culpability for the continued disparities that are growing between poor and rich. Instead of it being about potential laws, social, and corporate structures that may be reducing social mobility...it's about individual choice solely. The poor just self-sabotage, in their minds. THey do give lip-service right at the beginning for circumstances that may be out of ones control, but that's the last time it's even mentioned. 

Lastly it promoted a superficial, work for me, sort of religiosity. If it can be used to get ahead, do it. If not, then don't bother. 

Overall, it showed an self-oriented, vanity based seeking of money, power, and prestige. 

 

With luv,

BD

 

[Atheist Mormon]

On 6/23/2017 at 4:34 PM, The Nehor said:

That is a harder one but Jesus only gave that injunction to one man and there were others who interacted with him that would have received the same counsel if it was general advice. My guess is that was specific to his flaws and strengths and, as far as we know, he failed. I hope he made the right decision later.

Baloney.....Jesus meant every word He said (or whomever attributed saying to him).

[Scott Lloyd]

On 6/18/2017 at 6:38 PM, Rain said:

I have been reading of Of Lions, Dragons and Turkish Delights. In this Michael Wilcox talks about themes he finds in CS Lewis' writings. 

I've come across a passage that has really struck a tone with me. 

----------

"In Mere Christianity, Lewis wrote, “The point is that each person’s pride is in competition with every one else’s pride. It is because I wanted to be the big noise at the party that I am so annoyed at someone else being the big noise. . . . Now what you want to get clear is that Pride is essentially competitive—is competitive by its very nature—while the other vices are competitive only, so to speak, by accident. Pride gets no pleasure out of having something, only out of having more of it than the next man.”94 
             

I disagree with Wilcox that pride is the only vice that is competitive by nature. Gambling is such a vice. The only way to succeed at it is by diminishing someone else materially. 

Edited June 25, 2017 by Scott Lloyd

[Meerkat]

On 6/20/2017 at 7:32 AM, BlueDreams said:

I think pride can be a big security blanket as well when we feel attacked, hurt, uncertain, or shameful. I had this moment of inspiration a little while back where I realized that pride and shame are really 2 sides of the same coin. Both of them find ways to highlight our differences in a way that leaves us removed from the rest in one way or another. And I think shame ties into the last point you have about the down man assuming being down equals humility. I think we assume that if we paint ourselves as bad people that that somehow equals humility. It's a false humility. 

I think the worst of my pride is definitely behind me. I don't assume that I know everything. I don't have as much of a need to have it my way. I'm willing to accept doing things I don't want to. I can take and even welcome honest feed back or concerns. I feel more connected to people and find more to connect me to people from all walks of life, even if I don't immediately relate. All of these were major strands of pride for me in the last few years. 

With luv,

BD

Today I was doing a little research on the Five Solae.  Very interesting.  I found some interesting connections in Wikipedia between the Reformation and the Restoration of the Gospel where we have common cause with our other Christian friends. 

Reading BlueDreams comment on pride, I have had similar experiences (security blanket, false humility, turning a corner to welcome honest feedback or concerns, to feeling better connected to people from all walks of life, etc.) kind of a progression that seems to happen organically as I deal with my unjustifiable pride.  I would be surprised if this post doesn't resonate with most people.

I appreciated a Wikipedia quotation in the Five Solas section that struck me as the object of this exercise, overcoming our pride and hard heartedness.  It is this:

"But we need God to continually destroy self-righteous faith and to replace it with the life of Christ. We need the faith that comes from God through law and gospel, word, works and sacraments. In the founding document of the Reformation, the 95 Theses, Luther said that (1) "When our Lord and Master Jesus Christ said, 'Repent' (Matthew 4:17) He willed the entire life of believers to be one of repentance" and (95) "And thus be confident of entering into heaven through many tribulations rather than through the false security of peace (Acts 14:22)"."

I love this statement.  I believe it connects me with my Christian friends of other faiths, or even no faiths.  It is a connection to humanity, to our common quest of getting out of our own way as we seek to understand what is going on in the world and how we fit in.  As we gain maturity, the Wikipedia quotation provides a deeper meaning to the Serenity Prayer-- the stanza that says: "

"Accepting hardship as a pathway to peace,

Taking, as Jesus did,

This sinful world as it is,

Not as I would have it,

Trusting that He will make all things right,

If I surrender to His will,

So that I may be reasonably happy in this life,

And supremely happy with Him forever in the next."

 

This thought seems to me like an antidote to pride.

 

Sincerely,

Meerkat

Edited June 25, 2017 by Meerkat

[Meerkat]

On 6/18/2017 at 5:38 PM, Rain said:

So I have a challenge. Think of what you have written the past couple of weeks. Is there anything you have thought as you wrote that matches that description? You need not mention what it is, but what thoughts go through your head as you do it?

I have always wanted a 1962 Corvette.  The only problem is, I wouldnt want to be seen driving it.  There's a feeling I get knowing I wouldn't drive that car. I call it... Humility!  

Edited June 25, 2017 by Meerkat

[MorningStar]

"Go back to work and then get it."  The video sounds like a parody with the girl's snotty voice.  

Poor people don't put money into savings? I think that would be because they're poor and they don't have money to put into savings. They don't shower every day? Maybe the poor person is trying to save money on their water bill so they can put it into savings. They watch TV? Because they don't have money to go golfing, on dates, etc. 

"Most poor people are religious."  Oh my gosh. 

 

[The Nehor]

13 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said:

Baloney.....Jesus meant every word He said (or whomever attributed saying to him).

I am sorry you are incapable of understanding that one can genuinely mean some counsel they give and not intend that counsel for every person throughout time. Maybe as you grow older you will understand one day how this is possible. In the meantime have a cookie.

[Meerkat]

3 hours ago, MorningStar said:

 

"Most poor people are religious."  Oh my gosh. 

 

Probably, a higher percentage.  Being poor young married was a great blessing.  When we had nowhere else to turn, God was our refuge.  We proved our faith right there.  It set us up for a wonderful life.  And now, in the twilight years, hope and contentment for whatever may come.  If we had been rich, famous and full of ourselves, why would we need religion?  

God has a way of humbling us all.  War, disease, despots, old age.  Every person on that video will have their opportunity to choose sooner or later.  I like Elder Oakes quote, "The wheels grind slowly, but exceedingly fine."

[rodheadlee]

On 6/21/2017 at 8:26 AM, BlueDreams said:

So this is tangentially related to the post above. It just reminded me of the old school Pride to beware of in the BoM and because they were actually serious, it made it somehow funny in a dark way:

 

 

Death does not care how rich and powerful you are. It's like the ocean in that respect. Most of these people will be serving the poor for all  eternity. No, I didn't watch the video, I build their houses and fix their yachts, I bring their food to market, I grow their food,  I clean their homes, cook their food, repair their cars. Without me they are ???? What? No doubt some are kind and loving and take good care of those who take good care of them, these are the good stewards. Be thankful if you have good stewards, it makes life a lot better.

Edited June 26, 2017 by rodheadlee

[Atheist Mormon]

23 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I am sorry you are incapable of understanding that one can genuinely mean some counsel they give and not intend that counsel for every person throughout time. Maybe as you grow older you will understand one day how this is possible. In the meantime have a cookie.

Great nehor, how your response turned to "ad hominem" rather than what Jesus said? I'm probably far older than you, for beginners, when I was eating those cookies your probably were not born, Coming back to Jesus; personally I do not believe much him ever existed but surely gospels attributed to him were penned by zealot minded people.

[The Nehor]

4 minutes ago, Atheist Mormon said:

Great nehor, how your response turned to "ad hominem" rather than what Jesus said? I'm probably far older than you, for beginners, when I was eating those cookies your probably were not born, Coming back to Jesus; personally I do not believe much him ever existed but surely gospels attributed to him were penned by zealot minded people.

So you do not believe he existed......

On 6/24/2017 at 9:14 PM, Atheist Mormon said:

Baloney.....Jesus meant every word He said (or whomever attributed saying to him).

....but he or his writer meant every word he said to apply to everyone. So when he told the Pharisees they were a generation of vipers he meant everyone was a viper? When he told Peter to catch a fish and find some money in it to pay taxes he  was suggesting that today we should go fishing until we find enough inside said fishes to "render unto Caesar". And since nothing is allowed to be situational and everything Jesus says is supposed to have eternal applicability we should still be paying tribute to Caesar as our rightful lord and pull down these pretender governments. Make Rome Great Again!

You sure you do not want a cookie?

[Atheist Mormon]

On 6/26/2017 at 0:23 PM, The Nehor said:

So you do not believe he existed......

....but he or his writer meant every word he said to apply to everyone. So when he told the Pharisees they were a generation of vipers he meant everyone was a viper? When he told Peter to catch a fish and find some money in it to pay taxes he  was suggesting that today we should go fishing until we find enough inside said fishes to "render unto Caesar". And since nothing is allowed to be situational and everything Jesus says is supposed to have eternal applicability we should still be paying tribute to Caesar as our rightful lord and pull down these pretender governments. Make Rome Great Again!

You sure you do not want a cookie?

Okay Nehor, I accept your cookie but not your interpretation.....This is the type of Scripture attributed to Jesus as controversial comments of Apostle Paul disparaging women (like she should keep her mouth shut in the presence of her husband or cover her head).....Both scriptures are nonsensical.....