Popular Post juliann Posted June 18, 2017 Popular Post Posted June 18, 2017 This is a thread for those who generally defend Mormonism. I am hearing more posters say they are thinking about leaving the board because of the relentless negativity of those who post here for the sole purpose of trashing church doctrine and practices. In essence, to show those they are in perpetual disagreement with the error of our ways... without providing us anything better. It is a very unequal relationship. One side has to be ever on the defensive, the other only needs to criticize. It is the same parade every. single. day. It is demanded that we be in a constant state of reflection and humility but there is no reciprocity from those who only point fingers. It begins with how a topic is phrased. Rather than asking for an explanation of the clash between a foundational belief that a man and a woman must join to become gods/creators, homophobia is put in a cannon and reloaded liberally. Rather than acknowledge a church leader has a responsibility to maintain order under his stewardship, it is framed in the most negative manner possible, he uses the mic to control what all members say. Short of banning those who refuse to engage with intellectual honesty rather than breeze in and out only to accuse, blame, and vilify, what is the solution? Is anyone fulfilled by answering one loaded sentence after another? How can we make this a better experience? 12
thesometimesaint Posted June 18, 2017 Posted June 18, 2017 I don't expect this to be a testimony meeting either for or against the Church. But I expect a good faith effort to try to understand where we are coming from. 1
thesometimesaint Posted June 18, 2017 Posted June 18, 2017 You and I have been here for a long time now. It varies from time to time. It does seems to be on a decline right now.
readstoomuch Posted June 18, 2017 Posted June 18, 2017 It is very hard to find a faith promoting discussion board that also strives for intellectual honesty. I started a thread about it last year. In the end you have to put up with people that are pro to the point of not seeing any warts and moles or those who can only see warts or moles. If I could have a positive faith discussion with attention to scholarship and exclude the extreme for and against opinions, I would love that. 1
rpn Posted June 18, 2017 Posted June 18, 2017 If we simply didn't engage posters who do what OP decried, that should ultimately solve the problem, shouldn't it?
Jeanne Posted June 18, 2017 Posted June 18, 2017 (edited) I am just answering the OP question...no...mormons are driving mormons away...sure don't need no help from me! And I am just playing with you. But my reason for being here really is to understand more about how LDS women feel. It matters to me. Edited June 18, 2017 by Jeanne 2
Jeanne Posted June 18, 2017 Posted June 18, 2017 (edited) Whoops...after reading Julian's post, I don't think I was to have input...sorry Julian! Edited June 18, 2017 by Jeanne
Popular Post USU78 Posted June 18, 2017 Popular Post Posted June 18, 2017 If the board is going to continue its present policy of unlimited homosexuality threads (unlike the old days when only one at a time was permitted, though there was always an active thread), while at the same time shutting down defenders who argue with robustness when somebody complains (and somebody always complains), it seems too partial to the critical position to be taken seriously. Why should we bother participating at all? 10
Popular Post juliann Posted June 18, 2017 Author Popular Post Posted June 18, 2017 26 minutes ago, rpn said: If we simply didn't engage posters who do what OP decried, that should ultimately solve the problem, shouldn't it? Yeah, but it is really hard to let the slams go uncontested. Perhaps if we required that the "in our face" stuff be reworded before engagement? The likes are telling an interesting story. They don't get many. With few exceptions, and there are some, the loudest finger pointers seem to have no awareness that their words are disrespectful, incendiary, and mean-spirited. Meanwhile, we are supposed to climb in a virtual cat scan for examination, instructed as to what to do and think at every step. If we don't comply with the examination, the name calling and insults escalate. 9
Popular Post Robert F. Smith Posted June 18, 2017 Popular Post Posted June 18, 2017 2 hours ago, juliann said: This is a thread for those who generally defend Mormonism. I am hearing more posters say they are thinking about leaving the board because of the relentless negativity of those who post here for the sole purpose of trashing church doctrine and practices. In essence, to show those they are in perpetual disagreement with the error of our ways... without providing us anything better. It is a very unequal relationship. One side has to be ever on the defensive, the other only needs to criticize. It is the same parade every. single. day. It is demanded that we be in a constant state of reflection and humility but there is no reciprocity from those who only point fingers. It begins with how a topic is phrased. Rather than asking for an explanation of the clash between a foundational belief that a man and a woman must join to become gods/creators, homophobia is put in a cannon and reloaded liberally. Rather than acknowledge a church leader has a responsibility to maintain order under his stewardship, it is framed in the most negative manner possible, he uses the mic to control what all members say. Short of banning those who refuse to engage with intellectual honesty rather than breeze in and out only to accuse, blame, and vilify, what is the solution? Is anyone fulfilled by answering one loaded sentence after another? How can we make this a better experience? It may sometimes seem like that, juliann, but that is not the reality. We should count our blessings on this board. We have excellent referees, who will not hesitate to discipline those who cannot control the invective, and we do have a good deal of civility and good humor on this board. Many boards dealing with similar questions are out of control, unfair, and even bestial toward right reason and propriety. There is cynicism, yes, but I think as many are brought back to the Gospel during the discussions on this board as are temporarily lost to the Gospel. We need patience. Open debate is no threat to the truth. 12
Calm Posted June 18, 2017 Posted June 18, 2017 2 hours ago, readstoomuch said: It is very hard to find a faith promoting discussion board that also strives for intellectual honesty. I started a thread about it last year. In the end you have to put up with people that are pro to the point of not seeing any warts and moles or those who can only see warts or moles. If I could have a positive faith discussion with attention to scholarship and exclude the extreme for and against opinions, I would love that. I don't see this board as inherently faith promoting or needing to be, though some posts definitely are. I think what is being asked by Juliann and many others including myself is it to not be faith/belief deriding, either from those who do not believe the official doctrines of the Church or from those who do. Respect and awareness that for most of the posters there are very valid and intelligent and reasonable reasons they believe as they do is what I hope from the board. Leave the extreme unreasonable beliefs to the mods.. 2 hours ago, rpn said: If we simply didn't engage posters who do what OP decried, that should ultimately solve the problem, shouldn't it? Then we would likely end up having threads that were primarily critical to the Church with several critics telling each other how right they are the Church is wrong/abusive/racist/homophobic etc. and sharing ideas and anecdotes supporting their attacks (I intentionally use attacks here rather than criticism). That does not create an environment that attracts most faithful LDS. The board needs new blood of all good varieties in order to achieve its unique equilibrium, even in an ideal discussion environment there will be posters that lose interest or ability to post. This is going to speed up as the environment becomes less ideal. 2
CV75 Posted June 18, 2017 Posted June 18, 2017 3 hours ago, juliann said: How can we make this a better experience? The posters you are identifying as problematic would probably retort that they are defending the best of Mormonism just to keep the spirit of contention alive. But I would not leave the board because of them, and I hope those who are considering it do not. We all have our various approaches in dealing with aggressors, and I believe on the whole their negativity is neutralized when we speak our truth with love, even "tough love." Let all see how well we turn the other cheek.
Popular Post MorningStar Posted June 18, 2017 Popular Post Posted June 18, 2017 Yes, I'm sure they are driving away Mormons. It would be nice to have conversations without the hijacking of threads, specifically making everything about homosexuality. 10
RevTestament Posted June 18, 2017 Posted June 18, 2017 (edited) 3 hours ago, juliann said: This is a thread for those who generally defend Mormonism. I am hearing more posters say they are thinking about leaving the board because of the relentless negativity of those who post here for the sole purpose of trashing church doctrine and practices. In essence, to show those they are in perpetual disagreement with the error of our ways... without providing us anything better. It is a very unequal relationship. One side has to be ever on the defensive, the other only needs to criticize. It is the same parade every. single. day. It is demanded that we be in a constant state of reflection and humility but there is no reciprocity from those who only point fingers. I have written a response to this twice now and each time it disappeared, so I give up. P.S. Of course this time it worked. Edited June 18, 2017 by RevTestament 1
Popular Post CV75 Posted June 18, 2017 Popular Post Posted June 18, 2017 1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said: Open debate is no threat to the truth. I don't think open debate is the issue but the blatant jerkiness that infuses some of the expression. 8
Jeanne Posted June 18, 2017 Posted June 18, 2017 11 minutes ago, RevTestament said: I have written a response to this twice now and each time it disappeared, so I give up. P.S. Of course this time it worked. This is a Jeanne thing...try kicking the darn thing down the block...it works!! 2
CV75 Posted June 18, 2017 Posted June 18, 2017 2 hours ago, juliann said: Yeah, but it is really hard to let the slams go uncontested. Perhaps if we required that the "in our face" stuff be reworded before engagement? The likes are telling an interesting story. They don't get many. With few exceptions, and there are some, the loudest finger pointers seem to have no awareness that their words are disrespectful, incendiary, and mean-spirited. Meanwhile, we are supposed to climb in a virtual cat scan for examination, instructed as to what to do and think at every step. If we don't comply with the examination, the name calling and insults escalate. I think the bolded part is an excellent idea. Related to it is to have them explain, in respectful terms, what they understand the position they are challenging or critiquing to be. 1
Popular Post bluebell Posted June 18, 2017 Popular Post Posted June 18, 2017 2 hours ago, juliann said: Yeah, but it is really hard to let the slams go uncontested. Perhaps if we required that the "in our face" stuff be reworded before engagement? The likes are telling an interesting story. They don't get many. With few exceptions, and there are some, the loudest finger pointers seem to have no awareness that their words are disrespectful, incendiary, and mean-spirited. Meanwhile, we are supposed to climb in a virtual cat scan for examination, instructed as to what to do and think at every step. If we don't comply with the examination, the name calling and insults escalate. Part of what get's exasperating to me is that it sometimes feels like a constant "you believe this way/don't agree with me because you are homophobic, unloving, unkind, pharisaic, etc." It's not being disagreed with that becomes wearying but the constant having to defend against the charges that the disagreement stems from a flaw in my character. Self-righteous people are just not fun to have discussions with, plain and simple. It doesn't matter which side of the argument the person is on (and I know that some pro-church posters are known for it as well as some critics). It's not that hard to say "you believe what you do because you see this in a different way, here's why I don't agree...." and then present actual arguments or reasons that aren't focused on the person just being a jerk. We could all do it if we actually tried. 13
RevTestament Posted June 18, 2017 Posted June 18, 2017 11 minutes ago, Jeanne said: This is a Jeanne thing...try kicking the darn thing down the block...it works!! Well, my dear you now don't have an exclusive...!! Usually when it does that I can click on a quote link to start another post, and my prior answer will appear in the edit box.... but of course not this time. 1
RevTestament Posted June 19, 2017 Posted June 19, 2017 1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said: We need patience. Open debate is no threat to the truth. But 3 or more threads constantly about LGBT issues is too much imho. To me the issue is black and white. One either believes pursuing the lifestyle is a sin or not. I guess there can be some debate as to how LGBT would like to be treated, but as far as the Church is concerned the answer is going to be the same as a criticism that the Church should allow open relationships and not excommunicate adulterers. However, to a large extent whether people are getting what they want out of this forum I feel is largely dependent on themselves. If they want to see more of a certain topic or topics they should start threads on them. I would love for faithful members to do that. I have not been too good at starting threads, but as I recall the last one I started attracted some members I hadn't seen in awhile. In the past on other forums I tend to start threads as a provocateur to try to make people think about the scriptures. Here I don't have that motivation although there are a good number of areas I view differently than the typical LDS. I like the opportunity this forum gives for LDS to speak their minds, since I don't really see that at Church. But it is also just a hub for information that is otherwise hard to come by. That is why I frequent the forum, and not to respond to LGBT issues ad nauseum - since that really ends up being the same thing over and over. 3
Calm Posted June 19, 2017 Posted June 19, 2017 (edited) 29 minutes ago, bluebell said: Part of what get's exasperating to me is that it sometimes feels like a constant "you believe this way/don't agree with me because you are homophobic, unloving, unkind, pharisaic, etc." It's not being disagreed with that becomes wearying but the constant having to defend against the charges that the disagreement stems from a flaw in my character. Self-righteous people are just not fun to have discussions with, plain and simple. It doesn't matter which side of the argument the person is on (and I know that some pro-church posters are known for it as well as some critics). It's not that hard to say "you believe what you do because you see this in a different way, here's why I don't agree...." and then present actual arguments or reasons that aren't focused on the person just being a jerk. We could all do it if we actually tried. And it adds to the frustration when so often the views are misrepresented as more extreme than they are and then expecting posters to defend the misrepresentations of their beliefs. And this continues to happen no matter how many corrections are offered. There is at times little respect for allowing people to explain themselves rather than imposing one's own assumptions on them. Edited June 19, 2017 by Calm 4
Calm Posted June 19, 2017 Posted June 19, 2017 (edited) 6 minutes ago, RevTestament said: But 3 or more threads constantly about LGBT issues is too much imho. This generally happens imo when there is a particularly hot LGBT issue in the news. I have found the mods generally shut down multiple threads on the subject if it is just general. I generally don't report multiple threads if it is a hot topic and they are not just repeats, someone posting a new topic because they want their comments to stand out from the pack for example. I don't know if others are reporting them; if not, that could be why they aren't being shut down or the mods might be making a temporary exception. Edited June 19, 2017 by Calm
Calm Posted June 19, 2017 Posted June 19, 2017 7 minutes ago, RevTestament said: However, to a large extent whether people are getting what they want out of this forum I feel is largely dependent on themselves. If they want to see more of a certain topic or topics they should start threads on them. I would love for faithful members to do that. I have not been too good at starting threads, but as I recall the last one I started attracted some members I hadn't seen in awhile. Unfortunately my experience is if you try to keep a topic limited and not wandering down paths you feel are irrelevant for the purpose of the thread, you waste a lot of effort defending why. And if the topic is not a popular one, that can kill any momentum.
RevTestament Posted June 19, 2017 Posted June 19, 2017 7 minutes ago, Calm said: This generally happens imo when there is a particularly hot LGBT issue in the news. I have found the mods generally shut down multiple threads on the subject if it is just general. I generally don't report multiple threads if it is a hot topic and they are not just repeats, someone posting a new topic because they want their comments to stand out from the pack for example. I don't know if others are reporting them; if not, that could be why they aren't being shut down or the mods might be making a temporary exception. Yes, I have seen the mods shut down a LGBT thread saying there were already several, and I support that. And you are probably right about the hot news topic being an exception. I'm not really complaining although this 12 year old "testimony" issue and its corollaries seems to have just taken over the board for a few days. But like I said, if I don't like that I can start my own threads or just not participate.
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