BCSpace Posted June 7, 2017 Posted June 7, 2017 11 hours ago, thesometimesaint said: BCSpace. Long time no see my old friend. How the heck are you doing? Fine thank you. And you?
thesometimesaint Posted June 7, 2017 Posted June 7, 2017 5 hours ago, BCSpace said: Fine thank you. And you? I'm hanging in there as always.
filovirus Posted July 12, 2017 Posted July 12, 2017 Ok, I know I'm late to the party here, but here is my take on "No death before the fall". I do believe their was physical death. People and animals would live and die, just like they do now. But I don't think they had an understanding of death. Think on a dog. A dog will be born, live a good doggy life, and in the end will die. Does a dog understand death? It may know near the end that it is going to die, or that its owner died. But there is no actual knowledge of death and what it means in regards to the gospel, God, judgment, the afterlife, and so forth. Hence there is no death for a dog. It is my opinion that it is the same concept with man. Until Adam, there was no knowledge of death in relation to God. It wasn't until Adam brought about the knowledge of God, good vs. evil, agency and accountability, that man truly understood the repercussions of an earthly life and post earth life. Because there was no prior knowledge, there was no accountability. And so when a man would die, he would be physically dead, but not understand that the journey is far from complete. Without that understanding, there is no true death. For me, Godly knowledge is the key for understanding death. And hence, there was no death before the fall, because that is when Godly knowledge was bestowed upon Adam and Eve and was introduced into this world. 3
thesometimesaint Posted July 13, 2017 Posted July 13, 2017 On 7/11/2017 at 0:01 PM, Doctrine 612 said: Dinosaurs as were alive with humans Dinosaurs and humans were never contemporaneous. They died out some 65 million years ago. Homo Sapiens Sapiens(us) are at best some 250,000 years old.
JLHPROF Posted July 13, 2017 Posted July 13, 2017 19 hours ago, filovirus said: Ok, I know I'm late to the party here, but here is my take on "No death before the fall". I do believe their was physical death. People and animals would live and die, just like they do now. I don't. The very definition of "the fall" precludes this. Now, if we want to speculatively redefine the fall we can come up with all kinds of options.
Doctrine 612 Posted July 14, 2017 Posted July 14, 2017 9 hours ago, thesometimesaint said: Dinosaurs and humans were never contemporaneous. They died out some 65 million years ago. Homo Sapiens Sapiens(us) are at best some 250,000 years old.
thesometimesaint Posted July 14, 2017 Posted July 14, 2017 Really, is that the best you can do? A well known hoax. SEE http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/paluxy.html SEE https://timpanogos.wordpress.com/2008/08/05/fred-flintstone-waded-here-hoaxsters-ready-to-teach-creationism-to-texas-kids/
Flyonthewall Posted July 14, 2017 Posted July 14, 2017 My thought on "No death before the fall" is that it is a point of reference. This rock may have had one or more previous uses, but after it was created or re-organized or flipped for our use, there was no death until after the fall. The Biblical narration only concerns itself from the time it was prepared for the use of man forward and does not take into consideration anything that happened before. Who knows, perhaps each one of the extinction events in the past was an ending for the current use and set the stage for the next use. 3
SamuelTheLamanite Posted August 20, 2017 Posted August 20, 2017 On 5/24/2017 at 10:59 PM, Ouagadougou said: The LDS church states that: "Latter-day revelation teaches that there was no death on this earth before the Fall of Adam. Indeed, death entered the world as a direct result of the Fall (2 Ne. 2:22; Moses 6:48)." https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bd/death.html?lang=eng&letter=D So, Adam and Eve lived in Missouri; the fall occurred ~ 4,000 B.C.; and before that time there was no death on Earth? IMO, this is absolutely ridiculous to believe that death only occurred after the fall. For example, scientific evidence shows that humans and animals died well before 4,000 B.C. "Archaeologists say they have unearthed the earliest evidence of warfare between hunter-gatherers to be scientifically dated, at a remote site in northern Kenya. The 10,000-year-old remains of 27 people found west of Lake Turkana show that they met violent deaths." http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-35370374 I believe in the Omphalos hypothesis. God changed our world to eliminate physical evidences. God can't compel us to believe, we need faith. I know some say the Omphalos hypothesis requires a deceptive God, but I don't see it as deception, I see it as a test of faith, just like God tested Abraham.
SamuelTheLamanite Posted August 20, 2017 Posted August 20, 2017 On 5/24/2017 at 11:19 PM, Rivers said: Maybe there was a period of time when there was no death on the earth preceding the fall. And that this period of no death was preceded by a time in which there was death. My theory is that there was death on the earth during the long six-period creation process and was transformed into a paradisiacal state when completed. It doesn't really matter what happened before the six-period creation process. Like you said the Earth was transformed to a paradisaical state, but then it was transformed again to a Fallen state. God had to remove the evidence from the paradisaical state to allow faith in our last days.
longview Posted August 21, 2017 Posted August 21, 2017 On 7/13/2017 at 11:38 AM, thesometimesaint said: Dinosaurs and humans were never contemporaneous. They died out some 65 million years ago. Homo Sapiens Sapiens(us) are at best some 250,000 years old. I saw in the news that some scientist are rethinking the asteroid hypothesis. That dinosaurs declined gradually and not catastrophically. Even much longer than 65 million years ago.
thesometimesaint Posted August 21, 2017 Posted August 21, 2017 5 hours ago, longview said: I saw in the news that some scientist are rethinking the asteroid hypothesis. That dinosaurs declined gradually and not catastrophically. Even much longer than 65 million years ago. Scientist are constantly rethinking things. That is why they are scientists. The evidence we see so far is that a giant meteor hit the earth some 65 million years ago killing off the dinosaurs. SEE http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/extinction/dinosaurs/asteroid.html
thesometimesaint Posted August 21, 2017 Posted August 21, 2017 10 hours ago, SamuelTheLamanite said: It doesn't really matter what happened before the six-period creation process. Like you said the Earth was transformed to a paradisaical state, but then it was transformed again to a Fallen state. God had to remove the evidence from the paradisaical state to allow faith in our last days. Impossible to prove by any known science. Surely, God could have caused birds to fly with their bones made of solid gold, with their veins full of quicksilver, with their flesh heavier than lead, and with their wings exceedingly small. He did not, and that ought to show something. It is only in order to shield your ignorance that you put the Lord at every turn to the refuge of a miracle. Galileo Galilei
SamuelTheLamanite Posted August 21, 2017 Posted August 21, 2017 12 hours ago, thesometimesaint said: Impossible to prove by any known science. Surely, God could have caused birds to fly with their bones made of solid gold, with their veins full of quicksilver, with their flesh heavier than lead, and with their wings exceedingly small. He did not, and that ought to show something. It is only in order to shield your ignorance that you put the Lord at every turn to the refuge of a miracle. Galileo Galilei Exactly! Science cannot prove the work of God. In the scriptures God reveals that there was no death before the fall, modern prophets confirm it. Most Latter day saints understand the scripture that way, God is not a God of confusion. If there really was millions of years of Evolution, God wouldn't inspire his prophets to teach no death before the fall doctrine.
cinepro Posted August 21, 2017 Posted August 21, 2017 On 8/20/2017 at 3:28 PM, SamuelTheLamanite said: God can't compel us to believe, we need faith. You seem to be claiming that humans can be "compelled" to believe something based on there being evidence for it. Do you really think that's the case?
SamuelTheLamanite Posted August 22, 2017 Posted August 22, 2017 58 minutes ago, cinepro said: You seem to be claiming that humans can be "compelled" to believe something based on there being evidence for it. Do you really think that's the case? If we had scientific evidence for the Fall event 6,000 years ago there wouldn't be any need for faith in Genesis, we would all know. Same for the Book of Mormon, God had to hide the evidence so we can apply Moroni's promise.
The Nehor Posted August 22, 2017 Posted August 22, 2017 4 minutes ago, SamuelTheLamanite said: If we had scientific evidence for the Fall event 6,000 years ago there wouldn't be any need for faith in Genesis, we would all know. Same for the Book of Mormon, God had to hide the evidence so we can apply Moroni's promise. Cinepro is right. Humans are quite capable of believing things for which there is no evidence and disbelieving things for which there is conclusive evidence. I do believe God is withholding proof for now. If the time comes that God provides conclusive proof for the Book of Mormon or the Bible then I believe the end of the world will also be imminent. Faith and knowledge are not incompatible. I can know the truth of gospel principle and commandments and still disobey. Through his vision Joseph Smith knew God and the Son were real. He still needed faith. This applies in the secular world too. Someone who wants to lose weight or study a subject or deal with an anger problem can conclusively know how to do it but without faith (and the work faith requires) nothing changes. 1
SamuelTheLamanite Posted August 22, 2017 Posted August 22, 2017 10 minutes ago, The Nehor said: Cinepro is right. Humans are quite capable of believing things for which there is no evidence and disbelieving things for which there is conclusive evidence. I do believe God is withholding proof for now. If the time comes that God provides conclusive proof for the Book of Mormon or the Bible then I believe the end of the world will also be imminent. Faith and knowledge are not incompatible. I can know the truth of gospel principle and commandments and still disobey. Through his vision Joseph Smith knew God and the Son were real. He still needed faith. This applies in the secular world too. Someone who wants to lose weight or study a subject or deal with an anger problem can conclusively know how to do it but without faith (and the work faith requires) nothing changes. Are you saying it was not necessary for God to hide the evidence? We believe Faith is "things which are hoped for and not seen" Ether 12:6 . If it is not for faith, then please explain why God hides the evidence for the Fall, Book of Mormon?
The Nehor Posted August 22, 2017 Posted August 22, 2017 50 minutes ago, SamuelTheLamanite said: Are you saying it was not necessary for God to hide the evidence? We believe Faith is "things which are hoped for and not seen" Ether 12:6 . If it is not for faith, then please explain why God hides the evidence for the Fall, Book of Mormon? I have no idea whether God did hide evidence of anything. The idea that knowledge removes the need for faith includes the corllary that many of the prophets and apostles are faithless. Now, could God prove a lot of stuff? Sure. I suspect the reason he has not is not that evidence guarantees or replaces faith but that evidence would further damn those who reject it and God withholds that light until we either prove ourselves or until he decides the time has come to leave us without excuse. I like the former but not the latter.
ksfisher Posted August 22, 2017 Posted August 22, 2017 1 hour ago, SamuelTheLamanite said: If it is not for faith, then please explain why God hides the evidence for the Fall, Book of Mormon? What evidence would there be for the Fall? Has God hidden evidence for the Book of Mormon or have we just mot found it? Or maybe we've found it but we just don't know what we've looking at.
thesometimesaint Posted August 22, 2017 Posted August 22, 2017 12 hours ago, SamuelTheLamanite said: Exactly! Science cannot prove the work of God. In the scriptures God reveals that there was no death before the fall, modern prophets confirm it. Most Latter day saints understand the scripture that way, God is not a God of confusion. If there really was millions of years of Evolution, God wouldn't inspire his prophets to teach no death before the fall doctrine. It can disprove what some claim God did. IE; Putting a stick in the ground doesn't change the genetic of farm animals. The Scriptures don't say that there was no death before the fall. SEE https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Mormonism_and_science/Death_before_the_Fall The earth is about 4.5 Billion years old. The old known life is from about 4 Billion years ago. Who said God inspired them to make incorrect statements? Even Joseph Smith believed the earth was 2.5 Billion years old. Though how he arrived at that number is highly suspect.
thesometimesaint Posted August 22, 2017 Posted August 22, 2017 (edited) 9 hours ago, SamuelTheLamanite said: Are you saying it was not necessary for God to hide the evidence? We believe Faith is "things which are hoped for and not seen" Ether 12:6 . If it is not for faith, then please explain why God hides the evidence for the Fall, Book of Mormon? My God doesn't trick his children. And Science is the evidence of things seen. Maybe the Fall isn't what you believe it is. The whole story can be dismissed as a series of supernatural miracles. There is no way to contradict such an argument. However, one must wonder about a God who reportedly does one thing and then arranges every bit of evidence to make it look like something else happened. It's entirely possible that a creation occurred 6000 years ago or even last Thursday, and that God subsequently erased all the evidence, including our memories of it. But even if such stories are true, what's the point? Shamelessly modified from Talk Origins. Edited August 22, 2017 by thesometimesaint
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