No Death Before the Fall?

[clarkgoble]

14 hours ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

If we had scientific evidence for the Fall event 6,000 years ago there wouldn't be any need for faith in Genesis, we would all know.  

Same for the Book of Mormon, God had to hide the evidence so we can apply Moroni's promise. 

Note that the problem with young earth creationism or its variants like no death before the fall isn't God hiding evidence, but the abundant evidence that it didn't happen to way people accepting those doctrines believe. There are also problems with their exegesis of scripture IMO. 

This is different from taking back the urim & thummim and plates which is simply removing proof for something.

[cinepro]

3 hours ago, clarkgoble said:

Note that the problem with young earth creationism or its variants like no death before the fall isn't God hiding evidence, but the abundant evidence that it didn't happen to way people accepting those doctrines believe. There are also problems with their exegesis of scripture IMO. 

This is different from taking back the urim & thummim and plates which is simply removing proof for something.

The urim & thummim would be evidence, not proof. 

After all, we still have the seer stone, but that's not proof of the divine origin of The Book of Mormon.

[clarkgoble]

50 minutes ago, cinepro said:

The urim & thummim would be evidence, not proof. 

After all, we still have the seer stone, but that's not proof of the divine origin of The Book of Mormon.

If the Urim & Thummim and the Gold Plates were found with (as Mormons believe) a decipherable text that loosely lined up with what Joseph translated then that'd be extremely strong evidence. To such an extent that I think we could call it proof as the word is normally used. (i.e. ignoring the usage that proof is only for logic/math)

Quote

After all, we still have the seer stone, but that's not proof of the divine origin of The Book of Mormon.

Yes, but I was assuming both together.

[SamuelTheLamanite]

5 hours ago, clarkgoble said:

Note that the problem with young earth creationism or its variants like no death before the fall isn't God hiding evidence, but the abundant evidence that it didn't happen to way people accepting those doctrines believe. There are also problems with their exegesis of scripture IMO. 

This is different from taking back the urim & thummim and plates which is simply removing proof for something.

Yes, I believe God change the world to make it appear old, he did it so we can exercise our faith.  

[SamuelTheLamanite]

10 hours ago, thesometimesaint said:

My God doesn't trick his children. And Science is the evidence of things seen.

In the story of Abraham God told him to sacrifice his son. We know God was simply testing Abraham, but at the moment Abraham willing to sacrifice his son. 

[Calm]

1 minute ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

In the story of Abraham God told him to sacrifice his son. We know God was simply testing Abraham, but at the moment Abraham willing to sacrifice his son. 

In essence though, you are saying not only did God cover his tracks, but he laid a false trail as well.  That is more than just not sharing relevant information.

[SamuelTheLamanite]

19 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I suspect the reason he has not is not that evidence guarantees or replaces faith but that evidence would further damn those who reject it 

that is an interesting perspective. That explains why there is no evidence for creation, fall, book of mormon, and many other things. I like the idea that God had to hide the evidence to protect the unbelievers.  

[SamuelTheLamanite]

17 minutes ago, Calm said:

In essence though, you are saying not only did God cover his tracks, but he laid a false trail as well.  That is more than just not sharing relevant information.

Yes. Did God lie when he told Abraham to sacrifice his son? I don't think so. A test of faith is not a lie.   

[clarkgoble]

28 minutes ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

Yes, I believe God change the world to make it appear old, he did it so we can exercise our faith.  

How does that make us exercise our faith? My faith in God is pretty unrelated to the age of the earth. There's no scripture even suggesting the age of the earth is something we need to believe. This doesn't make much sense.

I have no trouble with tests of faith. But if you're going to say we ought believe the earth is effectively 7000 years as a test of faith shouldn't God say that somewhere? The danger of course is people creating a test of faith out of whole cloth just so they don't have to stop believing what they already believed.

Seems to me a better test of faith is whether you're an effective home teacher. But that's me.

Edited August 22, 2017 by clarkgoble

[SamuelTheLamanite]

17 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

How does that make us exercise our faith? My faith in God is pretty unrelated to the age of the earth. There's no scripture even suggesting the age of the earth is something we need to believe. This doesn't make much sense.

I have no trouble with tests of faith. But if you're going to say we ought believe the earth is effectively 7000 years as a test of faith shouldn't God say that somewhere? The danger of course is people creating a test of faith out of whole cloth just so they don't have to stop believing what they already believed.

Seems to me a better test of faith is whether you're an effective home teacher. But that's me.

A Mormon scholar argues that our world "must appear" godless so we can choose between "faith or doubt" page 161. I don't agree with his Theistic Evolution stuff, but what he says makes sense. 

 https://www.mormoninterpreter.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/smith-v6-2013-pp105-163-PDF.pdf 

A young earth is inconsistent with Evolutionary models.   I like what the gentlemen above said, "Now, could God prove a lot of stuff? Sure. I suspect the reason he has not is not that evidence guarantees or replaces faith but that evidence would further damn those who reject it"   

Edited August 22, 2017 by SamuelTheLamanite

[clarkgoble]

16 minutes ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

A Mormon scholar argues that our world "must appear" godless so we can choose between "faith or doubt" page 161. I don't agree with his Theistic Evolution stuff, but what he says makes sense. 

Again, I don't quite understand this. God could make the world the way I think he made the world and there's no problem. Why make it in seven days and then hide it. That's what doesn't make any sense. Saying the world has to seven thousand years and then covered up to allow faith presupposes there's a good reason to make a young earth rather than an old earth. Indeed I'd say a better trial of faith would be God making a world that is exactly as it seems and we have to find God within it.

[SamuelTheLamanite]

8 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

Again, I don't quite understand this. God could make the world the way I think he made the world and there's no problem. Why make it in seven days and then hide it. That's what doesn't make any sense. 

Because science wouldn't explain a young Earth. Evolution and natural processes couldn't possibly work in a young earth, we wouldn't need much faith, the existence of god would be obvious. 

[Calm]

No, it wouldn't.  If the earth is old, it would appear as it does, yet few think God is obvious.

[thesometimesaint]

1 hour ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

In the story of Abraham God told him to sacrifice his son. We know God was simply testing Abraham, but at the moment Abraham willing to sacrifice his son. 

Was he? Or assuming Abraham actually existed, and that his God actually exists, did Abraham just believe his God told him to do it? BTW  I have no problem with Abraham or God just what some much later mortals claim they did. Tests aren't normally tricks. Setting up a false premise, masking errors as facts, then expecting correct answers is something the Devil does.

[SamuelTheLamanite]

1 minute ago, Calm said:

No, it wouldn't.  If the earth is old, it would appear as it does, yet few think God is obvious.

Mormon prophets and the scriptures teach there was no death before the Fall, so that means the Earth is probably not that old. 

3 minutes ago, Calm said:

yet few think God is obvious.

Exactly! If our Earth is young it would make sense for God to hide the evidence. 

[Calm]

How would the world look differently if it was old, in your view, Sam?

[SamuelTheLamanite]

3 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

 Tests aren't normally tricks. Setting up a false premise, masking errors as facts, then expecting correct answers is something the Devil does.

God told Abraham to scarifies his son, in the end it was not necessary, it was just a test. 

[SamuelTheLamanite]

Just now, Calm said:

How would the world look differently if it was old, in your view, Sam?

Like it looks right now, our planet appears to be old, but our prophets and scriptures teach there was no death before the Fall of Adam.  I believe the scriptures.  

[CV75]

On 8/20/2017 at 6:28 PM, SamuelTheLamanite said:

I believe in the Omphalos hypothesis. God changed our world to eliminate physical evidences. God can't compel us to believe, we need faith.  

I know some say the Omphalos hypothesis requires a deceptive God, but I don't see it as deception, I see it as a test of faith, just like God tested Abraham. 

I had a very faithful Catholic friend who believed this. I indulged him a bit with a "sure, anything is possible" attitude. Now, giving it some thought some 10 years later, I would ask, "What purpose would this serve for those who lived before knowing our kind of geological and life science, or attaching any meaning at all to the age of the earth?"

[thesometimesaint]

It really isn't an either or proposition. The vast majority of Christians, including the LDS, have no problem with science or God. BYU has a well respected Paleontology Museum and teaches evolution at its campuses. There has been only on perfect(Omniscient)  person and we ain't him.

[SamuelTheLamanite]

2 hours ago, CV75 said:

I had a very faithful Catholic friend who believed this. I indulged him a bit with a "sure, anything is possible" attitude. Now, giving it some thought some 10 years later, I would ask, "What purpose would this serve for those who lived before knowing our kind of geological and life science, or attaching any meaning at all to the age of the earth?"

Times change, we are in the last days. 

[SamuelTheLamanite]

1 hour ago, thesometimesaint said:

It really isn't an either or proposition. The vast majority of Christians, including the LDS, have no problem with science or God. BYU has a well respected Paleontology Museum and teaches evolution at its campuses. There has been only on perfect(Omniscient)  person and we ain't him.

I don't think the vast majority of LDS believe in millions of years of death and evolution.  The scriptures don't teach evolution, they teach the opposite.  

[Atheist Mormon]

On 5/25/2017 at 1:06 AM, The Nehor said:

I disagree with many things in the Bible Dictionary and the LDS Inquisition has so far not brought charges of heresy against me.

Sorry but I really don't find you a 100% trustworthy guy. How can i know you don't keep a cold six pack in your fridge? You are the type

[The Nehor]

1 minute ago, Atheist Mormon said:

Sorry but I really don't find you a 100% trustworthy guy. How can i know you don't keep a cold six pack in your fridge? You are the type

Does a gatorade six-pack count? I love one after a run and usually have them. Does this mean I am going to hell?  

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

I don't think the vast majority of LDS believe in millions of years of death and evolution.  The scriptures don't teach evolution, they teach the opposite.  

Devolution?

And, anecdotally, I suspect this world has been around for millions of years and lots of creatures died throughout that time.

You see when Earth left Kolob's orbit and went to FTL speed to reach Sol a Time Acceleration field was placed around it so it was one day to God but a variable amount of time on Earth.