Mormons and the 2nd Admendment, The Bill of Rights

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I spent 31 years in Government Service, 8 years in the Military, and 23 in Law Enforcement. I also grew up in the South where guns of all kinds are just a part of everyday life. While in High School, those who hunted used to have at least two rifles in the back window of their trucks on gun racks. During breaks or lunch, if someone had a new gun, both students and teachers would gather around those trucks, checking out the hardware. A practice now banned by law, and common sense, it today's world. 

When my son lived in Utah, first in Vernal and then in Ogden, things were a little different. The three times I visited Vernal, "everybody" hunted, and first thing I would be asked was to come along...which I eagerly did, more as a bonding activity than to hunt. I lost the desire to hunt for the sake of sport. My son's father-in-law has a house that faces the road, the back yard in just miles of sand. He keeps a tripod by the door so that he can kill animals that prey on and attack (and eat) his many farm animals. Then when my son lived in Ogden, I got a chance to visit the "John Moses Browning Museam" (BTW, if you love guns and history...GO!). Then my son wants me to go shopping at a store up I15, called "Smith's" (if memory serves) where they sell "EVERYTHING", but other than the Army, I never saw so many weapons under one roof in my life. 

Enough with the backdrop...

I know that different regions of the Country view firearms differently, especially the more urban areas of the Country, than do rule areas. It seems that within the Church, or those with whom I see in Church and around town that ideas are changing. Because of the many decades of carrying a weapon, it is just second nature. I have a conceal carry permit, but I open carry anyway (90% of the time). I never carry in any place that has a sign asking patrons not to, and would not dream of doing so at Church. Although a couple of times while in Law Enforcement, I would forget when picking up the kids from mutual. Recently our Ward has changed boundaries twice, and some who don't know me very well are visibly taken-a-back when they see my wife and I in restaurants or grocery stores. I have even been approached by husbands who have said they were surprised to see me wearing a gun in public. Both times I was afraid that I had forgotten on a weeknight and walked into Church. 

Is the opinions concerning guns changing among members of the Church?

Is this change due to current climate of gun violence? 

Also, is the 2nd Amendment, something that would fall under the umbrella of "honoring and sustaining the law"? 

P.S. I don't not carry to protect myself, but to protect my family and the public, as it a hard thing to undue all those years of training to "protect and serve". 

Also, this thread is about the law, NOT politics, so don't make it so, please.  

[carbon dioxide]

2 hours ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

Is the opinions concerning guns changing among members of the Church?

Is this change due to current climate of gun violence? 

Also, is the 2nd Amendment, something that would fall under the umbrella of "honoring and sustaining the law"? 

P.S. I don't not carry to protect myself, but to protect my family and the public, as it a hard thing to undue all those years of training to "protect and serve".

Who knows.  The Church does not do any studies on the issue. I would imagine that the views reflect political views.  Democrat members are for more gun control and Republicans are for less.  The 2nd Amendment is the law. Its part of the Bill of Rights.

 

 

[rockpond]

2 hours ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

I spent 31 years in Government Service, 8 years in the Military, and 23 in Law Enforcement. I also grew up in the South where guns of all kinds are just a part of everyday life. While in High School, those who hunted used to have at least two rifles in the back window of their trucks on gun racks. During breaks or lunch, if someone had a new gun, both students and teachers would gather around those trucks, checking out the hardware. A practice now banned by law, and common sense, it today's world. 

When my son lived in Utah, first in Vernal and then in Ogden, things were a little different. The three times I visited Vernal, "everybody" hunted, and first thing I would be asked was to come along...which I eagerly did, more as a bonding activity than to hunt. I lost the desire to hunt for the sake of sport. My son's father-in-law has a house that faces the road, the back yard in just miles of sand. He keeps a tripod by the door so that he can kill animals that prey on and attack (and eat) his many farm animals. Then when my son lived in Ogden, I got a chance to visit the "John Moses Browning Museam" (BTW, if you love guns and history...GO!). Then my son wants me to go shopping at a store up I15, called "Smith's" (if memory serves) where they sell "EVERYTHING", but other than the Army, I never saw so many weapons under one roof in my life. 

Enough with the backdrop...

I know that different regions of the Country view firearms differently, especially the more urban areas of the Country, than do rule areas. It seems that within the Church, or those with whom I see in Church and around town that ideas are changing. Because of the many decades of carrying a weapon, it is just second nature. I have a conceal carry permit, but I open carry anyway (90% of the time). I never carry in any place that has a sign asking patrons not to, and would not dream of doing so at Church. Although a couple of times while in Law Enforcement, I would forget when picking up the kids from mutual. Recently our Ward has changed boundaries twice, and some who don't know me very well are visibly taken-a-back when they see my wife and I in restaurants or grocery stores. I have even been approached by husbands who have said they were surprised to see me wearing a gun in public. Both times I was afraid that I had forgotten on a weeknight and walked into Church. 

Is the opinions concerning guns changing among members of the Church?

Is this change due to current climate of gun violence? 

Also, is the 2nd Amendment, something that would fall under the umbrella of "honoring and sustaining the law"? 

P.S. I don't not carry to protect myself, but to protect my family and the public, as it a hard thing to undue all those years of training to "protect and serve". 

Also, this thread is about the law, NOT politics, so don't make it so, please.  

I haven't noticed any significant change of opinion among members regarding guns.  But, I live in a fairly conservative area and my family members are all strong supporters of the 2nd amendment.

I am no longer sure how the institutional church or church membership interpret "honoring and sustaining the law".  So I can't comment here either.

What I will say is that I would encourage you to conceal carry at church.  Not long ago in my city there was a shooter who entered a church (not LDS) on Sunday and started shooting.

[Calm]

"Firearms

Churches are dedicated for the worship of God and as havens from the cares and concerns of the world. The carrying of lethal weapons, concealed or otherwise, within their walls is inappropriate except as required by officers of the law."

https://www.lds.org/handbook/handbook-2-administering-the-church/selected-church-policies/21.2?lang=eng&_r=1#21.2.4

[Bob Crockett]

9 hours ago, rockpond said:

my family members are all strong supporters of the 2nd amendment.

 

Abhorrent special legislation to favor a specific industry, or at least as Congress has interpreted it and the Courts have construed it. 

 

[Gray]

13 hours ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

I spent 31 years in Government Service, 8 years in the Military, and 23 in Law Enforcement. I also grew up in the South where guns of all kinds are just a part of everyday life. While in High School, those who hunted used to have at least two rifles in the back window of their trucks on gun racks. During breaks or lunch, if someone had a new gun, both students and teachers would gather around those trucks, checking out the hardware. A practice now banned by law, and common sense, it today's world. 

When my son lived in Utah, first in Vernal and then in Ogden, things were a little different. The three times I visited Vernal, "everybody" hunted, and first thing I would be asked was to come along...which I eagerly did, more as a bonding activity than to hunt. I lost the desire to hunt for the sake of sport. My son's father-in-law has a house that faces the road, the back yard in just miles of sand. He keeps a tripod by the door so that he can kill animals that prey on and attack (and eat) his many farm animals. Then when my son lived in Ogden, I got a chance to visit the "John Moses Browning Museam" (BTW, if you love guns and history...GO!). Then my son wants me to go shopping at a store up I15, called "Smith's" (if memory serves) where they sell "EVERYTHING", but other than the Army, I never saw so many weapons under one roof in my life. 

Enough with the backdrop...

I know that different regions of the Country view firearms differently, especially the more urban areas of the Country, than do rule areas. It seems that within the Church, or those with whom I see in Church and around town that ideas are changing. Because of the many decades of carrying a weapon, it is just second nature. I have a conceal carry permit, but I open carry anyway (90% of the time). I never carry in any place that has a sign asking patrons not to, and would not dream of doing so at Church. Although a couple of times while in Law Enforcement, I would forget when picking up the kids from mutual. Recently our Ward has changed boundaries twice, and some who don't know me very well are visibly taken-a-back when they see my wife and I in restaurants or grocery stores. I have even been approached by husbands who have said they were surprised to see me wearing a gun in public. Both times I was afraid that I had forgotten on a weeknight and walked into Church. 

Is the opinions concerning guns changing among members of the Church?

Is this change due to current climate of gun violence? 

Also, is the 2nd Amendment, something that would fall under the umbrella of "honoring and sustaining the law"? 

P.S. I don't not carry to protect myself, but to protect my family and the public, as it a hard thing to undue all those years of training to "protect and serve". 

Also, this thread is about the law, NOT politics, so don't make it so, please.  

Honestly I can't recall the subject ever coming up in a church meeting. I live in an urban area, though. I think most of my ward members don't have guns. But, I grew up in rural areas, and I don't remember the topic coming up then either. 

[stemelbow]

13 hours ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

I spent 31 years in Government Service, 8 years in the Military, and 23 in Law Enforcement. I also grew up in the South where guns of all kinds are just a part of everyday life. While in High School, those who hunted used to have at least two rifles in the back window of their trucks on gun racks. During breaks or lunch, if someone had a new gun, both students and teachers would gather around those trucks, checking out the hardware. A practice now banned by law, and common sense, it today's world. 

When my son lived in Utah, first in Vernal and then in Ogden, things were a little different. The three times I visited Vernal, "everybody" hunted, and first thing I would be asked was to come along...which I eagerly did, more as a bonding activity than to hunt. I lost the desire to hunt for the sake of sport. My son's father-in-law has a house that faces the road, the back yard in just miles of sand. He keeps a tripod by the door so that he can kill animals that prey on and attack (and eat) his many farm animals. Then when my son lived in Ogden, I got a chance to visit the "John Moses Browning Museam" (BTW, if you love guns and history...GO!). Then my son wants me to go shopping at a store up I15, called "Smith's" (if memory serves) where they sell "EVERYTHING", but other than the Army, I never saw so many weapons under one roof in my life. 

I'm from Ogden.  Smith and Edwards is the store. 

13 hours ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

Enough with the backdrop...

I know that different regions of the Country view firearms differently, especially the more urban areas of the Country, than do rule areas. It seems that within the Church, or those with whom I see in Church and around town that ideas are changing. Because of the many decades of carrying a weapon, it is just second nature. I have a conceal carry permit, but I open carry anyway (90% of the time). I never carry in any place that has a sign asking patrons not to, and would not dream of doing so at Church. Although a couple of times while in Law Enforcement, I would forget when picking up the kids from mutual. Recently our Ward has changed boundaries twice, and some who don't know me very well are visibly taken-a-back when they see my wife and I in restaurants or grocery stores. I have even been approached by husbands who have said they were surprised to see me wearing a gun in public. Both times I was afraid that I had forgotten on a weeknight and walked into Church. 

Is the opinions concerning guns changing among members of the Church?

Is this change due to current climate of gun violence? 

Also, is the 2nd Amendment, something that would fall under the umbrella of "honoring and sustaining the law"? 

P.S. I don't not carry to protect myself, but to protect my family and the public, as it a hard thing to undue all those years of training to "protect and serve". 

Also, this thread is about the law, NOT politics, so don't make it so, please.  

I don't know about changing attitudes about guns in the Church.  I'd guess so.  My dad had guns, but didn't hunt or didn't even use them.  he just did it seems, because men did.  When my son turned 12, my father-in-law made sure he had a gun.  he bought him a 22.  in a couple of years it was gone out of the house.  We kept it to appease the old man.  So things have certainly changed in our family, through the generation.  Then again, my brother was in the military, was special forces and owns guns.  My other brother has a hand gun.  I honestly don't know why he bought it, because as far as I know he doesn't use it. 

[Tacenda]

Smith and Edwards...great store, went there with my dad!

In my circles there are several couples that have gotten gun permits and go on date nights shooting targets. So there are alot of gun supporters out there.

I know schools are sensitive to any type of gun, even the pellet ones. And if a student is caught with one they're suspended or disciplined for anything resembling guns. So a far cry from the old days. But they have good reasons.

My husband wants to get a gun permit to carry, but I'm not comfortable with it because I'm afraid he doesn't have enough experience with it.

There is a restaurant in Ogden that have all the waiters carrying guns and wearings kilts in strong support of the 2nd ammendment. Maybe Stemelbow has been there. http://www.sltrib.com/news/3683580-155/utah-restaurants-kilt-clad-servers-open-carry-guns

[rockpond]

4 hours ago, Calm said:

"Firearms

Churches are dedicated for the worship of God and as havens from the cares and concerns of the world. The carrying of lethal weapons, concealed or otherwise, within their walls is inappropriate except as required by officers of the law."

https://www.lds.org/handbook/handbook-2-administering-the-church/selected-church-policies/21.2?lang=eng&_r=1#21.2.4

Thanks... I didn't realize that there was a policy on this.

I'm not sure I agree with it.  As I mentioned above, since I live in a city where a shooter intentionally targeted a church - I am not in favor of a policy that makes sure our meetinghouses can be easy targets.  I also happen to have first hand knowledge that this policy is routinely ignored (or people are just ignorant of it, as I was).

[The Nehor]

The founders would be very confused by the modern interpretation of the Second Amendment.

[clarkgoble]

17 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

The founders would be very confused by the modern interpretation of the Second Amendment.

That could be taken two very different ways depending upon what you you think the founders thought about it.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

My husband wants to get a gun permit to carry, but I'm not comfortable with it because I'm afraid he doesn't have enough experience with it.

My advice is this, anyone who wants to get a carry permit needs to look inward and know if they could use it. Many people are killed or injured with their own guns, when they hesitate in a crisis. Also absolutely no one should carry until they fired at least 500 rounds in target practice. 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, stemelbow said:

 We kept it to appease the old man.

Ouch! 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, rockpond said:

Thanks... I didn't realize that there was a policy on this.

I'm not sure I agree with it.  As I mentioned above, since I live in a city where a shooter intentionally targeted a church - I am not in favor of a policy that makes sure our meetinghouses can be easy targets.  I also happen to have first hand knowledge that this policy is routinely ignored (or people are just ignorant of it, as I was).

I think the fear is two fold, I would think the biggest concern is accidental discharge. Up until recently it was a violation of law here in Georgia to carry a weapon into a Church, but no longer. However, if the Church has a policy against it, they are the law within the walls of meeting houses. Even while still in law enforcement, I never carried useless I just forgot, but never on a Sunday. But, always in my car. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

The founders would be very confused by the modern interpretation of the Second Amendment.

I don't think so, keep in mind it was written in a day when everyone, everywhere had guns, or we would still be under British rule. Also, the courts have never ruled otherwise in the thousands of cases brought before them. 

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Bob Crockett said:

Abhorrent special legislation to favor a specific industry, or at least as Congress has interpreted it and the Courts have construed it. 

 

Can you expand on the use of the word "abhorrent"? 

[thesometimesaint]

16 hours ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

I spent 31 years in Government Service, 8 years in the Military, and 23 in Law Enforcement. I also grew up in the South where guns of all kinds are just a part of everyday life. While in High School, those who hunted used to have at least two rifles in the back window of their trucks on gun racks. During breaks or lunch, if someone had a new gun, both students and teachers would gather around those trucks, checking out the hardware. A practice now banned by law, and common sense, it today's world. 

When my son lived in Utah, first in Vernal and then in Ogden, things were a little different. The three times I visited Vernal, "everybody" hunted, and first thing I would be asked was to come along...which I eagerly did, more as a bonding activity than to hunt. I lost the desire to hunt for the sake of sport. My son's father-in-law has a house that faces the road, the back yard in just miles of sand. He keeps a tripod by the door so that he can kill animals that prey on and attack (and eat) his many farm animals. Then when my son lived in Ogden, I got a chance to visit the "John Moses Browning Museam" (BTW, if you love guns and history...GO!). Then my son wants me to go shopping at a store up I15, called "Smith's" (if memory serves) where they sell "EVERYTHING", but other than the Army, I never saw so many weapons under one roof in my life. 

Enough with the backdrop...

I know that different regions of the Country view firearms differently, especially the more urban areas of the Country, than do rule areas. It seems that within the Church, or those with whom I see in Church and around town that ideas are changing. Because of the many decades of carrying a weapon, it is just second nature. I have a conceal carry permit, but I open carry anyway (90% of the time). I never carry in any place that has a sign asking patrons not to, and would not dream of doing so at Church. Although a couple of times while in Law Enforcement, I would forget when picking up the kids from mutual. Recently our Ward has changed boundaries twice, and some who don't know me very well are visibly taken-a-back when they see my wife and I in restaurants or grocery stores. I have even been approached by husbands who have said they were surprised to see me wearing a gun in public. Both times I was afraid that I had forgotten on a weeknight and walked into Church. 

Is the opinions concerning guns changing among members of the Church?

Is this change due to current climate of gun violence? 

Also, is the 2nd Amendment, something that would fall under the umbrella of "honoring and sustaining the law"? 

P.S. I don't not carry to protect myself, but to protect my family and the public, as it a hard thing to undue all those years of training to "protect and serve". 

Also, this thread is about the law, NOT politics, so don't make it so, please.  

The 2nd Amendment is only applicable in the US. As we in the US become more urban the necessity to hunt becomes less and less. If you want to own a gun and can legally possess them, take the necessary courses, and beyond scrupulously follow the rules. Be my guest. That being said with guns being a major cause of death in our country being openly armed in public isn't such a good idea.

[thesometimesaint]

17 minutes ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

I don't think so, keep in mind it was written in a day when everyone, everywhere had guns, or we would still be under British rule. Also, the courts have never ruled otherwise in the thousands of cases brought before them. 

George Washington had every right to be very concerned about a bunch of yahoo's with guns.

SEE Shay's Rebellion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shays'_Rebellion

SEE Whiskey Rebellion. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whiskey_Rebellion

Edited May 17, 2017 by thesometimesaint

[Bob Crockett]

11 minutes ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

Can you expand on the use of the word "abhorrent"? 

Bad; egregious, evil.  Congress chooses to protect one industry above all and it is this one.  

[Duncan]

Just now, thesometimesaint said:

The 2nd Amendment is only applicable in the US. As we in the US become more urban the necessity to hunt becomes less and less. If you want to own a gun and can legally possess them, take the necessary courses, and beyond scrupulously follow the rules. Be my guest. That being said with guns being a major cause of death in our country being openly armed in public isn't such a good idea.

boy, i'm glad the 'hunting for your own food' days are over, I don't know where tacos live

[thesometimesaint]

1 minute ago, Duncan said:

boy, i'm glad the 'hunting for your own food' days are over, I don't know where tacos live

The only hunting I do these days is at the  grocery stores, for the best bargains.

[The Nehor]

13 minutes ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

I don't think so, keep in mind it was written in a day when everyone, everywhere had guns, or we would still be under British rule. Also, the courts have never ruled otherwise in the thousands of cases brought before them. 

The purpose of the amendment was to ensure that people could have a weapon at home with which to fight off attackers (Indians, raiders, invaders) as an organized militia. Some today imagine they want to make sure gun-toting nuts can shoot law enforcement. Many of the founders supported laws limiting where you can carry firearms which is somehow now seen as Second Amendment protected for some reason.

 

1 hour ago, clarkgoble said:

That could be taken two very different ways depending upon what you you think the founders thought about it.

True.

[bluebell]

3 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Smith and Edwards...great store, went there with my dad!

The owner has died and the kids have taken over.  They are slowly ruining it.  

[thesometimesaint]

The Militia's in slave holding states of the time was primarily used to round up escaped slaves before they could become a threat.

SEE https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Militia_(United_States)

[SeekerB]

I don't know if attitudes are changing. I do know that when I worked in the Church Office Building complex for 10 years, not long ago, gun ownership by church employees was very common.