JAHS Posted May 9, 2017 Posted May 9, 2017 I have heard at funerals of church members who have died. "God must have needed them for more important work". Does God actually cause the death of someone because He needs them on the other side for missionary work or some other reason? Or do people just die for whatever reason and God uses them once they get there? 1
Duncan Posted May 9, 2017 Posted May 9, 2017 I'm dying right now from pneumonia and other related pleasantries of life, if he does i'll ask him and come back to haunt you and let you know 1
JAHS Posted May 9, 2017 Author Posted May 9, 2017 4 minutes ago, Duncan said: I'm dying right now from pneumonia and other related pleasantries of life, if he does i'll ask him and come back to haunt you and let you know No. I would rather you get better and find out later :-)
bluebell Posted May 9, 2017 Posted May 9, 2017 9 minutes ago, Duncan said: I'm dying right now from pneumonia and other related pleasantries of life, if he does i'll ask him and come back to haunt you and let you know You still have pneumonia!!?!
bluebell Posted May 9, 2017 Posted May 9, 2017 I think when people say that they mean that they believe God allowed the person to die instead of intervening. Not that God actually killed them. 2
JAHS Posted May 9, 2017 Author Posted May 9, 2017 Just now, bluebell said: I think when people say that they mean that they believe God allowed the person to die instead of intervening. Not that God actually killed them. That's the way I have always thought of it, but there are those who believe He takes them on purpose. I think they say that mostly to try and make some sense as to why the person has died so soon and unexpectedly. 1
bluebell Posted May 9, 2017 Posted May 9, 2017 3 minutes ago, JAHS said: That's the way I have always thought of it, but there are those who believe He takes them on purpose. I think they say that mostly to try and make some sense as to why the person has died so soon and unexpectedly. I agree. One of my best friends from my childhood just lost her husband. He was 40 and died in route to the hospital, from either some kind embolism or sudden and severe heart attack. He was not overweight and had no other health issues that i know of. He leaves behind four boys, the oldest on a mission. It's difficult to understand those kinds of deaths. I think a lot of people believe that the only reason someone like that would die is because God basically said "you're done, come home." 1
JLHPROF Posted May 9, 2017 Posted May 9, 2017 25 minutes ago, JAHS said: I have heard at funerals of church members who have died. "God must have needed them for more important work". Does God actually cause the death of someone because He needs them on the other side for missionary work or some other reason? Or do people just die for whatever reason and God uses them once they get there? D&C 122:9 Therefore, hold on thy way, and the priesthood shall remain with thee; for their bounds are set, they cannot pass. Thy days are known, and thy years shall not be numbered less; therefore, fear not what man can do, for God shall be with you forever and ever. But you are asking if God takes people home personally? I think he does when they are needed for a mission.
JAHS Posted May 9, 2017 Author Posted May 9, 2017 5 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: D&C 122:9 Therefore, hold on thy way, and the priesthood shall remain with thee; for their bounds are set, they cannot pass. Thy days are known, and thy years shall not be numbered less; therefore, fear not what man can do, for God shall be with you forever and ever. But you are asking if God takes people home personally? I think he does when they are needed for a mission. But aren't they needed for a mission here also? Aren't we needed on the other side for the same kind of mission as the one who died? How could a mission there be more important than a mission here? I think God being all knowing, knows when we will die, but I think He lets life take it's normal course and does not actually cause the death, although He may intervene in someone's death if it is not their time. I have not been able to find any specific doctrine on this subject, except for anecdotal experiences of some people and personal opinions. 1
strappinglad Posted May 9, 2017 Posted May 9, 2017 Contrary to the opinion of some here, there was an instance in scripture when God took A LOT of people home all at once. See the Flood. Hard to argue that He let all work out and didn't intervene. 1
Calm Posted May 9, 2017 Posted May 9, 2017 19 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: D&C 122:9 Therefore, hold on thy way, and the priesthood shall remain with thee; for their bounds are set, they cannot pass. Thy days are known, and thy years shall not be numbered less; therefore, fear not what man can do, for God shall be with you forever and ever. But you are asking if God takes people home personally? I think he does when they are needed for a mission. What mission would they be needed for that couldn't be filled by likely thousands of others already passed on? (serious question) 1
JLHPROF Posted May 9, 2017 Posted May 9, 2017 3 minutes ago, JAHS said: But aren't they needed for a mission here also? Aren't we needed on the other side for the same kind of mission as the one who died? How could a mission there be more important than a mission here? I think God being all knowing, knows when we will die, but I think He lets life take it's normal course and does not actually cause the death, although He may intervene in someone's death if it is not their time. I have not been able to find any specific doctrine on this subject, except for anecdotal experiences of some people and personal opinions. So the question isn't if God knows when someone will die, it's does he ever directly cause a death? I think we have to say yes. Scripture alone is full of examples of God personally causing deaths. Admittedly most are in natural disasters, but how about Acts 5: 1 But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,2 And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles’ feet.3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.6 And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him.7 And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in.8 And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much.9 Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out.10 Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband. Unless Peter was up to no good, I would think this was the Lord acting. But that is a punishment death, not a called home death. There must be a "called home" death in scripture or Church history, but it's not coming to me right now. 2
JAHS Posted May 9, 2017 Author Posted May 9, 2017 2 minutes ago, strappinglad said: Contrary to the opinion of some here, there was an instance in scripture when God took A LOT of people home all at once. See the Flood. Hard to argue that He let all work out and didn't intervene. Yes I thought of that too, including Moses and the Red sea and the plagues when the first born were killed, but those lives were taken for a different reason.
JLHPROF Posted May 9, 2017 Posted May 9, 2017 1 minute ago, Calm said: What mission would they be needed for that couldn't be filled by likely thousands of others already passed on? (serious question) I think that would depend on the person. Any conjecture would be pure speculation. But I will give one obvious example. What could Christ do on the other side that he couldn't do here as a mortal man? Or Joseph Smith - who else had the calling to stand at the head of this dispensation and direct the work? In his vision of the afterlife Elder Peter E. Johnson was told that a deceased person would receive their resurrection as soon as you could do more with the resurrected body than without it. (He was told Joseph and Hyrum were both resurrected - Elder Peter E. Johnson, “A Testimony,” The Relief Society Magazine 7, No. 1 (January 1920): 450-452. Available at http://www.archive.org/stream/reliefsocietymag07reli#page/n0/mode/2up.) To me this means that there are missions for specific people and types of bodies. What could Joseph do that would require a resurrected body that a previously resurrected prophet couldn't do in his place? I would conjecture that he had a specific calling and place where he presided. Nobody could fill Christ's role in the eternities. Nobody else could fill Joseph's role in the eternities. How far down the line does that principle go? 1
Duncan Posted May 9, 2017 Posted May 9, 2017 Just now, bluebell said: You still have pneumonia!!?! yuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuup! I am on plan L for defeating this thing. I was given two antibiotics and they killed most of it, I think and then I went last week and he did some tests and it's still there and now I have this piercing pain in my rib cage whenever I cough. Wait there's more. I have been throwing up like Niagara falls all day, I am dehydrated, weak and can't eat or hold down much. I am seeing the Dr. tomorrow and will tell him about the throwing up and I kind of hope he sends me to a Gastro-Entomologist to get rid of this mutant bug permanently!
strappinglad Posted May 10, 2017 Posted May 10, 2017 Well Duncan, cough, cough , I ,cough , hope you , cough, get better soon, cough, cough ,cough, spit , puke, cough....
bluebell Posted May 10, 2017 Posted May 10, 2017 10 minutes ago, Duncan said: yuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuup! I am on plan L for defeating this thing. I was given two antibiotics and they killed most of it, I think and then I went last week and he did some tests and it's still there and now I have this piercing pain in my rib cage whenever I cough. Wait there's more. I have been throwing up like Niagara falls all day, I am dehydrated, weak and can't eat or hold down much. I am seeing the Dr. tomorrow and will tell him about the throwing up and I kind of hope he sends me to a Gastro-Entomologist to get rid of this mutant bug permanently! Oh man! I'm sorry.
Pete Ahlstrom Posted May 10, 2017 Posted May 10, 2017 The OP is a really tough question. I have a friend who lost her husband a few years back. She has two little kids and life has been kinda tough on her. This is what she believes. Whether that's true is something I think is for the next life.
rpn Posted May 10, 2017 Posted May 10, 2017 (edited) Quote "God must have needed them for more important work". I think this happens very very rarely, if at all. And likely it is only when a person has fully fulfilled their earthly mission (like the City of Enoch). Of course giving life and ending life are the two powers that God has reserved only to Himself (which is why the process of doing both being interfered with by humans are such big sins). So He can end life. But He gives life so we can learn everything we need to learn, so our spirit is in full control over our bodies, and so we have a lifetime to get to that point. So I don't see Him taking life very often at all. And while I think that term sounds comfortable to some, it is ludicrous to think that He needs a particular father more than his three toddler children do, or a mother more than her special needs child, etc. So saying this does not provide any comfort to most of humanity. Edited May 10, 2017 by rpn 1
Duncan Posted May 10, 2017 Posted May 10, 2017 Just now, bluebell said: Oh man! I'm sorry. Thank you!!!!!!!
The Nehor Posted May 10, 2017 Posted May 10, 2017 Yes, but short of revelation we cannot say decisively when he did or did not intervene.
JAHS Posted May 10, 2017 Author Posted May 10, 2017 1 hour ago, JLHPROF said: So the question isn't if God knows when someone will die, it's does he ever directly cause a death? I think we have to say yes. Scripture alone is full of examples of God personally causing deaths. Admittedly most are in natural disasters, but how about Acts 5: 1 But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,2 And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles’ feet.3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.6 And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him.7 And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in.8 And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much.9 Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out.10 Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband. Unless Peter was up to no good, I would think this was the Lord acting. But that is a punishment death, not a called home death. There must be a "called home" death in scripture or Church history, but it's not coming to me right now. In a Sermon given by Joseph Smith, Jr., March 20, 1842, referring to a young child that had just died he said: "The Lord takes many away even in infancy that they may escape the envy of man, and the sorrows and evils of this present world--they were too lovely and too pure to live on earth. (The Words of Joseph Smith, pp. 106-109) This quote sort of hints at it and is a comfort to those who have lost children, but does the word "takes" mean that He caused their death or does it mean that He just did not intervene in their death because it was their time to go and did not need to remain on earth?
rongo Posted May 10, 2017 Posted May 10, 2017 We have scriptural accounts of God causing the death of someone (e.g., Nadab and Abihu, Uzzah, rebels during the exodus, etc.). I don't believe that every death and tragedy was "God's will" --- I believe that he allows some things in the fallen world to just happen as a part of the Fall. But, I also believe he intervenes to save lives and sometimes intervenes to take lives in order to further his overall plan for peoples and individuals. I know people whom I believe he took home as a mercy. One of these was a former ward member, a salt of the earth nice guy, who was married to an ogre. Really over-the-top abusive wife. He even had to lock himself in the bathroom as she tried to beat the door down while he was on the phone with me. He never woke up from routine gall bladder removal surgery just shy of his 50th birthday, and he was in very good health. I firmly believe that God took him to to get him out of that. He was eternally patient with her, and never would have divorced her, and I think it was a mercy to take him home by not letting him awaken from anesthesia. 3
thesometimesaint Posted May 10, 2017 Posted May 10, 2017 If the Old Testament is to be believed. Yes God does kill lots of people. 1
JAHS Posted May 10, 2017 Author Posted May 10, 2017 8 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said: If the Old Testament is to be believed. Yes God does kill lots of people. Yes I agree, but the intended question, as explained in the OP, is does he cause the death of people because he has a "more important work" for them to do on the other side? Is that doctrinal or just opinion?
Recommended Posts