Alan Posted May 10, 2017 Posted May 10, 2017 16 hours ago, JAHS said: I have heard at funerals of church members who have died. "God must have needed them for more important work". Does God actually cause the death of someone because He needs them on the other side for missionary work or some other reason? Or do people just die for whatever reason and God uses them once they get there? Not directly. But Nephi's experience with Laban comes pretty close. Nephi still had his agency of course, and could have refused the instruction to execute Laban, but it's a thin line.
thesometimesaint Posted May 10, 2017 Posted May 10, 2017 7 minutes ago, JAHS said: Yes I agree, but the intended question, as explained in the OP, is does he cause the death of people because he has a "more important work" for them to do on the other side? Is that doctrinal or just opinion? Maybe they had a more important work on the other side or not. I like to think that they finally heard and accepted the Gospel, but that is hard to reconcile with the New Testament. Just my opinion of certain doctrines.
Gray Posted May 10, 2017 Posted May 10, 2017 No, God doesn't intervene in the timing of anyone's death. 2
Kenngo1969 Posted May 10, 2017 Posted May 10, 2017 I don't understand the interplay between what God causes, what He allows, what He intervenes to prevent (or not), and so on. If God were to intervene in every circumstance we might wish Him to do so, however, I do believe that that would take away agency, and agency, in large part, is what Christ died for. (Yes, we could get back into the whole debate I prompted a few months ago when I posited that Christ died for agency and Five Solas/Erik posted, "But I thought the LDS believe Christ died for sins," and so on: But to me, that's rather a "Po-tay-toh, po-tah-toh, to-may-toh, to-mah-toh" question. ) There is a multitude of reasons why anything bad, including death and especially a death which is considered untimely, might happen. Such reasons may include (but are not necessarily limited to) the following: Man's inhumanity to man Living in a fallen world with mortal bodies which are subject to such things as pneumonia (I'm not suggesting it's your time, Duncan: Sorry you're ill; get well soon!) and (in my sister-in-law's case) cancer and so on; "Hap crappening," and so on. The only thing of which I am relatively certain (as certain of as any mortal, with limited powers of perception, cognition, reasoning, and so on, can be) is that whether a death is "timely" or not (is there such a thing? no matter how long we/they live, it's still not easy to part with loved ones), a la Romans 8:28, no earthly condition or decision, no matter how bad the consequences resulting from anyone's particular use of agency might be, ever will frustrate the Lord's ultimate purposes. 2
Kenngo1969 Posted May 10, 2017 Posted May 10, 2017 11 minutes ago, Gray said: No, God doesn't intervene in the timing of anyone's death. I respect your opinion to the contrary, but I think it would be more accurate to say, perhaps, that God doesn't necessarily intervene in the timing of everyone's death. The Lord, after reassuring Joseph Smith that He was intimately aware of Joseph's trials, told Joseph Smith that the bounds of his enemies "[were] set. They [could not] pass," going on to tell him, "Thy days are known, and thy years shall not be numbered less; therefore, fear not what man can do, for God shall be with you forever and ever" (Doctrine & Covenants 122:9). 1
JAHS Posted May 10, 2017 Author Posted May 10, 2017 2 minutes ago, Gray said: No, God doesn't intervene in the timing of anyone's death. So are you saying if a person has a set time he is going to die, based on God's all-knowing attribute, God doesn't make any unexpected on the spot decision to take a person for a greater purpose in heaven?
clarkgoble Posted May 10, 2017 Posted May 10, 2017 (edited) 18 hours ago, JAHS said: I have heard at funerals of church members who have died. "God must have needed them for more important work". Does God actually cause the death of someone because He needs them on the other side for missionary work or some other reason? Or do people just die for whatever reason and God uses them once they get there? I don't know that we really know, although I certainly think it's a live possibility. We really have almost no knowledge about what members are doing in the Spirit World beyond statements about a lot of missionary work going on. I suspect from God's perspective our focus on this life seems more than a little myopic. Although clearly that's part of the point of mortality. To have that limited view. I certainly think God might cause people's death for other reasons. Say they're in pain with a terminal illness and pray for a release. So the idea of God taking people seems reasonable to assume. Once you allow it in that case it seems hard to dismiss it in other cases where God's aims are met by someone's death. But like others I am very skeptical of the idea that everyone's death is picked by God. I rather think he lets most things just proceed on their own. Edited May 10, 2017 by clarkgoble
Kenngo1969 Posted May 10, 2017 Posted May 10, 2017 48 minutes ago, clarkgoble said: ... I certainly think God might cause people's death for other reasons. Say they're in pain with a terminal illness and pray for a release. So the idea of God taking people seems reasonable to assume. Once you allow it in that case it seems hard to dismiss it in other cases where God's aims are met by someone's death. ... That's exactly what happened to my sister-in-law: Once it became clear that there was no hope she would be cured, the family prayed for her release from mortality. While I admit that I have no reason, other than the fact that her release was granted, for believing that those prayers were answered, I am completely certain that, with Paul, she "fought the good fight, finished her course, and kept the faith" (2 Timothy 4:7). 1
strappinglad Posted May 10, 2017 Posted May 10, 2017 According to our friend Wiki , about 150,000 people die every day in the world. That's a lot of cashiers processing those who are cashing in their chips. If God's house is a house of order, then there will be very few exceptional situations that run contrary to the established order of things. This is of course mine own opinion and I would never make any kind of a definitive dogmatic statement on the subject.
Ouagadougou Posted May 10, 2017 Posted May 10, 2017 20 hours ago, JAHS said: I have heard at funerals of church members who have died. "God must have needed them for more important work". Does God actually cause the death of someone because He needs them on the other side for missionary work or some other reason? Or do people just die for whatever reason and God uses them once they get there? IMO, people just die for whatever reason because of our natural state and the fact that God and our world are bound by natural laws. I don't think God causes people to die in order to use them for missionary work; we were already doomed to die the moment we took our first breath of life. ~150,000 people die every day in the world. http://www.worldometers.info/world-population/ Ultimately, we are all dead men/women and will have to depart from this physical state -- it's the one constant in life. Being mortal, IMO, truly gives live meaning, because any minute could be our last. "Memento mori" 1
Ouagadougou Posted May 10, 2017 Posted May 10, 2017 42 minutes ago, strappinglad said: According to our friend Wiki , about 150,000 people die every day in the world. That's a lot of cashiers processing those who are cashing in their chips. If God's house is a house of order, then there will be very few exceptional situations that run contrary to the established order of things. This is of course mine own opinion and I would never make any kind of a definitive dogmatic statement on the subject. I just saw your post and posted this as well. Here's cool link: http://www.worldometers.info/world-population/ 150,000 every day! We are not unique, special snowflakes! 😀
Tacenda Posted May 10, 2017 Posted May 10, 2017 I don't believe God causes deaths, especially the ones in the Bible! I believe man caused the deaths and used God as an excuse. Also, I believe there are many agnostics thinking that God causes deaths or doesn't do anything to prevent them. I believe like someone else mentioned, that there is free agency. He surely feels sad for those that suffer and hopefully he sends down the angels in circumstances to help alleviate how things go. I believe our time on earth is so small compared to the big picture and maybe that's why what happens is uncontrollable on his part or isn't and he has to let it happen. Actually I don't know if anything I've said is true, totally guessing. But the God I believe in doesn't kill people like the Bible states.
JAHS Posted May 10, 2017 Author Posted May 10, 2017 23 minutes ago, Tacenda said: But the God I believe in doesn't kill people like the Bible states. Yes, it would seem like He is violating one of His own commandments. Interesting how thousands are killed by God's wrath in the Old Testament but there is none of that in the New Testament. The closest thing that comes to it is when Jesus cursed a fig tree causing it to wither and die. 2
clarkgoble Posted May 10, 2017 Posted May 10, 2017 20 minutes ago, JAHS said: Yes, it would seem like He is violating one of His own commandments. Interesting how thousands are killed by God's wrath in the Old Testament but there is none of that in the New Testament. The closest thing that comes to it is when Jesus cursed a fig tree causing it to wither and die. There is Ananias and Sapphira in Acts 5 though. Also, depending upon how you look at it lots of Old Testament like language in Revelation not to mention things like Matt 10:34 "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword." So there's not as big a difference as some suggest.
sunstoned Posted May 11, 2017 Posted May 11, 2017 On 5/9/2017 at 5:00 PM, bluebell said: I think when people say that they mean that they believe God allowed the person to die instead of intervening. Not that God actually killed them. I think if we take the OT literally, then there is ample examples of god killing people. 1
bluebell Posted May 11, 2017 Posted May 11, 2017 17 minutes ago, sunstoned said: I think if we take the OT literally, then there is ample examples of god killing people. None of those examples match the example in the OP though. 1
sunstoned Posted May 11, 2017 Posted May 11, 2017 1 hour ago, bluebell said: None of those examples match the example in the OP though. Dead is dead. If you believe the Bible, people, including young children, were killed by God. Most were killed in not a very nice way. Drowning, turned into salt, torn apart by a bear, raped and killed by his chosen people, etc. 1
JAHS Posted May 11, 2017 Author Posted May 11, 2017 1 hour ago, sunstoned said: 2 hours ago, bluebell said: None of those examples match the example in the OP though. Dead is dead. If you believe the Bible, people, including young children, were killed by God. Most were killed in not a very nice way. Drowning, turned into salt, torn apart by a bear, raped and killed by his chosen people, etc. I think most agree that God did cleanse the earth of wicked people at times, but "dead is dead" is not the subject of the OP. The question was is there doctrine to back up the notion that God causes a person to die so they can be brought into heaven to perform a "greater work"? 2
Robert F. Smith Posted May 11, 2017 Posted May 11, 2017 On 5/9/2017 at 5:33 PM, strappinglad said: Contrary to the opinion of some here, there was an instance in scripture when God took A LOT of people home all at once. See the Flood. Hard to argue that He let all work out and didn't intervene. The Bible contains many instances in which God took lives. However, we also have instances in which he healed people. We also have modern accounts in which those who have died have been sent back -- as in this instance in which Dean Braxton was told specifically by Jesus "I need you there more than I need you here."
Robert F. Smith Posted May 11, 2017 Posted May 11, 2017 5 hours ago, JAHS said: Yes, it would seem like He is violating one of His own commandments. Interesting how thousands are killed by God's wrath in the Old Testament but there is none of that in the New Testament. The closest thing that comes to it is when Jesus cursed a fig tree causing it to wither and die. The commandment is "You will not murder." There is no commandment in the Bible saying "Thou shalt not kill," except in an erroneous English translation. 1
JAHS Posted May 11, 2017 Author Posted May 11, 2017 1 minute ago, Robert F. Smith said: The commandment is "You will not murder." There is no commandment in the Bible saying "Thou shalt not kill," except in an erroneous English translation. Yes I am aware of that, that's why I said "seem like". I guess we have to assume that God had a legitimate reason for causing the death of so many people. I am just not so sure that He also does it to bring people into heaven to perform a greater work.
JAHS Posted May 11, 2017 Author Posted May 11, 2017 32 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: The Bible contains many instances in which God took lives. However, we also have instances in which he healed people. We also have modern accounts in which those who have died have been sent back -- as in this instance in which Dean Braxton was told specifically by Jesus "I need you there more than I need you here." But was his experience real or just something going on inside his brain because of his beliefs. And of course he has his own ministry, writing and selling books and has become famous on TV and other media. I don't consider any stories like this proof of an after life. We are to live this life by faith; all of us. Why is he so special to no longer need to have faith?
carbon dioxide Posted May 11, 2017 Posted May 11, 2017 God has caused the death or many. 3 Nephi has a lot of wicked Nephites being taken out by God. God promises that he will take out a bunch of people in the last days if they do not repent.
JAHS Posted May 11, 2017 Author Posted May 11, 2017 5 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said: God has caused the death or many. 3 Nephi has a lot of wicked Nephites being taken out by God. God promises that he will take out a bunch of people in the last days if they do not repent. Yes that is is well known as others have said, but that is not what the original OP is about. It seems like people only read the title of the OP and not the content.
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