The foolish life of living with the Spirit

[bluebell]

20 minutes ago, Duncan said:

That's been may experience. Long story very short, I felt SOOOOOOOOO much pressure to get married from leaders, people and I did it but wasn't in love at all and I people pleased all the way to a divorce. I often think what would my life had been like if I hadn't gotten married? and I can only speculate

Do you believe that God, through the spirit, told you to marry her then?  

[stemelbow]

I have thought of a new way to interpret this.  When this happened Elder Holland was younger, we'll say, and thus was less versed in the ways fo the Spirit.  So when they were sent down the wrong path, if it went on for a while, he would have questioned revelation, or if they were given they weren't tricked by the Spirit to learn a lesson and were sent down the right path to begin with, he would have doubted, jumped ship, and panicked.  God needed to teach him to trust revelation, so he wouldn't panic, jump ship, and doubt.  So God used this inconsequential event to teach Him to trust revelation, no matter what.  Thus, for the rest of his life, Elder Holland was not sent down wrong paths like many others who would not trust revelation and never learned that vital lesson.

This story has stuck with me for a long time because of an event from my youth.

Friends and I went backpacking for a good week or so.  We weren't fond of scouts leading us so we did it ourselves on this trip.  On the last day, back to our pick up spot, I had trouble with my pack.  It kept coming undone.  we were all feeling hungry and ready to get back so we were hurrying.  I figured I could take a second and fix it nice and tight and still have time to catch the rest of the crew.  So i told them to soldier on.  I"l catch up.  I got it fixed and headed on at a fast pace to catch up.  about 5 or 6 hours later I still had not caught up.  I was pretty certain there was no way they would have gotten that far ahead.  But I came upon a fork in the trail that looked unfamiliar to me and I was unsure which way was correct.  I prayed and followed the left one as I felt inspired.  I went at a torrid pace down that path for another hour and doubted.  "none of this looks familiar....I'm way out fo the way now....no one will wait for me if I have to go back..."  I prayed again and felt assured to keep going.  So I got up and started again, feeling fairly confident.  That confidence crashed within a few minutes and I cried wondering if God was hearing me in my time of trouble.  I sat, prayed again, and ate my last piece of food I had saved.  Just then, coming up the trail behind me, I could hear commotion.  Ahhh...my friends were all behind me coming up the trail.  What relief!   

I panicked a bit.  I soldiered on, though.  Jumping ship?  Not sure how I would have done that, but I might have thought about it as ideas of living the rest of my life in the backwoods of Wyoming came to me.  I dont' know what my experience means though.  I was told to go down the right path.  Wasn't sure it was the right path, but kept going.  The wrong path might have gone on for another 500 yards and ended at a lake for all I knew.  Ah well, I guess that's why Elder Holland is an apostle and I'm a nothing. 

[Atheist Mormon]

2 hours ago, stemelbow said:

Where I'm getting to is this.  If we pray and head down the road, learn its bad and try to correct it, then the Spirit has directed us so we can learn that it's was bad.  If we don't pray and head down a road learning it is good, what does that say about praying, The Spirit and us? 

I've been on that lonely dirt road more than I count, managed to get lost no water on me. I can tell you confidently it doesn't work.

[stemelbow]

8 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I'm pretty sure the story doesn't say that God will lead us down wrong paths.  Did i miss that in there somewhere?

Besides that though, if you disagree, you can share the parts of the story that you believe teach that God will lead us down the wrong path and cause harm and heartache so i can understand your point of view better.  

I'm not seeing them in there but if you are, I'd love for you to share them.

I'm not sure how to respond, Bluebell.  That was the whole point of the story it seems.  They felt, after they prayed, that they should go down the wrong path.  Are you seeing it differently? 

I don't know or care about harm or heartache.  If that doesn't resonate with you.  I'm fine with that. 

[stemelbow]

5 minutes ago, Atheist Mormon said:

I've been on that lonely dirt road more than I count, managed to get lost no water on me. I can tell you confidently it doesn't work.

Well, you're not dead. 

[Johnnie Cake]

This is an example of the spirit getting its cake and eating it too or another example of the spirit winning even when it gives a false answer...or in other words the spirit always wins...even when it loses it still wins or even when the spirit ir wrong it's right.

[bluebell]

6 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

I'm not sure how to respond, Bluebell.  That was the whole point of the story it seems.  They felt, after they prayed, that they should go down the wrong path.  Are you seeing it differently? 

 

There's a difference between saying that God can or might lead you down the wrong path and that God will lead you down the wrong path.  

You summarized my point using 'will' and I was just asking for clarification for where the idea that He will lead someone down the wrong path came from.  I don't believe that so it didn't come from me. I was wondering if it was actually stated like that in the story.

 

[Calm]

Sometimes I don't get answers to my prayers, but I see a need to move.  So I let God know I am taking his silence this time as his faith in me to make the choice myself and if I start taking too wrong a step, I have faith he will provide roadblocks that slow or stop progress as a sign I am to stop and do some more investigating/soul searching.  I understand how many will see that as a self fulfilling whatever, that it is impossible for me to test, etc., but I would differ because of the internal experiences that go along with the communication that being internal and nonverbal for the most part are impossible to describe sufficiently to convince.

I am only mentioning this because sometimes I believe God requires us to take the first steps as evidence to ourselves that we are committed before he provides the needed information.  Sometimes he knows that us waiting around on him isn't healthy and he doesn't want us to develop the habit, imo.  And thus we may end up heading down the road a ways before we get a course correction.

I think we are here to learn what is important to ourselves and not just be led around by the nose  by the spirit, so he doesn't provide us with a detailed road map, turning our choices solely into yea or nays.  It may not be the most efficient, but I think it is the most effective.  A little wise and worthy exploration is not a bad thing, but over all stay focused on the goal.

Now that may not be what Elder Holland meant by his story, but that is what I got out of it,

Edited April 28, 2017 by Calm

[Duncan]

Just now, bluebell said:

Do you believe that God, through the spirit, told you to marry her then?  

that's a tough question, I remember going to the Temple one time and praying about it but I got no answer, either way, whereas something else I had prayed about in the Temple I got a distinct NO about but for some reason I told her I wanted to get married but was ambivalent(I didn't tell her that part!) and then i got a blessing at some point and I was todl we were meant to be together so I never felt 100% certain this is what I should do. My Bishop was all over us in YSA about dating, missions, school and in hindsight it backfired all over the place, divorces, dropping out of school and church, coming home early from missions and all this stuff. I believe that others wanted me to get married ASAP-my Mission president told me to do it today, my stake president even gave me a blessing on my return from my mission and he later gave me a calling and told i'd have this calling until I got married my Bishop as I said before, he told us (in hindsight) just ridiculous stuff and advice and I caved to all of it. So, did God want me to get married, yes, but to her and then I just don't know.

Since that time i've learned a TON about life, Church that could I have gotten any other way? I don't know. Plus, at what cost is that learning, an unbaptized son who enjoys Church but can't participate really because he doesn't have the priesthood, I don't know

Edited April 28, 2017 by Duncan

[CV75]

1 hour ago, stemelbow said:

WEll, if God sent them on the right road and they travelled along they would have saved themselves the few minutes they took to go down the wrong road, and would have gotten home anyway.  This certainly wasn't a life or death situation, it seems.  The quickest way surely was to send them down the right road to begin with.  If they questioned it?  So?  They still would have gotten home at some point.  There was nothing dire to worry about.

huh?  I guess we have different ideas of what "expedient" and "temporal salvation" means. 

Sure.  I think there's stuff to agree with here.  This is interesting (quoting Holland, I presume) "God expects us to pray, trust, and be believing and then not give up, panic, or "jump ship" when something doesn't seem to be going right"  Is he trying to claim they would have jumped ship, panicked, or gave up if they were directed down the right road?  He's got some pretty screwy logic as it pertains to this story.

Note it was the quickest (most expedient) way to give them information on how to get to their temporal home, not necessarily the quickest way to get them home. Big difference!

Presumably the Lord’s aim was to get them home safely and without undue agitation, and perhaps teach an important lesson, rather than get them home quickly. After all, His priorities are not necessarily our priorities. The instruction given speaks to the two-part dynamic between the Spirit and the spirit, and the Lord knew how they would best respond in their best interest given His knowledge of their skills in participating in the communication process. We can also speculate that the time spent on the so-called “wrong road” allowed dangers to be cleared from the “right road” before they got there – maybe it was a dire situation after all (we don’t know, not that we must) -- or opportunities to ponder and bond with the added time (who knows / cares).

Now let’s not jump to hasty conclusions about Elder Holland’s logic being screwy. As the account goes, they were unsure of what to do and are exemplary in doing what God expected (prayed, trusted, and were believing), rather than panic. There is more than one lessons going on here. Once they got their answer, they wondered why they were guided with that set of facts and in that fashion, and came to a couple of conclusions that would help them as guiding truths later in life. Sometimes sound logic requires comprehending the facts at hand.

1 hour ago, stemelbow said:

The problem with this is, of course, we're all human and all of us get distracted in some way or another.  if the blame is not on getting directed in the first place but on us, then isn't it God who knows we'll get distracted that led us there so we can learn from our distraction and failure? 

Without commenting on whether God knows how all marriages will turn out and/or recuses Himself from our exercise of agency, not everyone thinks the same way, and when we ask if so-and-so is a good person to marry, or “the” person to marry or “should” marry, He certainly answers one way or another, and we hear Him (or don’t) and follow suit (or don’t). The probationary state in and of itself is not the problem.

[Atheist Mormon]

44 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Well, you're not dead. 

I meant to say.......The communication is not there.

[CV75]

1 hour ago, stemelbow said:

I have thought of a new way to interpret this.  When this happened Elder Holland was younger, we'll say, and thus was less versed in the ways fo the Spirit.  So when they were sent down the wrong path, if it went on for a while, he would have questioned revelation, or if they were given they weren't tricked by the Spirit to learn a lesson and were sent down the right path to begin with, he would have doubted, jumped ship, and panicked.  God needed to teach him to trust revelation, so he wouldn't panic, jump ship, and doubt.  So God used this inconsequential event to teach Him to trust revelation, no matter what.  Thus, for the rest of his life, Elder Holland was not sent down wrong paths like many others who would not trust revelation and never learned that vital lesson.

This story has stuck with me for a long time because of an event from my youth.

Friends and I went backpacking for a good week or so.  We weren't fond of scouts leading us so we did it ourselves on this trip.  On the last day, back to our pick up spot, I had trouble with my pack.  It kept coming undone.  we were all feeling hungry and ready to get back so we were hurrying.  I figured I could take a second and fix it nice and tight and still have time to catch the rest of the crew.  So i told them to soldier on.  I"l catch up.  I got it fixed and headed on at a fast pace to catch up.  about 5 or 6 hours later I still had not caught up.  I was pretty certain there was no way they would have gotten that far ahead.  But I came upon a fork in the trail that looked unfamiliar to me and I was unsure which way was correct.  I prayed and followed the left one as I felt inspired.  I went at a torrid pace down that path for another hour and doubted.  "none of this looks familiar....I'm way out fo the way now....no one will wait for me if I have to go back..."  I prayed again and felt assured to keep going.  So I got up and started again, feeling fairly confident.  That confidence crashed within a few minutes and I cried wondering if God was hearing me in my time of trouble.  I sat, prayed again, and ate my last piece of food I had saved.  Just then, coming up the trail behind me, I could hear commotion.  Ahhh...my friends were all behind me coming up the trail.  What relief!   

I panicked a bit.  I soldiered on, though.  Jumping ship?  Not sure how I would have done that, but I might have thought about it as ideas of living the rest of my life in the backwoods of Wyoming came to me.  I dont' know what my experience means though.  I was told to go down the right path.  Wasn't sure it was the right path, but kept going.  The wrong path might have gone on for another 500 yards and ended at a lake for all I knew.  Ah well, I guess that's why Elder Holland is an apostle and I'm a nothing. 

Deeewd, in Elder Holland's account, they already trusted revelation. That is why they prayed. The “wrong” road was just the quickest means to reveal to them a fact that would get them to the “right” road in the most beneficial way, at the right time (for many possible reasons), not necessarily the quickest, time.

Your story is more about trusting revelations and sticking with an answer even when it seemed doubtful. A different message, but just as valid as the one from Elder Holland’s story.

Edited April 28, 2017 by CV75

[Gray]

4 hours ago, stemelbow said:

I like to use the term foolproof when speaking of the workings of the Spirit, as in it's not foolproof (sorry if it's annoying to some, as I've used it here many times.  But I don't know a better way to put it).  We're all fools when it comes to God and the Spirit, I figure, so we're all going to make mistakes when dealing with the Spirit and it's influence.  I used to attribute the Spirit's influence in my life with telling me what's true, most often.  I'm not sure that's our best bet anymore, even if in some cases it can surely be a great tool in getting us to true stuff. But as the years have gone on and as I've been able to work with that influence that I call the Spirit, I've learned that He helps me identify what's good and what works for me, more so than what's true.  So I've kind of morphed from saying things like "the Church is true" (a phrase that feels meaningless to me now) to saying the Church has many good and helpful aspects.  The Spirit's influence and direction is individual and subjective.  One can be influenced by the Spirit and be Muslim or Buddhist, just as well, and perhaps in many cases better than one can be LDS and have the Spirit's influence.  That may sound anathema to some, or some might say, "well sure other's can feel the Spirit but given that LDS are given the gift of the Holy Ghost we get precedence as it is an extra blessing to us.  So we know more truth and have better access to God".  I doubt that's true.  The Spirit's great influence, I'd suggest, is to guide us into loving others and God.  This is difficult though.  We all love other people.  We may feel we're better at it than others, but I don't know how we gauge such things.  It's unfair of us to try.  We simply can't see enough. 

Recall with me, Elder Holland's story about following the spirit.  He and his son were driving down some dirt road, heading home.  On their way they came upon a fork in the road that they didn't expect which didn't look familiar.  They each prayed and felt like they should go down the one way which turned out to be wrong.  Elder Holland says that God wanted them to know they were going to be going down the right road when they did get going on the right road.  Something about the fastest way to know they were going the right way.  Cute story, it's been shared all over the place, as you can see a video was made about it with touching music setting a mood.  But what does it tell us?

God can direct any one of us in any direction so we can head down the wrong road for a while until we learn it to be wrong.  So we can be headed down the road that is the Church's path and learn at some point it is the wrong way.  We could have gotten married having felt so influenced by the Spirit in our decision to do so, only to see years later it was the wrong road and our kids might have to deal with the effects of our bad choice. 

Where I'm getting to is this.  If we pray and head down the road, learn its bad and try to correct it, then the Spirit has directed us so we can learn that it's was bad.  If we don't pray and head down a road learning it is good, what does that say about praying, The Spirit and us? 

We will never know if the Spirit's influence is getting us where we need to go, unless at some point he leads us in the wrong direction so we can learn for ourselves that it was wrong?  Does that idea work? 

Interested in thoughts on this very important topic. 

I've had similar experiences to Elder Holland. You can kind of drive yourself nuts trying to figure out why God gives you revelation and it turns out to be wrong. My conclusion - God does not speak. But we do hear and receive revelation. It doesn't work like a compass needle. It's subjective and internal, a part of our own inner spark. 

It's like listening to pink noise. Sometimes you can pick up sounds that aren't there if you listen long enough. Sometimes what you hear can even be illuminating and important. 

[Maidservant]

Am I the only one who does NOT ask God what I should do and wait to hear an answer before moving?  I didn't even ask him to confirm my marriage. (I was 19, and it was basically my way of getting out of my stepfather's house.  Didn't need to ask anybody about how urgent that was, any way, shape, or form.)  (My marriage was an excruciating passage in my life; but I also have received many blessings from the path I took.  It's not either/or.)  I almost always know exactly what I want to do and will do, and I intend to do it.  And I know myself too well that if by some measure God/Holy Ghost were to tell me something else, I wouldn't listen anyway.  So God and I don't really have that kind of relationship.  I already want to do good things--be a good mother, do well in my calling, do well in business, be a kind person to everyone in the world.  I'm not sure what a confirmation of a 'pathway' could add to that.

I *do* experience what I call 'conversation with God' as a minute by minute constant.  The prayer between God and I never begins nor ends.  It's always there, open, plugged in.

When I applied for law school, as I had been planning for some time and dreaming for years, I also was in the middle of starting a business, and I wondered if I should stop doing that and do law school; if I should not apply to law school; or if I could do both at the same time without going insane (although they were very divergent paths taking much focus).  But I wondered this of myself, and I wanted to answer myself, not hear God.  But I also decided and/or heard God mention that, why don't you apply, and see what happens there, and then you'll know which path will emerge.  So I applied to law school, didn't get in.  So I committed even more fully to the other path.  But the application process for law school, even though it ultimately failed, was a very important few months of my life, I learned a lot, I'm glad I did it, it was fun even; and I would have regretted not doing it and always wondered.  It was not a 'yes' or 'no', and it didn't need to be.  It was the process of life, leavened by the companionship of the Spirit.

A few years before, when I was at a major turning point, and I deliberately created space for Revelation, even then, I was not ASKING God what I should DO.  I DID want the Holy Ghost to enter the process and enlighten MY abilities--MY feelings, MY thoughts, MY decision making, etc.  I intended to make my own decision, but I did want to be my best self by the influence of the spirit.  And I generally go about things that way.  I already know what I'm going to do (like write an article) but I invite the Spirit to be there (and, indeed, the article writing goes much smoother and my mind and abilities are clearer).

There have been times.  I know when I was making a decision about whether or not to sign a Do Not Rescucitate on my husband (he had already lost his ability to make that decision, so his life was in my hands), I was, "God??!?? Really?!!?"  And I prayed to be TOLD what I should do, and as soon as I got up from the prayer, the Bishop called me and told me what to do.  I didn't consider it the Bishop talking, nor his opinion.  It was God talking to me on the phone, and he knew I needed more than a 'feeling'.  So he moved the Bishop.  That was the day God called me on the phone.

Speaking of being led down wrong paths so you know which one it isn't.  I have often wondered how different my life and my children's life would have been if only God could have shown me DECADES EARLIER, I mean REALLY, at ANY POINT IN THAT TIME FRAME (so, you  know, not just off by a day or few minutes, but decades)--if he could have shown me that I needed medication or other serious help.  Even if I didn't know the questions to ask.  Because eventually I was led to understand my challenges and how to heal.  But why so long?  I could have avoided so much and our life would have been so much more good and holy and not riddled with damage.  It was wrestling with this question and others that led me to understand that our quest in this world is not really about being righteous or 'getting to the Celestial Kingdom' (maniacal laugh, lol).  I learned for myself that we came here to get right in the middle of all the tough shizz, not to avoid it as a sign of God's favor or presence.  WE WANTED TO DO THIS.  WE WANTED THIS RIDE.  I have transformed and know myself AND GOD by what I have gone through, not by being 'blessed' by being spared the 'wrong path'.  It's just not so binary.

These days I just say to HG, "If you could JUST not let me leave the house today without forgetting [fill-in-the-blank-tiny-but-crucial-item-that-otherwise-causes-frustrating-annoyance-without-it]!" (<<good application of PROMPTINGS, ha ha, I'm thinking.) He's usually pretty good about it . . . lol.

I have never had a Witness that the Book of Mormon was true.  As a young teenage girl I prayed for weeks in the backyard near a tree (my best attempt at recreating the sacred grove, I thought a First Vision was a function of my level of fervency).  I stopped when I heard a thought (maybe my own?) in my head say, "I'm not going to answer you something you already know."  I still think it's funny!!!

How about this Holy Ghost?  The one who takes a girl who has heard her entire life (in General Conference) about staying at home as a mom, being in an eternal marriage, a certain perspective on gender roles, having no grave sins, having many talents and bright future--and strips all of these identity/righteous markers from her and says, "This is not Me.  This is not Me.  This is not my gospel. That's not me. This is not the real you.  That has nothing to do with the atonement. etc etc etc"  It was breathtakingly brutal, this working of the Holy Ghost!!! It was almost ALL the wrong path!!!  As I once asked my mom, "How do I choose between two bad things!!!"  She answered, "Well, do you mean like Eve had to?"

Well, I (mostly) survived the Holy Ghost's (sanctifying) work with me (although of course, hardly finished).  The truth he wanted to testify:  That I am a broken, working, single, no-role, screwed up woman who IS JUST FINE THE WAY SHE IS (and I know who I am without checking with God) and GOD IS STILL HERE WITH ME.  I thought He'd be long gone, but nope, He is still ahead, laughing at me, beckoning, "Another day?"

Edited April 29, 2017 by Maidservant

[Robert F. Smith]

11 hours ago, stemelbow said:

...............................................................................

Where I'm getting to is this.  If we pray and head down the road, learn its bad and try to correct it, then the Spirit has directed us so we can learn that it's was bad.  If we don't pray and head down a road learning it is good, what does that say about praying, The Spirit and us? 

We will never know if the Spirit's influence is getting us where we need to go, unless at some point he leads us in the wrong direction so we can learn for ourselves that it was wrong?  Does that idea work? 

..............................................................................  

You are stating the existentialist dilemma, and there is no way out of the regressive and relativistic assumptions you are making.  Reminds me of Sartre's play "No Exit."  However, even Einstein did not believe that God played with dice, and application of Alma 33 is a positive way to measure the effect of faith in all endeavors.  As a practical matter, does it work?  If not, jettison it.  Right?

As an aside:  It isn't so much whether a particular church is true, but rather whether the Gospel is true.

[Broker]

2 hours ago, Maidservant said:

Am I the only one who does NOT ask God what I should do and wait to hear an answer before moving?  I didn't even ask him to confirm my marriage. (I was 19, and it was basically my way of getting out of my stepfather's house.  Didn't need to ask anybody about how urgent that was, any way, shape, or form.)  (My marriage was an excruciating passage in my life; but I also have received many blessings from the path I took.  It's not either/or.)  I almost always know exactly what I want to do and will do, and I intend to do it.  And I know myself too well that if by some measure God/Holy Ghost were to tell me something else, I wouldn't listen anyway.  So God and I don't really have that kind of relationship.  I already want to do good things--be a good mother, do well in my calling, do well in business, be a kind person to everyone in the world.  I'm not sure what a confirmation of a 'pathway' could add to that.

I *do* experience what I call 'conversation with God' as a minute by minute constant.  The prayer between God and I never begins nor ends.  It's always there, open, plugged in.

When I applied for law school, as I had been planning for some time and dreaming for years, I also was in the middle of starting a business, and I wondered if I should stop doing that and do law school; if I should not apply to law school; or if I could do both at the same time without going insane (although they were very divergent paths taking much focus).  But I wondered this of myself, and I wanted to answer myself, not hear God.  But I also decided and/or heard God mention that, why don't you apply, and see what happens there, and then you'll know which path will emerge.  So I applied to law school, didn't get in.  So I committed even more fully to the other path.  But the application process for law school, even though it ultimately failed, was a very important few months of my life, I learned a lot, I'm glad I did it, it was fun even; and I would have regretted not doing it and always wondered.  It was not a 'yes' or 'no', and it didn't need to be.  It was the process of life, leavened by the companionship of the Spirit.

A few years before, when I was at a major turning point, and I deliberately created space for Revelation, even then, I was not ASKING God what I should DO.  I DID want the Holy Ghost to enter the process and enlighten MY abilities--MY feelings, MY thoughts, MY decision making, etc.  I intended to make my own decision, but I did want to be my best self by the influence of the spirit.  And I generally go about things that way.  I already know what I'm going to do (like write an article) but I invite the Spirit to be there (and, indeed, the article writing goes much smoother and my mind and abilities are clearer).

There have been times.  I know when I was making a decision about whether or not to sign a Do Not Rescucitate on my husband (he had already lost his ability to make that decision, so his life was in my hands), I was, "God??!?? Really?!!?"  And I prayed to be TOLD what I should do, and as soon as I got up from the prayer, the Bishop called me and told me what to do.  I didn't consider it the Bishop talking, nor his opinion.  It was God talking to me on the phone, and he knew I needed more than a 'feeling'.  So he moved the Bishop.  That was the day God called me on the phone.

Speaking of being led down wrong paths so you know which one it isn't.  I have often wondered how different my life and my children's life would have been if only God could have shown me DECADES EARLIER, I mean REALLY, at ANY POINT IN THAT TIME FRAME (so, you  know, not just off by a day or few minutes, but decades)--if he could have shown me that I needed medication or other serious help.  Even if I didn't know the questions to ask.  Because eventually I was led to understand my challenges and how to heal.  But why so long?  I could have avoided so much and our life would have been so much more good and holy and not riddled with damage.  It was wrestling with this question and others that led me to understand that our quest in this world is not really about being righteous or 'getting to the Celestial Kingdom' (maniacal laugh, lol).  I learned for myself that we came here to get right in the middle of all the tough shizz, not to avoid it as a sign of God's favor or presence.  WE WANTED TO DO THIS.  WE WANTED THIS RIDE.  I have transformed and know myself AND GOD by what I have gone through, not by being 'blessed' by being spared the 'wrong path'.  It's just not so binary.

These days I just say to HG, "If you could JUST not let me leave the house today without forgetting [fill-in-the-blank-tiny-but-crucial-item-that-otherwise-causes-frustrating-annoyance-without-it]!" (<<good application of PROMPTINGS, ha ha, I'm thinking.) He's usually pretty good about it . . . lol.

I have never had a Witness that the Book of Mormon was true.  As a young teenage girl I prayed for weeks in the backyard near a tree (my best attempt at recreating the sacred grove, I thought a First Vision was a function of my level of fervency).  I stopped when I heard a thought (maybe my own?) in my head say, "I'm not going to answer you something you already know."  I still think it's funny!!!

How about this Holy Ghost?  The one who takes a girl who has heard her entire life (in General Conference) about staying at home as a mom, being in an eternal marriage, a certain perspective on gender roles, having no grave sins, having many talents and bright future--and strips all of these identity/righteous markers from her and says, "This is not Me.  This is not Me.  This is not my gospel. That's not me. This is not the real you.  That has nothing to do with the atonement. etc etc etc"  It was breathtakingly brutal, this working of the Holy Ghost!!! It was almost ALL the wrong path!!!  As I once asked my mom, "How do I choose between two bad things!!!"  She answered, "Well, do you mean like Eve had to?"

Well, I (mostly) survived the Holy Ghost's (sanctifying) work with me (although of course, hardly finished).  The truth he wanted to testify:  That I am a broken, working, single, no-role, screwed up woman who IS JUST FINE THE WAY SHE IS (and I know who I am without checking with God) and GOD IS STILL HERE WITH ME.  I thought He'd be long gone, but nope, He is still ahead, laughing at me, beckoning, "Another day?"

 

[Broker]

Maidservant-

Sounds to me like your trials and spiritual/emotional peaks and valleys have enabled you to develop a relationship with, and understanding of, the workings of the Holy Ghost that far exceeds what most of us experience.

Thanks for sharing. Very real and very inspirational.

 

[Kenngo1969]

9 hours ago, Calm said:

Sometimes I don't get answers to my prayers, but I see a need to move.  ...

Quote

If I ask [God] to give me wisdom concerning any requirement in life, or in regard to my own course, or that of my friends, my family, my children, or those that I preside over, and get no answer from him, and then do the very best that my judgment will teach me, he is bound to own and honor that transaction, and he will do so to all intents and purposes (Discourses of Brigham Young 43, as quoted in Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Brigham Young, Chapter 6).

 

[Kenngo1969]

I've told the Reader's Digest Condensed Version ™ of my story here several times. I wasn't sure I wanted to continue my education after getting a bachelor's degree, and I delayed 5-6 years: I got a part-time, non-benefitted, non-guaranteed-hours job answering phones for my local sheriff's office for a couple of months, traded that for a full-time, benefitted job as a telephone solicitor for a family film company making $7 per hour for about six months, and traded that for a job as a telephone customer service representative for which my ending pay was $11.05 hour after a little more than two years. I still wasn't sure if I wanted to continue my education, but I foolishly quit that job without having anything else lined up. About three months after that, I got a part-time job working 30 hours a week in parking enforcement. As much as might have left to be desired, I loved that job because I wasn't cooped up in a cubicle and tethered to a phone eight hours a day, five days a week, but I was only able to keep it for about four months.

I still wasn't sure it would pay off to continue my education. The only things I was sure of were: (1) that I didn't want to answer phones for the rest of my life, (2) as much as I might've liked working in parking enforcement, I wasn't going to make a career out of yet another part-time, non-benefitted position, and I still I didn't see any way forward without continuing my education. I applied to law school in 2000, enrolled, still wasn't sure continuing my education would pay off, lost my nerve, withdrew before receiving any credit, and got another job: Doing what, you ask? Why, answering phones, of course!—this time for a major retailer. I still wasn't sure continuing my education would pay off, but, again, one thing I was sure of is that I really didn't want to answer phones for the rest of my life. So, I swallowed my pride, screwed up what little courage I had left, and went back in 2001. Law school is hard for everybody, but it was monstrously so for me. At the risk of oversimplifying, most all of my problems could be traced to a complicated behavioral health history on top of trying to deal with the stresses inherent to law school.

An excerpt from an address—one which, ironically, was given by Elder Jeffrey R. Holland, “Cast Not Away, Therefore, Your Confidence”—gave me what little courage I was able to muster even though I pretty regularly felt like quitting. (I excerpted this part of his address and carried the excerpt with me on a laminated card.) Elder Holland said, in part:

Quote

Once there has been illumination, beware the temptation to retreat from a good thing. If it was right when you prayed about it and trusted it and lived for it, it is right now. Don't give up when the pressure mounts. Certainly don't give in to that being who is bent on the destruction of your happiness. Stay the course and see the beauty of life unfold for you.

I've told before, too, of identifying with handcart pioneer Francis Webster, who told of picking a spot in the distance and deciding he could go only that far and no further, only to feel as though someone was pushing his cart when he reached that spot, but looking back and seeing no one. My “spot in the distance” usually was the end of the semester: “It's no use; it's too hard; I'll finish this semester, but I'm done. Even if, by some miracle, somehow, I do manage to finish, I'll never get a job, anyway,” I told myself. Somehow, though, at the end of each semester (even though, mostly, I only realized this in retrospect) I found my second wind—the courage to “keep on keeping on” even though I didn't see any way it would work out in the long run.

One thing that gave me a slim ray of hope is that, when I was set apart for a calling during this very tumultuous time is when high councilor who acted as voice assured me that “the Lord is pleased with the course of your life.” Honestly, I wasn't very good in the calling—although I've kept a note from someone with and for whom I had a chance to pray while I was serving in it in which he told me that, while he doesn't recall exactly what I said during that prayer, because of it, he was reminded particularly of the Lord's love for him. Against all odds, I finally graduated—only to be denied licensure in my would-be chosen profession about six months later due largely, if not entirely, to my complicated behavioral health history.

While I was wondering, in light of the denial of licensure, what I should do next, I wasn't necessarily overly troubled by it, and I wasn't necessarily actively seeking answers. I visited the Nauvoo Temple where my aunt and uncle were serving as temple missionaries at the time and had the chance, for the first time since receiving my own endowment nearly 20 years before, to do initiatories. While I wouldn't expect a particular pass that passage to strike anyone else in the same way nor with the same force that it struck me, a particular passage from that ordinance struck me with unusual force: it talks about wielding a certain instrument in defense of certain assets. It made me think that this long, circuitous, tortuous odyssey I have undertaken in an effort to find a comfortable career niche might not have been completely in vain, after all.

In 2015, I got yet another job. Doing what? Why, answering phones, of course! (But, hey! At least this time, it was for a law firm, so I guess that's progress!) I've told, too, of being subject to the unfortunate arbitrary and capricious whims of She Who Could Not Possibly Be Pleased, Yet Still Must Be Obeyed. Yet again, I quit without having something else lined up (but in fairness, I suspect that this time, I quit right before I would have been chased out the door, anyway). I saw that a certain company was sponsoring a hiring event at Workforce Services in Provo. I decided to go to it, but got the day wrong, so no one from that company was there—but a recruiter from my current employer was there. She gave me a map-reading test—I suck at map-reading, but apparently did well enough to pass this particular test anyway (thank you, Boy Scouts of America!).

I've told of having two failed operations, each of which was followed by six weeks with my lower body completely immobilized in plaster, and of the fact that the medical consensus was to try—yet again—what had already failed, twice. In some ways, those two operations set me back permanently. On rare occasions, I'm tempted to throw myself a pity party—but the trouble with pity parties is that the guest list seldom is more than one name long—and to ask myself why those two operations had to fail. But then, my parents and I found a (then) brash, young, maverick surgeon who was willing to defy the weight of competent medical opinion, and who offered me the chance (not a guarantee, but at least a chance) of recuperating postoperatively in a wheelchair rather than in a cast: three more operations followed in a span of another eighteen months, and each time, consistent with the strong impression I had on the operating table while waiting to be put to sleep, I awoke to the best possible outcome: no cast.

Now, I've come full circle. Additional education (which I undertook to try to escape this fate) notwithstanding, I'm back doing the same thing I sought that education in an effort to try to avoid: Answering phones. (That said, I've been exceptionally well treated by my current employer. In my previous job, being pulled off of the phones was bad news: It meant that, yep, sure enough, She Who Could Not Possibly Be Pleased wasn't pleased! Surprise, surprise! Now? Whenever I'm pulled off of the phone for coaching, the running joke is that I ask, “Am I in trouble?” And invariably, my tongue-in-cheek inquiry is met with equally-tongue-in-cheek incredulity and scorn in reply: “Of course not!” And, while part of this stems from the fact that the job is easy—read also, “repetitive and boring as hell” at times—my supervisor says, “There's really nothing I need to coach you on.”

Wrong road? Would I be better off if I hadn't gotten a law degree? In some ways, perhaps. I wouldn't have to face the prospect of repaying considerable student loan debt without the corresponding hoped-for increase in income. Could things be better? Yeah. I'd like to be making $20-30 an hour as a paralegal, or, failing that, I'd like to work one day for someone who thinks I'm good for something besides answering phones. Why didn't those first two operations work? I dunno. But, “Ken, don't forget how you felt on January 24 and February 14, 1984, and on June 7, 1985.” But could they be worse? Yeah, I could be unable to walk at all. As for work? Hey, at least someone still thinks I'm good for something! The only things I'm sure of are (1) Yeah, I may never escape being tethered to a phone, trapped in a cubicle, answering calls all workday, every workday, but I would definitely be far less likely to escape such a fate if I hadn't gotten a law degree; (2) Whether it ever pays off, whether I ever work a day of law-related employment in my life or not, no one can say that the reason I'll never get such a job is because I couldn't hack it in law school: I stuck it out, and, if nothing else, I'd rather be depressed with a law degree than without one. “I know not the meaning of all things. Nevertheless, I know that [God] loveth His children” (1 Nephi 11:17). “Though [God] slay me, yet will I trust in Him” (Job 13:15). As Elder Joseph B. Wirthlin's wise mother told him, “Come what may, and love it.”

 

 

Edited April 29, 2017 by Kenngo1969

[HappyJackWagon]

23 hours ago, stemelbow said:

Recall with me, Elder Holland's story about following the spirit.  He and his son were driving down some dirt road, heading home.  On their way they came upon a fork in the road that they didn't expect which didn't look familiar.  They each prayed and felt like they should go down the one way which turned out to be wrong.  Elder Holland says that God wanted them to know they were going to be going down the right road when they did get going on the right road.  Something about the fastest way to know they were going the right way.  Cute story, it's been shared all over the place, as you can see a video was made about it with touching music setting a mood.  But what does it tell us?

God can direct any one of us in any direction so we can head down the wrong road for a while until we learn it to be wrong.  So we can be headed down the road that is the Church's path and learn at some point it is the wrong way.  We could have gotten married having felt so influenced by the Spirit in our decision to do so, only to see years later it was the wrong road and our kids might have to deal with the effects of our bad choice. 

Where I'm getting to is this.  If we pray and head down the road, learn its bad and try to correct it, then the Spirit has directed us so we can learn that it's was bad.  If we don't pray and head down a road learning it is good, what does that say about praying, The Spirit and us? 

We will never know if the Spirit's influence is getting us where we need to go, unless at some point he leads us in the wrong direction so we can learn for ourselves that it was wrong?  Does that idea work? 

Interested in thoughts on this very important topic. 

That Holland video is laughable.

Claiming the spirit misleads us in answering sincere prayers really is an act of throwing God and the Holy Ghost under the bus.

I suppose we could claim something similar when prophets and apostles teach us incorrectly but it hardly builds confidence in one's ability to get a reliable answer. They teach us incorrectly for our own good so that we can develop our inner voice and spiritual confidence to know they were wrong. No thanks. That's not useful.

This story seems like a blatant attempt to explain away cognitive dissonance when a prayer wasn't answered as expected. It's like when a person is blessed to be healed and then they die the next day. See, they are no longer suffering. I don't see these explanations as honest.

[Kenngo1969]

Happy Jack Wagon,

So, I didn't need to pray, ponder, and persevere when it came to law school?  All I needed was you to tell me, "Meh!  Bag it, Ken"?  Where were you, Happy Jack Wagon!   You could've saved me tens of thousands of dollars, massive uncertainty, and untold mental and emotional anguish!  Where were you, Happy Jack Wagon!  Where were you?!!  

 

P.S.: I think you're imputing several things to Elder Holland that he did not say.  Perhaps you could point to some quotes in his address which support your interpretation?

Edited April 29, 2017 by Kenngo1969

[JulieM]

52 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Happy Jack Wagon,

So, I didn't need to pray, ponder, and persevere when it came to law school?  All I needed was you to tell me, "Meh!  Bag it, Ken"?  Where were you, Happy Jack Wagon!   You could've saved me tens of thousands of dollars, massive uncertainty, and untold mental and emotional anguish!  Where were you, Happy Jack Wagon!  Where were you?!!  

 

I don't know your situation, but do you regret going to law school?  (Sincere question).

If so, this talk could apply ( if you felt you received an answer to prayer to persevere and finish).  

[bluebell]

2 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

That Holland video is laughable.

Claiming the spirit misleads us in answering sincere prayers really is an act of throwing God and the Holy Ghost under the bus.

I suppose we could claim something similar when prophets and apostles teach us incorrectly but it hardly builds confidence in one's ability to get a reliable answer. They teach us incorrectly for our own good so that we can develop our inner voice and spiritual confidence to know they were wrong. No thanks. That's not useful.

This story seems like a blatant attempt to explain away cognitive dissonance when a prayer wasn't answered as expected. It's like when a person is blessed to be healed and then they die the next day. See, they are no longer suffering. I don't see these explanations as honest.

Disagreeing with the explanation is different that accusing an apostle of dishonesty. 

Are you really accusing Elder Holland of lying?

[Maidservant]

14 hours ago, Broker said:

Maidservant-

Sounds to me like your trials and spiritual/emotional peaks and valleys have enabled you to develop a relationship with, and understanding of, the workings of the Holy Ghost that far exceeds what most of us experience.

Thanks for sharing. Very real and very inspirational.

 

Thank you, that is kind.

[Kenngo1969]

On 4/28/2017 at 2:15 PM, Duncan said:

that's a tough question, I remember going to the Temple one time and praying about it but I got no answer, either way, whereas something else I had prayed about in the Temple I got a distinct NO about but for some reason I told her I wanted to get married but was ambivalent(I didn't tell her that part!) and then i got a blessing at some point and I was todl we were meant to be together so I never felt 100% certain this is what I should do. My Bishop was all over us in YSA about dating, missions, school and in hindsight it backfired all over the place, divorces, dropping out of school and church, coming home early from missions and all this stuff. I believe that others wanted me to get married ASAP-my Mission president told me to do it today, my stake president even gave me a blessing on my return from my mission and he later gave me a calling and told i'd have this calling until I got married my Bishop as I said before, he told us (in hindsight) just ridiculous stuff and advice and I caved to all of it. So, did God want me to get married, yes, but to her and then I just don't know.

Since that time i've learned a TON about life, Church that could I have gotten any other way? I don't know. Plus, at what cost is that learning, an unbaptized son who enjoys Church but can't participate really because he doesn't have the priesthood, I don't know

Duncan,

In no way am I trying to minimize what you and your son are going through.  I recognize that, as an Eternal Bachelor , my ability to appreciate it is severely limited at best.  That said, I do think that your situation is a perfect example of how some promises are contingent upon the righteous use of agency by all involved.   This is cold comfort, I know, as it does nothing to rectify earthly consequences, but you and your son will be blessed for how you dealt the best you could with someone else's unrighteous use of agency here on earth: meanwhile, since God will not be mocked, someone else will miss out on blessings which that person could have had, if she had used her agency righteously.

Blessings to you and yours.