Comoro & Moroni

[Rajah Manchou]

I missed the thread about Comoro & Moroni posted by @Johnnie Cake over the weekend. I've done alot of reading on this topic so I hope the mods don't mind me addressing it here.

"An 1809 map showing Comora + Moroni and the Book of Mormon shows Cumorah + Moroni. What are the odds that in only 2 places would these words be found together...kind of amazing odds right?"

You're right, the odds aren't very good. So this word combo becomes the strongest indication we have that the Book of Mormon could not have been written by Joseph Smith. Here's why.

Before the 2nd century AD, very little was known about the world beyond the Arabian Sea. Around the 1st and 2nd centuries AD explorers and traders managed to go beyond India for the first time, and possibly even reaching as far as the Pacific Ocean. Reports found in Roman and Greek histories and geographies of that period tell of a large island/peninsula in the far east called Camara. A number of scholars have compared the inhabitants of this island to the Rechabites, a Biblical clan that departed Jerusalem around 600 BC. Arabic geographers called this island Qumr or Komr after the name of another Biblical clan that sailed there in boats around the time of the tower. The Qumr were said to be a blessed people, living righteous and holy lives, at least in the first few centuries of the Christian era. Over time, the name Qumr morphed into a number of different pronunciations including Kamarah, Komor, Comora, Cumara, Komoriyya etc. You can go back and see all these variations in texts and maps like the one below from Al Idrisi. The only islands that managed to retain a trace of the name Cumr are the Comoros. According to Ibn Said, this is because the Cumr people were defeated in war (5th-6th century AD) and sailed to the Comoros Islands and then on to Africa where they gave their name to Jebel Qumr, the great mountain believed to be the source of the Nile and home to Hermes Trismegistus and/or Idris (Enoch) and their golden hermetic texts. The Tibetans have a similar legend of an island called Camara, that is the permanent home of an immortal saint that buried golden texts in mountains around the world, to be revealed at the appropriate time.

What are the odds that the name of the BoM land in the 5th century AD matches the name given by Greeks, Romans and Arabs to a 5th century AD island/peninsula and later mountain? What are the odds that a military chief named Maroni was one of the key figures in the foundation of civilization on this island? What are the odds that variations of the name Cumr are common in the Book of Mormon?

The Book of Mormon got it 100% correct with details that would not have been known to Jospeh Smith, or even the most learned scholars in America in the 19th century, or even LDS scholars today.

 

Edited April 24, 2017 by Rajah Manchou

[RevTestament]

Yes, references are needed. I will PM you.

[Rajah Manchou]

6 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

Yes, references are needed. I will PM you.

Sure thing, but since this is a topic that keeps coming up I want to be sure the references are included in this thread as well. So also let me know here which ones you would like to see.

[Johnnie Cake]

12 hours ago, Rajah Manchou said:

I missed the thread about Comoro & Moroni posted by @Johnnie Cake over the weekend. I've done alot of reading on this topic so I hope the mods don't mind me addressing it here.

"An 1809 map showing Comora + Moroni and the Book of Mormon shows Cumorah + Moroni. What are the odds that in only 2 places would these words be found together...kind of amazing odds right?"

You're right, the odds aren't very good. So this word combo becomes the strongest indication we have that the Book of Mormon could not have been written by Joseph Smith. Here's why.

Before the 2nd century AD, very little was known about the world beyond the Arabian Sea. Around the 1st and 2nd centuries AD explorers and traders managed to go beyond India for the first time, and possibly even reaching as far as the Pacific Ocean. Reports found in Roman and Greek histories and geographies of that period tell of a large island/peninsula in the far east called Camara. A number of scholars have compared the inhabitants of this island to the Rechabites, a Biblical clan that departed Jerusalem around 600 BC. Arabic geographers called this island Qumr or Komr after the name of another Biblical clan that sailed there in boats around the time of the tower. The Qumr were said to be a blessed people, living righteous and holy lives, at least in the first few centuries of the Christian era. Over time, the name Qumr morphed into a number of different pronunciations including Kamarah, Komor, Comora, Cumara, Komoriyya etc. You can go back and see all these variations in texts and maps like the one below from Al Idrisi. The only islands that managed to retain a trace of the name Cumr are the Comoros. According to Ibn Said, this is because the Cumr people were defeated in war (5th-6th century AD) and sailed to the Comoros Islands and then on to Africa where they gave their name to Jebel Qumr, the great mountain believed to be the source of the Nile and home to Hermes Trismegistus and/or Idris (Enoch) and their golden hermetic texts. The Tibetans have a similar legend of an island called Camara, that is the permanent home of an immortal saint that buried golden texts in mountains around the world, to be revealed at the appropriate time.

What are the odds that the name of the BoM land in the 5th century AD matches the name given by Greeks, Romans and Arabs to a 5th century AD island/peninsula and later mountain? What are the odds that a military chief named Maroni was one of the key figures in the foundation of civilization on this island? What are the odds that variations of the name Cumr are common in the Book of Mormon?

The Book of Mormon got it 100% correct with details that would not have been known to Jospeh Smith, or even the most learned scholars in America in the 19th century, or even LDS scholars today.

 

You kind of lost me when you included the myth of the Tower of Babel...but I'll over look that...I too would be interested in the source of this scholarship.  My initial reaction is that it comes from Rodney Meldrum

[Rajah Manchou]

21 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

You kind of lost me when you included the myth of the Tower of Babel...but I'll over look that...I too would be interested in the source of this scholarship.  My initial reaction is that it comes from Rodney Meldrum

I'll try to put together some references, but you have me completely baffled by your suggestion that Meldrum is the source of anything posted above. That would be just about as far from the source of this scholarship as one could get.
 

[Maestrophil]

Indeed.  Fascinating stuff.  Please do share resources.

[Johnnie Cake]

18 minutes ago, Rajah Manchou said:

I'll try to put together some references, but you have me completely baffled by your suggestion that Meldrum is the source of anything posted above. That would be just about as far from the source of this scholarship as one could get.
 

sorry it was a joke (which understandably didn't translate)...I'm looking forward to reading what you have

[clarkgoble]

Quote

the great mountain believed to be the source of the Nile and home to Hermes Trismegistus and/or Idris (Enoch) and their golden hermetic texts

This is a fairly late tradition originating in the Renaissance as I recall. Recall that the main hermetic texts are from around 3rd or 4th century AD. Although most in the renaissance accepted the fantastic origin that had grown up around them and attributed to them an ancient date - usually before Moses. In 17th  century Casaubon noted that Christianity, gnosticism and Judaism didn't depend upon hermetic texts but the inverse. Even after the dating and influence became known some still kept to the fantastic legends - especially within masonry which had it's own mythic origins.

So unfortunately this is part of the hermetic tradition which at this point I think most assume influenced Joseph. 

That said I find the map theory pretty implausible. First because I doubt Joseph encountered any of these things but also because I think the sounds are coincidental. (And as other noted in the other thread spelt differently)

Edited April 24, 2017 by clarkgoble
Fixed a couple of typos

[Rajah Manchou]

38 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

sorry it was a joke (which understandably didn't translate)...I'm looking forward to reading what you have

Now that I read it with a less serious narrative voice in my head, I hear the good humor in it. :) 

I'll post the references, but you might have to bear with me as I add working links to them. Right now I'll I have are screenshots of Google Books in a very disorganized format. But it should be a good start.

[cinepro]

16 hours ago, Rajah Manchou said:

Sure thing, but since this is a topic that keeps coming up I want to be sure the references are included in this thread as well. So also let me know here which ones you would like to see.

What do you mean "which ones you would like to see"?  

If you're asking which of your claims should be backed up with actual sources, and which we're willing to just accept because you posted it on an internet message board, I would hope the answer would be obvious.

But in case it isn't obvious, the answer is "We want to see the sources for each of your claims."

Edited April 24, 2017 by cinepro

[cinepro]

And just so we can keep track:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Before the 2nd century AD, very little was known about the world beyond the Arabian Sea. Around the 1st and 2nd centuries AD explorers and traders managed to go beyond India for the first time, and possibly even reaching as far as the Pacific Ocean. Reports found in Roman and Greek histories and geographies of that period tell of a large island/peninsula in the far east called Camara.

Which histories and geographies tell us that?

 

 A number of scholars have compared the inhabitants of this island to the Rechabites, a Biblical clan that departed Jerusalem around 600 BC.

Who are these scholars, and where did they make this comparison?

 

Arabic geographers called this island Qumr or Komr after the name of another Biblical clan that sailed there in boats around the time of the tower.

Which Arabic geographers did this, and where did they do it?

 

The Qumr were said to be a blessed people, living righteous and holy lives, at least in the first few centuries of the Christian era.

Who said this?

 

 Over time, the name Qumr morphed into a number of different pronunciations including Kamarah, Komor, Comora, Cumara, Komoriyya etc. You can go back and see all these variations in texts and maps like the one below from Al Idrisi.

Where can we find the different versions of these pronunciations?

 

The only islands that managed to retain a trace of the name Cumr are the Comoros.

Which other islands had this trace but lost it?

 

According to Ibn Said, this is because the Cumr people were defeated in war (5th-6th century AD) and sailed to the Comoros Islands and then on to Africa where they gave their name to Jebel Qumr, the great mountain believed to be the source of the Nile and home to Hermes Trismegistus and/or Idris (Enoch) and their golden hermetic texts.

 

When and where did Ibn Said say this?

 

The Tibetans have a similar legend of an island called Camara, that is the permanent home of an immortal saint that buried golden texts in mountains around the world, to be revealed at the appropriate time.

Where is this Tibetan legend recorded?  What does it say exactly?

What are the odds that the name of the BoM land in the 5th century AD matches the name given by Greeks, Romans and Arabs to a 5th century AD island/peninsula and later mountain? What are the odds that a military chief named Maroni was one of the key figures in the foundation of civilization on this island? What are the odds that variations of the name Cumr are common in the Book of Mormon?

 

There are actually odds for this.  Have you figured them out?  Or do you really not know, and just expect people to believe that something that is unlikely must automatically have happened according to your theory because it is unlikely?  Can you tell us what the odds actually are, and why an event with such odds is so unlikely that it should be considered proof that an alternate explanation including angels and numerous other supernatural claims is the preferred explanation from a rational standpoint?  Because before you ever use the phrase "what are the odds" in an argument, I highly recommend reading this book.

The Book of Mormon got it 100% correct with details that would not have been known to Jospeh Smith, or even the most learned scholars in America in the 19th century, or even LDS scholars today.

You've certainly created a narrative where that would be the case.  It will be interesting to see if the evidence supports your version.

 

 

Edited April 24, 2017 by cinepro

[cinepro]

18 hours ago, Rajah Manchou said:

A number of scholars have compared the inhabitants of this island to the Rechabites, a Biblical clan that departed Jerusalem around 600 BC. Arabic geographers called this island Qumr or Komr after the name of another Biblical clan that sailed there in boats around the time of the tower. 

On this point, it appears that there could be an alternate explanation for the name:

 

Quote

Identification. Comorian residents call their Country Masiwa , "the islands," or refer to the individual name of each island. Zisiwa za Komor is a translation of the French words for the country. "Comoro" comes from the Arabic qumr , "the moon" or qamar "whiteness".

http://www.everyculture.com/Bo-Co/Comoros.html

So I think we really need a reference for a name that is linked to "another Biblical clan that sailed there in boats around the time of the tower."

[pogi]

2 hours ago, cinepro said:

There are actually odds for this.  Have you figured them out?  Or do you really not know, and just expect people to believe that something that is unlikely must automatically have happened according to your theory because it is unlikely?  Can you tell us what the odds actually are, and why an event with such odds is so unlikely that it should be considered proof that an alternate explanation including angels and numerous other supernatural claims is the preferred explanation from a rational standpoint?  Because before you ever use the phrase "what are the odds" in an argument, I highly recommend reading this book.

Take notes Johnnie Cake, this applies to you too...it goes both ways!

[Johnnie Cake]

7 minutes ago, pogi said:

Take notes Johnnie Cake, this applies to you too...it goes both ways!

Yup...after all I did ask the question..."what are the odds?"  But I never drew a conclusion, I merely asked the question...seeking an answer...so while I am happy to be held to the same standard as anyone on this board...I never drew a conclusion but merely asked the question.  I look forward to Rajah Manchou's reply to Cinepro's questions

[Rajah Manchou]

4 hours ago, cinepro said:

But in case it isn't obvious, the answer is "We want to see the sources for each of your claims."

I should have said "what ones, out of those that are already posted on this internet message board, would you like to see?" This topic resurfaces every so often, and the responses are already here somewhere and other places. But I suspect most people never click through, so I didn't bother this time. If you're willing to put in time to read the links, I'm happy to put in the time to post them. Better do one at a time though, otherwise this post will become impossible.

6 hours ago, cinepro said:

Before the 2nd century AD, very little was known about the world beyond the Arabian Sea. Around the 1st and 2nd centuries AD explorers and traders managed to go beyond India for the first time, and possibly even reaching as far as the Pacific Ocean. Reports found in Roman and Greek histories and geographies of that period tell of a large island/peninsula in the far east called Camara.

Which histories and geographies tell us that?

I don't think these have been translated into English yet, so I only have secondary sources:

Expositio toitus mundi et gentium
Totius Orbis Descriptio
Hodoiporia apo Edem tou Paradisou

I have others, but they are disorganized. Some are here if you don't mind clutter.

Variations of the toponym Camara/Kamara are also found in Ptolemy's geography dating to the 2nd century. He places it in East India, but later Ptolemaic maps shifted it (or versions of it) around in the Indian Ocean, usually somewhere between the island of Taprobane (Sri Lanka) and the Golden Peninsula. Here are two examples: Cumara and Gumara. Kamara becomes the larger and more defined KMR of the Arab geographers.

[Rajah Manchou]

5 hours ago, cinepro said:

On this point, it appears that there could be an alternate explanation for the name:

Identification. Comorian residents call their Country Masiwa , "the islands," or refer to the individual name of each island. Zisiwa za Komor is a translation of the French words for the country. "Comoro" comes from the Arabic qumr , "the moon" or qamar "whiteness".

http://www.everyculture.com/Bo-Co/Comoros.html

So I think we really need a reference for a name that is linked to "another Biblical clan that sailed there in boats around the time of the tower."

Many travel websites claim that Comoros comes from Arabic for moon or whiteness. But the earliest Arabic references to it specifically caution against that identification:

"Ibn Sa’id warns explicitly against the pronunciation with a fatha (qamar) to which he prefers a form with (Qumr, Qumar), but this evidently with the intention of justifying his very interesting theory about the inner Asiatic people (Khmer) who after having been ousted from Central Asia went to Indo-China, then colonized the island Qumr (Madagascar) and finally passed over to the continent and occupied the slopes of the Jabal-al-Qmr" (Ferrand, o.l., p. 317)

The Greeks and Romans were writing about Kamara and the Camarini two centuries before humans even arrived in the Comoros islands and seven centuries before Arabic writers wrote about it.

As for the Biblical clan that sailed there in boats.

https://www.evernote.com/l/AAg8sGn1M4pCNrUFJNBkV8CEHmgHYvJvQKo

(sorry much of this research is in French, I've tried to translate where possible)

[Johnnie Cake]

17 minutes ago, Rajah Manchou said:

I should have said "what ones, out of those that are already posted on this internet message board, would you like to see?" This topic resurfaces every so often, and the responses are already here somewhere and other places. But I suspect most people never click through, so I didn't bother this time. If you're willing to put in time to read the links, I'm happy to put in the time to post them. Better do one at a time though, otherwise this post will become impossible.

I don't think these have been translated into English yet, so I only have secondary sources:

Expositio toitus mundi et gentium
Totius Orbis Descriptio
Hodoiporia apo Edem tou Paradisou

I have others, but they are disorganized. Some are here if you don't mind clutter.

Variations of the toponym Camara/Kamara are also found in Ptolemy's geography dating to the 2nd century. He places it in East India, but later Ptolemaic maps shifted it (or versions of it) around in the Indian Ocean, usually somewhere between the island of Taprobane (Sri Lanka) and the Golden Peninsula. Here are two examples: Cumara and Gumara. Kamara becomes the larger and more defined KMR of the Arab geographers.

So I see references to a people called the camerines how do these fabled people get us to comora island?

[Johnnie Cake]

37 minutes ago, Rajah Manchou said:

Many travel websites claim that Comoros comes from Arabic for moon or whiteness. But the earliest Arabic references to it specifically caution against that identification:

"Ibn Sa’id warns explicitly against the pronunciation with a fatha (qamar) to which he prefers a form with (Qumr, Qumar), but this evidently with the intention of justifying his very interesting theory about the inner Asiatic people (Khmer) who after having been ousted from Central Asia went to Indo-China, then colonized the island Qumr (Madagascar) and finally passed over to the continent and occupied the slopes of the Jabal-al-Qmr" (Ferrand, o.l., p. 317)

The Greeks and Romans were writing about Kamara and the Camarini two centuries before humans even arrived in the Comoros islands and seven centuries before Arabic writers wrote about it.

As for the Biblical clan that sailed there in boats.

https://www.evernote.com/l/AAg8sGn1M4pCNrUFJNBkV8CEHmgHYvJvQKo

(sorry much of this research is in French, I've tried to translate where possible)

Does this theory of yours presuppose a belief in Noah and a universal flood? I personally would find it difficult to believe anything that requires belief in Japheth as the father of the Asian races

Edited April 25, 2017 by Johnnie Cake

[cinepro]

1 hour ago, Rajah Manchou said:

I should have said "what ones, out of those that are already posted on this internet message board, would you like to see?" This topic resurfaces every so often, and the responses are already here somewhere and other places. But I suspect most people never click through, so I didn't bother this time. If you're willing to put in time to read the links, I'm happy to put in the time to post them. Better do one at a time though, otherwise this post will become impossible.

I don't think these have been translated into English yet, so I only have secondary sources:

Expositio toitus mundi et gentium
Totius Orbis Descriptio
Hodoiporia apo Edem tou Paradisou

I have others, but they are disorganized. Some are here if you don't mind clutter.

Variations of the toponym Camara/Kamara are also found in Ptolemy's geography dating to the 2nd century. He places it in East India, but later Ptolemaic maps shifted it (or versions of it) around in the Indian Ocean, usually somewhere between the island of Taprobane (Sri Lanka) and the Golden Peninsula. Here are two examples: Cumara and Gumara. Kamara becomes the larger and more defined KMR of the Arab geographers.

None of those sources referenced a "peninsula or island" called "Camara" that I could find.  They seem to refer to a part of the land that they thought was the Garden of Eden.  I think your arguments are a little muddled, and your references are a mess.

 

Let's focus this a little.  I think the most interesting claim you're making is this:

Quote

The Tibetans have a similar legend of an island called Camara, that is the permanent home of an immortal saint that buried golden texts in mountains around the world, to be revealed at the appropriate time.

Can you provide a reference that backs that up?

 

[Rajah Manchou]

26 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

So I see references to a people called the camerines how do these fabled people get us to comora island?

First you have to locate the original Comora (easier to use KMR from here on) Island. Since the Indian and Pacific Oceans weren't fully explored before de Gama and Magellan there is disagreement about KMR's identification. Some Arabic geographers placed it far to the east in the Pacific, others identified in the southwest near Africa. For many centuries it was a sort of mystery, an island inhabited by the Blessed Ones, but not really corresponding to any particular landmass. I won't speculate on the location here.

But to answer your question. Ibn Said's claim in the 13th century CE was that the KMR people, who were originally from the Middle East, inhabited a peninsula/island in the far east they called KMR. There was a conflict there, some remained in the city they called Komoriyya and others fled to a new KMR Island, and points further west. How far west did these fabled ones go? Most propose Madagascar and the Comoros Islands. 

[Rajah Manchou]

29 minutes ago, cinepro said:

None of those sources referenced a "peninsula or island" called "Camara" that I could find.  They seem to refer to a part of the land that they thought was the Garden of Eden.  I think your arguments are a little muddled, and your references are a mess.

Let's focus this a little.  I think the most interesting claim you're making is this:

The Tibetans have a similar legend of an island called Camara, that is the permanent home of an immortal saint that buried golden texts in mountains around the world, to be revealed at the ap

Can you provide a reference that backs that up?

Camara Dvipa (Camara Island) is the western sub-continent, not only in Tibetan Buddhist tradition but also Indian tradition. 

Vajrayana Buddhists claim this island is the home to Padmasambhava, the Tibetan saint who spent lifetimes burying/hiding treasure texts to be revealed by treasure finders. After he completed his work, he returned to Camara Island, somewhere in the western subcontinent. Sources for screengrabs below are here here and here.

Note the similarities between the Arabic texts about Hermes/Idris in a Copper Palace on Jebel Qamar and Padmasambhava in a Copper Palace on Camara.

Edited April 25, 2017 by Rajah Manchou

[Rajah Manchou]

1 hour ago, Johnnie Cake said:

Does this theory of yours presuppose a belief in Noah and a universal flood? I personally would find it difficult to believe anything that requires belief in Japheth as the father of the Asian races

I personally don't presuppose a belief in Noah and a universal flood. I also don't believe Japheth was the literal father of the Asian (or American) races. I'm simply presenting a case that Comoro + Moroni is a more interesting combo than Joseph Smith finding it on Captain Kidd's treasure map, or whatever that argument is.

[cinepro]

1 hour ago, Rajah Manchou said:

Camara Dvipa (Camara Island) is the western sub-continent, not only in Tibetan Buddhist tradition but also Indian tradition. 

Vajrayana Buddhists claim this island is the home to Padmasambhava, the Tibetan saint who spent lifetimes burying/hiding treasure texts to be revealed by treasure finders. After he completed his work, he returned to Camara Island, somewhere in the western subcontinent. Sources for screengrabs below are here here and here.

Note the similarities between the Arabic texts about Hermes/Idris in a Copper Palace on Jebel Qamar and Padmasambhava in a Copper Palace on Camara.

Indeed,

 

Quote

Padmasambhava left with Mandarava, and took to Maratika Cave^[15] in Nepal to practice secret tantric consort rituals. They had a vision of buddha Amitāyus and achieved what is called the "phowa rainbow body,"^{[note 2]} a very rare type of spiritual realization. ^{[note 3]} Both Padmasambhava and one of his consorts, Mandarava, are still believed to be alive and active in this rainbow body form by their followers. She and Padmasambhava's other main consort, Yeshe Tsogyal, who reputedly hid his numerous termas in Tibet for later discovery, reached Buddhahood. Many thangkas and paintings show Padmasambhava in between them, with Mandarava on his right and Yeshe Tsogyal on his left.^[16]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Padmasambhava

Who doesn't read that and think "How could Joseph Smith have known...?"  It's like reading something straight out of the Book of Mormon.

 

Tell me Rajah, are you also impressed by the stories of Quetzalcoatl in the New World and their theorized connection to the Book of Mormon?

[Rajah Manchou]

15 minutes ago, cinepro said:

Who doesn't read that and think "How could Joseph Smith have known...?"  It's like reading something straight out of the Book of Mormon.

Haha, perhaps the Rainbow Body Discourse was one of those Joseph kept in the bag.

PS, did you just bait me? 

47 minutes ago, cinepro said:

Tell me Rajah, are you also impressed by the stories of Quetzalcoatl in the New World and their theorized connection to the Book of Mormon?

I know very little about Quetzalcoatl. It does remind me of the naga king traditions of Asia, but I don't know how it could be connected to the Book of Mormon. I'm not convinced the geography, toponyms and ethnonyms of the Book of Mormon have anything to do with the New World. I've always been open to that, but I haven't yet seen anything convincing. 

[Rajah Manchou]

As much as I'd like to discuss the similarities between Joseph Smith's polygamy and Padmasambhava's rainbow-bodied consorts, its not really an argument I am making. So I'll try to get through these CFRs.

17 hours ago, cinepro said:

A number of scholars have compared the inhabitants of this island to the Rechabites, a Biblical clan that departed Jerusalem around
600 BC.

Who are these scholars, and where did they make this comparison?

A southeast Asia expert named Vladimir Braginsky is the best resource for this comparison. He has compiled the Greek and Roman accounts of the Indian Ocean and has come to the conclusion that KMR/QMR is the home of the 'Blessed Ones' in Judeo-Christian lore. 'Blessed Ones' is a name that applies to both the Camarini and the Rechabites. Its impossible to know with certainty, but the Camarini and the Rechabites appear to be the same people living in the same place at the same time.

Two Eastern Christian Sources on Medieval Nusantara
Images of Nusantara in Russian Literature

Here's one reference from Braginsky to support the claim that the 'Blessed Ones' called the Camarini dwell in a place called KMR/QMR. And another from the same article to support the claim that the 'Blessed Ones' called the Rechabites were believed to be located in the same region on an island called Rahma. Interesting in that the BoM refers to Cumorah and Ramah as being different names for the same place.

Edited April 25, 2017 by Rajah Manchou