Atheist Mormon Posted September 9, 2016 Posted September 9, 2016 16 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: See my “Book of Mormon Event Structure: The Ancient Near East,” Journal of Book of Mormon Studies, 5/2 (1996):98-147. Online at http://publications.maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/fullscreen/?pub=1391&index=5 . and my “Epistolary Form in the Book of Mormon,” FARMS Review, 22/2 (2010), 125-135, online at http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/review/?vol=22&num=2&id=807 . and my “The Preposterous Book of Mormon: A Singular Advantage,” lecture, August 8, 2014, at the annual FAIRMORMON Conference, Provo, Utah, online at http://www.fairmormon.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/PREPOSTEROUS-BOOK-OF-MORMON.pdf , Robert, I don't want to appear disrespectful of your research about this chronological study but over 80/90% of the events you are writing are nothing but conjectures....I've visited some Egyptian museums, none of them give me this names (except some basic ones) and chronology. Here in Houston, we have a pretty good Egyptian display and their Chronology display has nothing that can support of yours. Even they are displaying the name of Moses halfheartedly (out of obligation), even Moses has next to nothing supportive to display. Again I don't mean to trivialize your work but you & your colleagues come short of displaying any type of evidence. And this criticism is by no means directed to BoM, Bible is equally culpable to lack any type of evidences we can verify historical facts.
Rajah Manchou Posted September 9, 2016 Author Posted September 9, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said: Madagascar was originally peopled by Indonesians (http://bmcgenomics.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12864-015-1394-7 ), and the same is likely true of the Camoros islands. As for the name, Camara, it comes from Arabic qamara "crescent; moonlight,” qamar “moon,” which are the source for Arabic Juzur al-Qumur “Islands of the Moon” (Arabic al-Qumuri), the Camoros Islands. There's good evidence to support the argument that Camara doesn't come from Arabic (qamar) for moon. Its more likely that it came from Qmar, the dominant ethnic group in Southeast Asia, a name that lives on in the Khmer of Cambodia. The ethnonym Qmar existed before Arabic traders arrived in Southeast Asia. This is evident in Greek and Roman texts (Expositio Totius Mundi et Gentium) dating back to the 4th century that refer to those that inhabited the islands in the east as the Camarini. Judeo-Christian texts call them Rahmans and Rechabites. The Book of Mormon calls them Lehites. It is a significant evidence that the Book of Mormon author(s) were spot on with the usage of the toponym Camorah to refer to a sacred mountain on an island of the sea. These links explain it better than I can:https://cloudup.com/cFnJq9AM1wxhttps://cloudup.com/c5FVSKAu7ewhttps://cloudup.com/ckHKVFTWUpF "Ibn Sa’id warns explicitly against the pronunciation with a fatha (qamar) to which he prefers a form with (Qumr, Qumar), but this evidently with the intention of justifying his very interesting theory about the inner Asiatic people (Khmer) who after having been ousted from Central Asia went to Indo-China, then colonized the island Qumr (Madagascar) and finally passed over to the continent and occupied the slopes of the Jabal-al-Qmr" (Ferrand, o.l., p. 317) Edited September 9, 2016 by Rajah Manchou 1
SteveO Posted September 9, 2016 Posted September 9, 2016 So I actually ran this by my brother last night, and the only thing he responded with--and actually something I never even considered while reading this thread--was, "how did the golden plates get to upstate New York then?" I could buy the theory that after the battle at cumorah, the descendants dispersed into the Pacific Islands and eventually even the American contenants. The Book of Mormon makes it pretty clear these people were constantly pushing the boundaries of their seafaring capabilities. I could see how those descendants would carry with them the oral traditions, especially of Christ's visit, long afterwards and continued passing them on long after their arrival in the American continents. I just don't know how you get Moroni there. 1
SteveO Posted September 9, 2016 Posted September 9, 2016 (edited) Unless Moroni pulled a Kon-Tiki... 😳 Edited September 9, 2016 by SteveO 2
Rajah Manchou Posted September 9, 2016 Author Posted September 9, 2016 (edited) 46 minutes ago, SteveO said: So I actually ran this by my brother last night, and the only thing he responded with--and actually something I never even considered while reading this thread--was, "how did the golden plates get to upstate New York then?" I could buy the theory that after the battle at cumorah, the descendants dispersed into the Pacific Islands and eventually even the American contenants. The Book of Mormon makes it pretty clear these people were constantly pushing the boundaries of their seafaring capabilities. I could see how those descendants would carry with them the oral traditions, especially of Christ's visit, long afterwards and continued passing them on long after their arrival in the American continents. I just don't know how you get Moroni there. The Kayin of Burma have a very active tradition that pervades their culture even today. As their father was dying he called his 7 sons together for final blessings, the oldest brother failed, and the golden book containing all the wisdom of the Father God Y'wa was instead given to the youngest brother (said to be of fair complexion) who took the book and sailed to the west. He will return one day with the book and usher in a new era of prosperity. That could be one explanation. Moroni went by boat to the west, via the Comoros along with the other Austronesians that were migrating to Madagascar and beyond. Polynesian DNA has been found in South America, likely predating Columbus. So this is not an impossible voyage.http://www.nature.com/news/dna-study-links-indigenous-brazilians-to-polynesians-1.12710 One interesting thing to note is that Kayin means Kenite in Hebrew. I suppose it is possible that the Lehites (and Kayin of Burma) are in some way related to the Kenites of southern Arabia. The Kayin themselves claim to have come from the west and they were led to the east by Y'wa. If you're interested @kckern wrote an excellent series of posts on this a few years back. He was writing about Ralph Olsen's Malay Model, which is somewhat different from the one I've been discussing. But there is some great info there:http://www.wheatandtares.org/5314/the-legend-of-the-lost-book-of-gold-part-1-of-4/ Edited September 9, 2016 by Rajah Manchou Brain misspelled Y'wa in a misleading way. Oops. 1
SteveO Posted September 9, 2016 Posted September 9, 2016 (edited) 14 minutes ago, Rajah Manchou said: The Kayin of Burma have a very active tradition that pervades their culture even today. As their father was dying he called his 7 sons together for final blessings, the oldest brother failed, and the golden book containing all the wisdom of the Father God was instead given to the youngest brother (said to be of fair complexion) who took the book and sailed to the west. He will return one day return with the book and usher in a new era of prosperity. That could be one explanation. Moroni went by boat to the west, via the Comoros along with the other Austronesians that were migrating to Madagascar and beyond. Malagasy DNA has been found in South America, likely predating Columbus. So this is not an impossible voyage.http://www.nature.com/news/dna-study-links-indigenous-brazilians-to-polynesians-1.12710 One interesting thing to note is that Kayin means Kenite in Hebrew. I suppose it is possible that the Lehites (and Kayin of Burma) are in some way related to the Kenites of southern Arabia. The Kayin themselves claim to have come from the west and they were led to the east by their Father God YWH. Wow. You planning on writing a comprehensive paper on all this??? Would be very interesting. Edit: usually I write via my phone, and I just happened to be on a computer this morning. I just now saw your presentation link in the quote section. Will have a look. Edited September 9, 2016 by SteveO
Rajah Manchou Posted September 9, 2016 Author Posted September 9, 2016 13 minutes ago, SteveO said: You planning on writing a comprehensive paper on all this??? Would be very interesting. No plans really. Was hoping to start here and get some feedback first. But again, KC Kern already has some good details up online. Here's his full series: http://www.wheatandtares.org/5314/the-legend-of-the-lost-book-of-gold-part-1-of-4/ http://www.wheatandtares.org/5317/the-legend-of-the-lost-book-of-gold-part-2-of-4/ http://www.wheatandtares.org/5318/the-legend-of-the-lost-book-of-gold-part-3-of-4/ http://www.wheatandtares.org/5319/the-legend-of-the-lost-book-of-gold-part-4-of-4/ One thing he discusses in Part 3 provides a good response to one of your earlier questions about the statement made by Moroni regarding "this continent".
Rajah Manchou Posted September 9, 2016 Author Posted September 9, 2016 (edited) 2 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: ...or Greek-Coptic kamare “vaulted chamber.” Greek-Coptic for "vaulted chamber" is interesting“The word kun-lun has had an interesting history. Used early on as the name of the fabulous mountains in the West…the word originally seems to mean the round vault of the sky”“Sometimes this toponym (Qumr) was vocalized as qamar = moon, but this I think may have originated as a rationalization of an unfamiliar word, which was then adopted by Ptolemy in his toponym “Mountain of the moon”…Qumr was an African ethnonym of undetermined linguistic affiliation which happened to be closely similar to a Southeast Asian ethnikon that the Chinese had for long transcribed as kun-lun.” (source) kamare = vaulted chamber qumr = kunlun kunlun = round vault of the sky It seems a stretch at first glance but not so much when we consider that Greek geographers in Alexandria like Cosmas Indicopleustes (6th century) depicted the earth as being within a vaulted chamber. Edited September 9, 2016 by Rajah Manchou
notHagoth7 Posted September 9, 2016 Posted September 9, 2016 1 hour ago, Rajah Manchou said: ...and the golden book containing all the wisdom of the Father God Y'wa was instead given to the youngest brother (said to be of fair complexion) who took the book and sailed to the west.... ?? To the west?
Rajah Manchou Posted September 9, 2016 Author Posted September 9, 2016 7 minutes ago, notHagoth7 said: ?? To the west? That's the most common version of the story. The younger brother in Kayin lore is almost always associated with Americans and Europeans.
SteveO Posted September 9, 2016 Posted September 9, 2016 So one of the Comoros islands is named "Moroni"...
RevTestament Posted September 9, 2016 Posted September 9, 2016 49 minutes ago, SteveO said: So one of the Comoros islands is named "Moroni"... Technically, it would be Comoro Islands, and no. The Islands appeared on Arabic maps as 'al Qmr.' The first European maps to show them did show a Meroni on one of the islands. It seems Moroni came later as a place of a new sultanate on the big Island, which has a very active volcano. The Arabians are Semitic so it seems they applied a Semitic pronunciation to the ancient dialect containing the root "moro" or fire and "ni" or place for place of fire. 3
Robert F. Smith Posted September 9, 2016 Posted September 9, 2016 1 hour ago, RevTestament said: Technically, it would be Comoro Islands, and no. The Islands appeared on Arabic maps as 'al Qmr.' The first European maps to show them did show a Meroni on one of the islands. It seems Moroni came later as a place of a new sultanate on the big Island, which has a very active volcano. The Arabians are Semitic so it seems they applied a Semitic pronunciation to the ancient dialect containing the root "moro" or fire and "ni" or place for place of fire. Moroni, the capital city of the Comoros, is Muruni “In the Heart of the Fire,” referring to nearby volcano Mount Karthala. 2
Robert F. Smith Posted September 9, 2016 Posted September 9, 2016 3 hours ago, Rajah Manchou said: No plans really. Was hoping to start here and get some feedback first. But again, KC Kern already has some good details up online. Here's his full series: http://www.wheatandtares.org/5314/the-legend-of-the-lost-book-of-gold-part-1-of-4/ http://www.wheatandtares.org/5317/the-legend-of-the-lost-book-of-gold-part-2-of-4/ http://www.wheatandtares.org/5318/the-legend-of-the-lost-book-of-gold-part-3-of-4/ http://www.wheatandtares.org/5319/the-legend-of-the-lost-book-of-gold-part-4-of-4/ One thing he discusses in Part 3 provides a good response to one of your earlier questions about the statement made by Moroni regarding "this continent". Also see his website: http://bookofmormononline.net/#/home . He has his baccalaureate from BYU, and his masters from MIT. 1
Robert F. Smith Posted September 9, 2016 Posted September 9, 2016 5 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said: Robert, I don't want to appear disrespectful of your research about this chronological study but over 80/90% of the events you are writing are nothing but conjectures....I've visited some Egyptian museums, none of them give me this names (except some basic ones) and chronology. Here in Houston, we have a pretty good Egyptian display and their Chronology display has nothing that can support of yours. I can't speak to the nature of your museum in Houston, and am not sure what you consider "conjecture" in my "Book of Mormon Event Structure" paper, but I based everything I said on standard ancient Near Eastern scholarship and cited my sources in great detail -- many of the chronological synchronisms based on astronomically determined, absolute dates, which are a matter of consensus among ANE scholars. I cannot be responsible for the Houston museum's failure to have a comprehensive display based modern scholarship, and I would be happy to discuss any particular issue in my presentation which you find dubious, strange, or unjustified. I can assure you, that you or your museum are in error -- or are simply not comprehensive. You may want to have a look at my own museum study, “Ramses II BYU Exhibit: Supplementary Comments on the Artifacts,” FARMS Preliminary Report, SMI-86 (Provo: FARMS, 1986); 30pp. Online at https://www.scribd.com/doc/54423164/Ramses-II-BYU-Exhibit-Supplementary-Comments-on-the-Artifacts-FARMS-Preliminary-Report-SMI-86-Provo-FARMS-1986 , or at http://publications.mi.byu.edu/publications/PreliminaryReports/Set 3/Prelim Rep/Smith, Ramses II BYU Exhibit, 1986.pdf . 5 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said: Even they are displaying the name of Moses halfheartedly (out of obligation), even Moses has next to nothing supportive to display. Again I don't mean to trivialize your work but you & your colleagues come short of displaying any type of evidence. And this criticism is by no means directed to BoM, Bible is equally culpable to lack any type of evidences we can verify historical facts. Once again, I have rested my conclusions on the work of the non-Mormon scholars who are fully cited in the footnotes. My colleagues are not responsible for any of it. As to Moses and the Bible, I am not sure what problem(s) you see, but you may want to examine my own study, “Moses Our Teacher (Moshe Rabbenu),” 2010, version 3, online at https://www.scribd.com/doc/51104640/Moses-Our-Teacher-Moshe-Rabbenu . It is based on standard, secular scholarship. 1
notHagoth7 Posted September 9, 2016 Posted September 9, 2016 3 hours ago, RevTestament said: ...it seems they applied a Semitic pronunciation to the ancient dialect containing the root "moro" or fire and "ni" or place for place of fire. Are there good online sources for an initial glimpse as to what Semitic cognates might mean? 1
RevTestament Posted September 9, 2016 Posted September 9, 2016 16 minutes ago, notHagoth7 said: Are there good online sources for an initial glimpse as to what Semitic cognates might mean? Well, those are based upon the local Swahili See The Comorian-English Dictionary by Harriet Oppenheimer (not online) I am not an expert in Semitic languages (I know a tiny bit of Hebrew) but I am sure someone can help you with that 1
Rajah Manchou Posted September 10, 2016 Author Posted September 10, 2016 (edited) 4 hours ago, notHagoth7 said: Are there good online sources for an initial glimpse as to what Semitic cognates might mean? I'm not sure if Robert and RT missed it above, but there are reasons to believe Moroni does not come from the Comorian word for "place of fire". Comoro is also said by numerous websites to mean "place of fire" with many websites claiming this comes from the Swahili locative 'ko-' and the word 'moro' which means "the place of fire"...but this is a false etymology. It comes from the Southeast Asia word Qumr as noted in the links above. I believe the same confusion comes with the etymology of Moroni. Numerous M-R-N toponyms are found across the Indian Ocean. There are dozens but I did list a few above that are on older maps: Here, Here, Here, and Here. Quote There's an old tribe called Mron in the north of the peninsula, a Mulek and a Mro. I believe the root name Moron also lives on in the present name for Burma, which is Myanmar. The Burmese pronounce their Rs as Ys. So Myanmar is spelled Mranmar, the land of Mran. And I've already mentioned the name of the founder of the first kingdom (who is said to have come by boat from the Middle East) on the peninsula being Marong or Maroni. Its not possible that all these moro and moron names are based on a Swahili word for "fire" (which is actually "moto") as the Bantus never sailed beyond Madagascar. And these words were likely in existence long before the Bantus even got in the water, and before Comorian was a dialect. It is possible that the Swahili speakers came to a place already called Moro or Morona by the Austronesians who first settled the island. This seems highly likely as one tribe is called the Antemoro or Antemorona. I'm 100% certain these Austronesians didn't take their name from the Comorian word for "fire". Wouldn't it be more likely that Moroni is taken from the Antemorona and not from a dialect that formed after the arrival of the Malay-speaking Semitic Antemorona tribe in the Comoros? Edited September 10, 2016 by Rajah Manchou
Rajah Manchou Posted September 10, 2016 Author Posted September 10, 2016 Comoros were first settled by Malay speaking Austronesians, not by Swahili speakers or Arab traders. This was confirmed just a few months ago after researchers found grains from southeast Asia, not from Africa."The team were able to identify the species of nearly 2,500 ancient plant remains obtained from their excavations at 18 ancient settlement sites in Madagascar, on neighbouring islands and on the eastern African coast. They examined residues obtained from sediments in the archaeological layers, using a system of sieves and water...The data suggested an introduction of these crops, both to Madagascar and the neighbouring Comoros Islands, by the 8th and 10th century." The analyses also suggest that Southeast Asians colonised not only Madagascar but also the nearby islands of the Comoros, because again the crops that grew there were dominated by the same Asian species. By contrast, crops identified on the eastern African coast and near coastal islands like Mafia and Zanzibar were mainly African species like sorghum, pearl millet and baobab.Commenting on the Southeast Asian influence in the Comoros, study lead author Dr Alison Crowther, from the University of Queensland, Australia, said: "This took us by surprise. After all, people in the Comoros speak African languages and they don't look like they have Southeast Asian ancestry in the way that populations on Madagascar do. What was amazing to us was the stark contrast that emerged between the crops on the Eastern African coast and the offshore islands versus those on Madagascar, but also the Comoros."Dr Boivin added: "When we started looking more closely into research that has been carried out on Comorian languages, we were able to find numerous esteemed linguists who had argued for the exact thing we seemed to seeing in the Comorian archaeological record: a settlement by people from Southeast Asia. So we've been able to not only to show for the first time an archaeological signature of Austronesians, we've also shown that it seems to extend beyond Madagascar. This is really exciting, and highlights how much we still have to learn about this fascinating migration.http://phys.org/news/2016-05-ancient-crops-clue-madagascar.html#jCp
Robert F. Smith Posted September 10, 2016 Posted September 10, 2016 4 hours ago, notHagoth7 said: Are there good online sources for an initial glimpse as to what Semitic cognates might mean? I think that Rajah is saying that moro "fire" and ni "place" are non-Semitic.
Rajah Manchou Posted September 10, 2016 Author Posted September 10, 2016 (edited) 59 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: I think that Rajah is saying that moro "fire" and ni "place" are non-Semitic. Correct, the Comorian word 'moro' is not Semitic. It's probably a shift from the Swahili word for fire 'moto' But I'm also saying that it is possible the word Moroni is not based on Comorian. I think its more likely based on a Malay word related to the Semitic/Malay Antemorona clan who first settled the Comoros, before Comorian was a dialect. The Antemorona have Semitic roots. They speak a unique pidgin of Arabic/Malay and have encrypted books that tell of their origins in Arabia. So if Moroni is based on an Antemorona term, then it can possibly have a Semitic origin; the Antemorona were familiar with Arabic even though they are Malay. Quote This study has highlighted a Middle Eastern biological trace in Madagascar consistent with the Middle Eastern cultural tradition of the population involved. The results of the Antemoro gene pool analysis suggest a Middle Eastern origin to some of the Y chromosome variation associated specifically with haplogroups J1 and T1, but this does not exclude an origin of this variation from unsampled/not studied African or Southeastern Asian populations. Haplogroup J1 is predominant in Middle East, and also very frequent in North and Northeast Africa, Europe, India and Pakistan [42][64][65]. The T1 haplogroup, found at very low frequency in the world, seems to have a Southwestern Asia origin and to be associated with many demographic processes such as the spread of agriculture, the Assyrian and Babylonian exiles and the Jewish Diasporahttp://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0080932 Edited September 10, 2016 by Rajah Manchou 1
notHagoth7 Posted September 10, 2016 Posted September 10, 2016 2 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: I think that Rajah is saying that moro "fire" and ni "place" are non-Semitic. Yep. Meanwhile, my request still stands.
Robert F. Smith Posted September 10, 2016 Posted September 10, 2016 27 minutes ago, notHagoth7 said: Yep. Meanwhile, my request still stands. You may need to find an expert in Southeast Asian languages.
notHagoth7 Posted September 10, 2016 Posted September 10, 2016 2 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: You may need to find an expert in Southeast Asian languages. Why? My interest at the moment, for reasons beyond the scope of this thread, is in Semitic.
Rajah Manchou Posted September 10, 2016 Author Posted September 10, 2016 6 minutes ago, notHagoth7 said: My interest at the moment, for reasons beyond the scope of this thread, is in Semitic. If you're looking for the possible Semitic origins of the word 'Moroni' the BOM Onomasticon says this: MORON could come from the West Semitic root mrʾ, “lord, master,” with attenuation of the aleph, as in mrn, “our lord,” in Hatrean texts (DNWSI 684). It is possible that this is the gentilic of the Jaredite GN MORON (see immediately above) (JAT). Nibley also pointed out the connection, giving the meaning “belonging to Moron” or “of Moron” to the name MORONI (LID, 244). Also possible is EGYPTIAN mrny, “my beloved” or mr.n.i, “I was beloved” (RFS). Alma 50:32 has an interesting turn of phrase, “the people who were in the land BOUNTIFUL, or rather MORONI, feared that they would hearken to the words of MORIANTON and unite with his people.” The phrase seems to be saying, “MORONI feared that the people who were in the land BOUNTIFUL would hearken to the words of MORIANTON and unite with his people.” If this is the correct interpretation, then there must be something similar on the plates between “MORONI” and “BOUNTIFUL” for Joseph to have made the correction. One HEBREW word for “BOUNTIFUL” is mlʾ, which when transposed into EGYPTIAN script (which does not distinguish between r and l), might yield mār’āni. Less likely is a hypocoristicon “(my) lord,” from Aramaic marōn, “lord,” plus the 1c.s. possessive suffix or hypocoristic ending (JH). Even less likely is a derivation from Mishnaic HEBREW marōn, “rebellion” (JH). There is a place-name bêtamrôn from the root mrh (the i ending would be an adjectival, gentilic form, “the one of”); however, in view of the name MORONIHAH, however, this translation is less likely (JH). See also the suggestions for MORON.
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