Atheist Mormon Posted September 6, 2016 Posted September 6, 2016 17 hours ago, Rajah Manchou said: Maybe the Book of Mormon was written in the 19th century. I think it is a strong possibility. Not possibility, it's a guaranteed fact as well as Old Testament being a product of its own time...... Study them as much as you wish...Just realize something....There's nothing Supernatural about them...... (If there was somebody could demonstrate for all of us). 1
Calm Posted September 6, 2016 Posted September 6, 2016 46 minutes ago, cinepro said: Oops. I've been reading "Rajah Macnhou" as "Ralph Macchio" this whole time. I kept thinking "All this and the guy can act too!"
Rajah Manchou Posted September 7, 2016 Author Posted September 7, 2016 4 hours ago, cinepro said: Oops. I've been reading "Rajah Macnhou" as "Ralph Macchio" this whole time. I kept thinking "All this and the guy can act too!" One of the first moments I started to feel aged was after reading an article a few years back about how Ralph Macchio is now as old as Pat Morita was when they filmed Karate Kid. Another was watching that video you posted of Stretch Armstrong Thanks for the memories cinebro 1
Rajah Manchou Posted September 7, 2016 Author Posted September 7, 2016 4 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said: Not possibility, it's a guaranteed fact as well as Old Testament being a product of its own time...... Study them as much as you wish...Just realize something....There's nothing Supernatural about them...... (If there was somebody could demonstrate for all of us). I agree there is nothing supernatural about them; they are both products of their time and place. However I'm not yet convinced the time and place for the Book of Mormon is only 19th century New York. The theology might fit that setting, but the geography and the material culture do not. And there are a number of elements that suggest earlier influence from sources that would have been difficult to tap in Joseph Smith's time and place. Moroni and Comoros is a good example. Critics see the similarity in names to Moroni and Cumorah and make the claim Joseph lifted them off a map. But nobody can find the map he might have used. Same goes for NHM and a few other oddities. I don't think it is guaranteed fact that Joseph Smith wrote the whole thing in the 1820s, but I can certainly understand why that might be the explanation you find most logical.
RevTestament Posted September 7, 2016 Posted September 7, 2016 18 hours ago, Rajah Manchou said: Would love to hear it notHagoth. I started looking at the Book of Mormon more closely during the Jenkins-Hamblin debate. At the time I was convinced it was a 19th-century fiction. But at some point, while reading Jenkins' the Lost History of Christianity, it hit me. The Book of Mormon fits. Not in the conventional apologetic sense, but within the broader lost history of Christianity in the far east. If read in the context of a Judeo-Christian text set somewhere in the east during the 5th-century there is nothing unusual about the Book of Mormon. Things don't get weird until we start piling on proofs of a New World setting. Now I'm not saying that the Book of Mormon isn't an account of the former inhabitants of the American continent, but I am proposing that the source from whence they sprang was Asia. There is overwhelming evidence to back that up. It will never work to ignore the overwhelming evidence and insist that the source from whence they sprang could only be Jerusalem, with nothing in between. So when papers are published to Nature and Foreign Policy about the possibility that metallurgy, chariots, literacy, domesticated plants and animals spread from the Middle East to the Asian site some have identified as Morian cumr...I can't help but think the Book of Mormon isn't so weird. Well, I don't know about the Book of Mormon, but I have seen some claims that the ancient Chinese language (symbols) were based on Genesis stories... Have you ever heard of that? Seemed somewhat convincing to me...like the sign for boat being based on the story of Noah. What do you think? Am I just being gullible? 1
Rajah Manchou Posted September 7, 2016 Author Posted September 7, 2016 In trying to get to the bottom of the origins of the Moroni-Comoro-Cumorah plagiarism claim mentioned above I stumbled across another interesting reference. An Arabic geographer named Ibn Sa'id describing the Qumr of Southeast Asia said: “The Qumr lived with the Chinese in the eastern regions of the earth. Discord having broken out amongst them, the Chinese chased them towards the islands, and they remained there a certain time...Following this, discord broke out amongst them when they were in the islands...Then those who did not form a part of the Royal Family went away to the great island [Madagascar], and their Sultan dwelt in the city of Komorriya.” This account confirms that Arabic geographers believed that Madagascar and the Comoros were settled by a group of people called the Qumr, and that the group had a conflict. Some stayed in a place called Komorriya while the others sailed off to settle the islands of Qumr (Comoro). Scholars have been confused by the above account because it seems to refer to the overthrow of the Funan Empire between 357 and 420 AD, but that was not a conflict between the Chinese and the Qumr (Khmer) but rather an internal conflict of some sort. As noted in the model I have been working on, this conflict closely resembles the setting found in 4th Nephi, both in time and place, and now also includes a toponym (Komorriya), that closely resembles Cumorah. TL;DR: Between 357 and 420 AD two mysterious civilizations (one in the north founded by an exiled prince from the west and another in the south founded by a man who had a divine dream to board a ship) had a conflict on a narrow neck of land around a place called Komoriyya. The rebels in the south defeated the group in the north leading to a complete overthrow of the political system and a migration to a place that critics now claim was the source of the name Moroni and Cumorah in the Book of Mormon.
RevTestament Posted September 7, 2016 Posted September 7, 2016 18 minutes ago, Rajah Manchou said: In trying to get to the bottom of the origins of the Moroni-Comoro-Cumorah plagiarism claim mentioned above I stumbled across another interesting reference. I believe the claim a plagiarism first arose with an ardent critic named Pomeroy Tucker who in 1867 wrote about JS' supposed fascination with Capt Kidd, and the Comoros Islands and alleged that JS lifted the name Moroni from Kidd stories he read. Of course he nor anyone else has ever produced a book or periodical that mentioned Kidd and Moroni in the days of JS. Not sure if that is what you meant... 2
notHagoth7 Posted September 7, 2016 Posted September 7, 2016 16 hours ago, Rajah Manchou said: Would love to hear it notHagoth.... A glimpse: 1) In 58 BC, the term German first appeared in Latin as the name for a people - in the writings of Julius Caesar referencing to a just-arrived people he marched into northern Europe to ward off that same year. In Latin, the word also has the meaning of brother (Spanish: hermano), in Latin also meaning genuine, real, brotherly. 2) 150 years later, a Roman senator and high priest wrote an account of the Germanic peoples, and described the Germanic people frequently in glowing terms of their honor and virtue. By way of context, this account, while drawing from some earlier written and oral accounts, was finalized at about the same time that New Testament writings were being finalized. Some modern writers have recently asserted that this second Roman account was pure cultural hyperbole - claiming the claims of the Germanic culture had zero historical merit. 3) Meanwhile, between the writing of those two accounts, a Chinese expedition westward likewise mentioned/named the German people for the first time...based on the characters used to describe the people? Virtue - people. Their land? Virtue - land. So the contemporary Chinese account essentially corroborate the Latin meaning of the name German, and the assertions of the Roman senator ca. 100 AD. 1
Rajah Manchou Posted September 7, 2016 Author Posted September 7, 2016 25 minutes ago, RevTestament said: Well, I don't know about the Book of Mormon, but I have seen some claims that the ancient Chinese language (symbols) were based on Genesis stories... Have you ever heard of that? Seemed somewhat convincing to me...like the sign for boat being based on the story of Noah. What do you think? Am I just being gullible? I did once watch this and found some examples convincing and others not so much. There is a lot of commentary from Chinese protestants about the Shang being some of the earliest monotheists and their diety Shangti being no different from Elohim or something. The early Jesuits pushed this interpretation also, but I am skeptical because of their motives. But if the research in the OP is confirmed than these claims become more interesting. Quote It was during Ming and Qing dynasty, when Christianity was introduced by Jesuit Priest Matteo Ricci, that the idea of "Shangdi" started to be applied to the Christian conception of God. While initially he utilized the term Tianzhu, Ricci gradually changed the translation into "Shangdi" instead. His usage of Shangdi was contested by Confucians, as they believed that the concept of Tian and "Shangdi" is different from that of Christian's God: Zhōng Shǐ-shēng, through his books, stated that Shangdi only governs, while Christian's God is a creator, and thus differ. Ricci's translation also invited the displeasure of Dominicans and that of the Roman Curia; On March 19, 1715, Pope Clement XI released the Edict Ex Illa Die, stating that Catholics must use "Tianzhu" instead of "Shangdi" for Christianity's God. When Protestantism entered China in the mid of 19th century, the Protestant missionaries also encountered a similar issue; some preferred the term "Shangdi", while some preferred the term Shen (god). A conference held in 1877 in Shanghai, discussing the translation issue, also believed that "Shangdi" of Confucianism and the Christian concept of God are different in nature. However, by the 20th century, most British missionaries, some Catholics, Chinese Orthodox Christians, and Evangelicals preferred Shangdi as a connection with Chinese native monotheism with some further the argument by linking it with the unknown god as described in bible passage of Acts 17. Catholics preferred to avoid it, due to compromises with the local authority in order to do their missions, as well as fear such translation may associate the Christian God to Chinese polytheism. Nowadays, through the secular Chinese-language media, the Chinese word of "Shangdi", along with "Tianzhu", are frequently used to refer to the Western idea of God (Elohim in Hebrew, Theos in Greek) into Chinese, while Confucians and intellectuals in contemporary China and Taiwan attempt to realign the term to its original meaning. The Catholics officially use the term Tianzhu (Chinese: 天主, Tiānzhǔ), lit. "The Lord of Heaven", while Evangelicals typically utilize Shangdi (上帝). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shangdi
Rajah Manchou Posted September 7, 2016 Author Posted September 7, 2016 (edited) 2 hours ago, RevTestament said: I believe the claim a plagiarism first arose with an ardent critic named Pomeroy Tucker who in 1867 wrote about JS' supposed fascination with Capt Kidd, and the Comoros Islands and alleged that JS lifted the name Moroni from Kidd stories he read. Of course he nor anyone else has ever produced a book or periodical that mentioned Kidd and Moroni in the days of JS. Not sure if that is what you meant... That seems to be where it started. But I've also seen Mormons use Moroni/Comoro as evidence for an Atlantic voyage for the Lehites, proposing the Lehites had a layover there and the names were passed down through generations...on an uninhabited island : ) The claim that Joseph Smith was lifting from a map of Comoro is also one of the issues explained in detail in the CES Letter. As usual, the claim is made but the effort to understand the origin of the names Comoro or Moroni isn't. When you look at the origins of Comoro and Moroni it becomes clear that they are related to the Qumr civilization of Southeast Asia and to Merong/Maroni, the warrior from the Middle East who founded one of the first Qumr kingdoms. I'll save discussion on the claim that both names mean "place of fire" for another time. Maybe it was just a lucky guess by a boy with a fascination with Captain Kidd who looked at a world map and decided Moroni (a city) and Comoro (an island) would make great names for a warrior and a holy mountain in his American Bible. Edited September 7, 2016 by Rajah Manchou 1
notHagoth7 Posted September 7, 2016 Posted September 7, 2016 (edited) 2 hours ago, RevTestament said: Well, I don't know about the Book of Mormon, but I have seen some claims that the ancient Chinese language (symbols) were based on Genesis stories... Have you ever heard of that? Seemed somewhat convincing to me...like the sign for boat being based on the story of Noah. What do you think? Am I just being gullible? I actually purchased a book on that topic over 20 years ago. Thought it was and is very intriguing. Added: Wow, and pleased to find that the book is still in print.! Edited September 7, 2016 by notHagoth7 add link to Chinese / Genesis book 2
Rajah Manchou Posted September 7, 2016 Author Posted September 7, 2016 48 minutes ago, notHagoth7 said: I actually purchased a book on that topic over 20 years ago. Thought it was and is very intriguing. Added: Wow, and pleased to find that the book is still in print.! Thanks, its not a topic I've explored beyond a couple youtube videos. Maybe I'll give the Kindle version a try. This is the type of thing I wish was more widely discussed in Mormon circles. There is such a wealth of information on traditions that closely resemble the Jaredites (Xia and Shang) and Lehites (Polynesians). But Asia-Pacific studies are a total black hole in Mormon publications. I've seen elsewhere a few comments you've made about Hagoth's voyages. Do you have anything written up?
Rajah Manchou Posted September 7, 2016 Author Posted September 7, 2016 3 hours ago, notHagoth7 said: 3) Meanwhile, between the writing of those two accounts, a Chinese expedition westward likewise mentioned/named the German people for the first time...based on the characters used to describe the people? Virtue - people. Their land? Virtue - land. So the contemporary Chinese account essentially corroborate the Latin meaning of the name German, and the assertions of the Roman senator ca. 100 AD. Is there a link to the Chinese account somewhere? I've read quite a bit about accounts in the east about the west, and vice versa. Just curious if the one you are referring to is in my notes somewhere.
notHagoth7 Posted September 7, 2016 Posted September 7, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, Rajah Manchou said: ...This is the type of thing I wish was more widely discussed in Mormon circles.... Agreed. Meanwhile, this is a fine start for a Mormon circle, and I"m thoroughly enjoying the discussion you've started here. 1 hour ago, Rajah Manchou said: I've seen elsewhere a few comments you've made about Hagoth's voyages. Do you have anything written up? There are a handful of things here (in the "Nephites in Europe" section). (And a few related things on companion sites. Plus other unpublished things in various stages of completion.) Edited September 7, 2016 by notHagoth7
RevTestament Posted September 7, 2016 Posted September 7, 2016 12 hours ago, Rajah Manchou said: That seems to be where it started. But I've also seen Mormons use Moroni/Comoro as evidence for an Atlantic voyage for the Lehites, proposing the Lehites had a layover there and the names were passed down through generations...on an uninhabited island : ) The claim that Joseph Smith was lifting from a map of Comoro is also one of the issues explained in detail in the CES Letter. As usual, the claim is made but the effort to understand the origin of the names Comoro or Moroni isn't. When you look at the origins of Comoro and Moroni it becomes clear that they are related to the Qumr civilization of Southeast Asia and to Merong/Maroni, the warrior from the Middle East who founded one of the first Qumr kingdoms. I'll save discussion on the claim that both names mean "place of fire" for another time. Maybe it was just a lucky guess by a boy with a fascination with Captain Kidd who looked at a world map and decided Moroni (a city) and Comoro (an island) would make great names for a warrior and a holy mountain in his American Bible. That is certainly the Pomeroy Tucker take, although there is no direct evidence for Moroni being included on a map at the time. It only became the capital around 1962. However, I find your point interesting that the name could have Asian origins although it is Semitic. Most archeologists now agree that the Australasians settled Madagascar pointing to a tribe of Austalasians as being the possible Qumr your legends speak of settling the nearby Camoros. Perhaps the names weren't passed down on the island, but the words were picked up by the Nephites and passed down among them as memorable names from their first stop after Bountiful For some reason I have this feeling that some "Austalasians" were of Manasseh. I guess I believe some of the stories of family prophets among the Polynesians.
Rajah Manchou Posted September 7, 2016 Author Posted September 7, 2016 4 minutes ago, RevTestament said: That is certainly the Pomeroy Tucker take, although there is no direct evidence for Moroni being included on a map at the time. It only became the capital around 1962. However, I find your point interesting that the name could have Asian origins although it is Semitic. DNA testing has been done on a Malagasy tribe that first settled the Comoros called the Antaimorona. Its confirmed that they have Semitic roots and their DNA matches up with other groups associated with the Babylonian exile, even though they have Austronesian origins. 25 minutes ago, RevTestament said: Most archeologists now agree that the Australasians settled Madagascar pointing to a tribe of Austalasians as being the possible Qumr your legends speak of settling the nearby Camoros. Perhaps the names weren't passed down on the island, but the words were picked up by the Nephites and passed down among them as memorable names from their first stop after Bountiful A paper published just a few months ago determined that the founding populations of Madagascar and the Comoros came from a place called Banjarmasin in southern Borneo, and probably the Malay Peninsula before that. The Ibn Sa'id quote above seems to agree that some of the Qumr got pushed out to the islands from mainland Funan (Cambodia/Burma/Thailand), and from there they went to the Comoros. While others remained behind in Komoriyya. I suppose its possible the Lehites picked up the "Moroni" and "Cumorah" along the way. But one problem is that the word Moroni seems to be a Jaredite word based on the word Moron. So the Lehites and Mulekites would not be introduced to "Moroni" until they reach their destination on the isle in the sea...er, I mean the promised land. : ) 25 minutes ago, RevTestament said: For some reason I have this feeling that some "Austalasians" were of Manasseh. I guess I believe some of the stories of family prophets among the Polynesians. Me too. It also seems to be the consensus amongst the Australasians that claim to be a lost tribe. The Bnei Menashe in Burma claim Manasseh as do this fascinating group I just learned about in Indonesia:Finding A Samaritan In Indonesia"Our qahla (community) is called Bani Yasharon, which is a Samaritan Hebrew phrase meaning “children of Israel,” and is a member congregation of the World Union of Samaritan Christians (WUSC). We are not Jews, but Samaritans, that is, we trace our lineage back to the once thriving Samaritan Israelite diaspora of Roman Europe, and represent a remnant of the northern tribes of Ancient Israel, mainly Manasseh and Levi. Unlike the Samaritans still living in the Holy Land, we have been Christianized and influenced by various Christian and Jewish practices. Until a decade ago, nearly all of our Samaritan history and heritage had been lost, but thanks to modern archaeological, genealogical, and technological advancements, as well as the restorative work of Yaqob bar-Karoza and his collaboration with A. B. Institute of Samaritan Studies in Holon, Israel, God has been able to start a religious and cultural revival among those of us who were formerly far removed from Samaria." 1
Rajah Manchou Posted September 7, 2016 Author Posted September 7, 2016 (edited) Forgot to mention that Moro and Moron are also common toponyms directly north of the narrow neck on the Malay Peninsula. Here, Here, Here, and Here. There's an old tribe called Mron in the north of the peninsula, a Mulek and a Mro. I believe the root name Moron also lives on in the present name for Burma, which is Myanmar. The Burmese pronounce their Rs as Ys. So Myanmar is spelled Mranmar, the land of Mran. And I've already mentioned the name of the founder of the first kingdom (who is said to have come by boat from the Middle East) on the peninsula being Marong or Maroni. Of course there is always the risk of falling into the trap of seeing Book of Mormon names in toponyms, but I think there are enough repeated instances of M-R-N to safely say that Joseph Smith did not just make up the names Maroni or Camorah and they are genuine complementary names related to an ethnic group (Polynesian/Austronesian) that is recognized today as a remnant of the Lamanites. And speaking of Lamanites: Edited September 7, 2016 by Rajah Manchou
SteveO Posted September 8, 2016 Posted September 8, 2016 (edited) It's interesting, but how would you reconcile this with Nephi's vision of what is clearly understood to be the American continent--particularly the United States? Also, how well would the geographical history of the area hold up to the descriptions of upheaval found in 3 Neph following Christ's death? Edited September 8, 2016 by SteveO 1
Rajah Manchou Posted September 8, 2016 Author Posted September 8, 2016 (edited) 9 hours ago, SteveO said: It's interesting, but how would you reconcile this with Nephi's vision of what is clearly understood to be the American continent--particularly the United States? Also, how well would the geographical history of the area hold up to the descriptions of upheaval found in 3 Neph following Christ's death? Hi SteveO. Let me start with the usual disclaimer. I'm not proposing that the Book of Mormon account actually took place in any specific location. I'm starting with the assumption that it is a compilation of records written over 1000 years by a lineage of prophets and scribes who had varying perspectives on geography according to the knowledge that was available to them. For that reason we have to put in some effort to understand the world as they saw it, without Google Maps. This is the first known world map, dating back to the time Nephi would have had his vision in the 6th century BC: Of course, Nephi's vision would have had more resolution, but just like Isaiah, Nephi wouldn't have thought in terms of continents and modern nation states. Like Isaiah, his understanding would have been in terms of tribes living on islands in the sea. This understanding was carried all the way to the promised land where Jacob says:"We have been led to a better land, for the Lord has made the sea our path, and we are upon an isle of the sea. But great are the promises of the Lord unto them who are upon the isles of the sea; wherefore as it says isles, there must needs be more than this, and they are inhabited also by our brethren." The verse above shows the Lehites believed they were on an isle in the sea many decades after Nephi had his vision. And they believed the promises of the Lord were unto all those who are upon the isles of the sea, America being one among many, for there must needs be more than this. So to answer your question I would say we don't need to reconcile Nephi's vision with our 21st century understanding of the United States. Because borders shift, walls are built, and the United States has expanded all the way to Hawaii, Guam and even the Philippines. You say Nephi's vision clearly refers to the United States, but there are a variety of interpretations that are more inclusive without violating the constraints of the text. What is important is: where can we find the Lamanite remnant? Wherever they are we will find the promised land set aside for them. I believe the promised land to be all the isles of the sea as known to Jacob in the 6th century BC, and the promises of the Book of Mormon are intended for all those who inhabit those isles. "The original edition of Gospel Principles explicitly stated where the Lamanites were to be found: “The Lord said that when His coming was near, the Lamanites would become a righteous and respected people…. This sign is coming to pass as great numbers of Lamanites in Central and South America and the South Pacific receive the blessings of the gospel” (1978 ed., 198). The 1997 edition changed this statement slightly to say that the Lamanites were “in North and South America and the South Pacific” (1997 ed., 268). The current edition still affirms that descendants of the Book of Mormon peoples are a numerous presence in the world today but without saying where: “Great numbers of Lehi’s descendants are now receiving the blessings of the gospel” (254, 255)." Edited September 8, 2016 by Rajah Manchou 1
Rajah Manchou Posted September 9, 2016 Author Posted September 9, 2016 (edited) On 9/8/2016 at 9:47 AM, SteveO said: How well would the geographical history of the area hold up to the descriptions of upheaval found in 3 Neph following Christ's death? If we're looking at Southeast Asia as a model, it fits quite well with the destructive events in 3rd Nephi. The peninsula has been hit with a number of different natural disasters throughout history: hurricanes, earthquakes, tsunamis, storm surges, and volcanoes. Two different fault lines run through the region proposed as the Land of Zarahemla, with evidence of a 7.0 around 2000 years ago. There is an active volcano west of the Bountiful candidate that would have cycled for an eruption around the same time. Earthquakes off the west coast occur frequently, posing an enormous tsunami risk like the one we saw in 2004...the most destructive tsunami ever recorded. Some of the largest volcanic eruptions in history were within range to create extended periods of darkness, audible "groans" and "cracks". (with an overlay of Mexico over the image to allow for a comparison of distances. The Bountifuls of both models are lined up at the narrow neck) The destructive tempest in 3rd Nephi that lasted 3 hours could have been a hurricane (typhoon) passing directly over the heart of the peninsula. This has occurred 6 times within the past 50 years alone, so it is a common event and causes enormous destruction in a limited area. Storm surges of 3-4 meters are common during typhoons and a tremendous amount of flooding occurs as the rain rushes down into the plains. If the tempest is moving at a quick pace it could possibly pass over the entire peninsula within three hours. The following is a summary of the destruction caused by Typhoon Gay in 1989. It struck the region of Chumphon, which is the location of Bountiful in this model. Quote Striking Thailand with unprecedented strength, Typhoon Gay (1989) caused damage across many of its provinces. Areas between Chumphon and Rayong Provinces were severely affected by heavy rains, high winds and large swells. Rainfall amounts peaked at Chumphon, where 7.64 inches (194 mm) fell during the cyclone's passage. Damaging winds uprooted numerous trees and power poles and toppled wooden houses built on stilts. Exacerbated by deforestation, flash flooding triggered by the storm damaged or destroyed thousands of homes and caused at least 365 fatalities. Several towns and villages across Chumphon province were devastated, and one of the destroyed villages "looked like it had been bombed" according to the Bangkok Post. Entire districts were reportedly "flattened" within Chumphon and Prachuap Khiri Khan provinces. The typhoon destroyed many schools across Chumphon and Surat Thani provinces, many of which constructed from wood. All structures close to the storm's path had their windows and doors blown out, and some multi-story buildings lost their upper floors. At the height of the floods, over 250,000 hectares (618,000 acres) of land was under water. Onshore, 558 fatalities were attributed to the storm, and another 44 took place just offshore. Throughout Thailand, approximately 47,000 homes were damaged or destroyed, and over 200,000 people were affected, of which about 153,000 were left homeless. There is a tribe in Burma with an account of a period of intense darkness (Thimzing) that occurred between 25 and 40 AD. They say it was a time of "transformation" a time when "everything changed". They could not light fires and dead relatives came back to visit. This could be a memory of a large volcanic eruption that triggered a series of earthquakes...which could cause a tsunami and the upheaval and sinking of coastal land. If they were really unlucky, a typhoon could have passed over at the exact time causing storm surges, sharp lightnings and flooding. Quote The period of ‘Thimzing’ is believed to be between A.D. 25-40. This unusual total darkness befell humanity for consecutive 7 days and 7 nights. There was shortage of dry firewood and other daily essential items. The interesting thing said about the unusual event was that the ghosts (spirits) of the dead visit human beings.“Darkness befall upon me; Disgustingly I am discouraged, The darkness look like a heap of clouds, covered by a heap of dark clouds, The spirit of toleration diminishes, Like a Yak I exclaimed, A pack of shivering Yaks, we sang a group chorus”. Some people have died of the unusual darkness." "As it was pitch dark, neither animals nor men could see at all, and tigers went about biting wildly at trees, stones, and people. A general transformation took place." Typhoons passing over the peninsula are strong (up to category 5) because there is little land to weaken the storm. The winds and associated storm surges would flatten all wooden structures. Edited September 9, 2016 by Rajah Manchou
Calm Posted September 9, 2016 Posted September 9, 2016 I assume that is a translated version of the first map. Have an image of the actual one?
Rajah Manchou Posted September 9, 2016 Author Posted September 9, 2016 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Calm said: I assume that is a translated version of the first map. Have an image of the actual one? Good point. Also, here's the wiki about it:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylonian_Map_of_the_World And a more detailed description:http://cartographic-images.net/Cartographic_Images/103_Babylonian_World.html Edited September 9, 2016 by Rajah Manchou 1
Robert F. Smith Posted September 9, 2016 Posted September 9, 2016 On 9/5/2016 at 11:16 AM, Rajah Manchou said: ....................................................... In Tibetan, Bhutanese and (some) Burmese, Indian and Chinese traditions are what are called "terma" or treasure texts.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terma_(religion) These encrypted texts were hidden in different locations around the world by a tantric saint named Padmasambhava, to be revealed to "tertons" or treasure finders when the proper era (dispensation) for the teachings in the text arrives. At the appropriate moment, the treasure finder is given a vision and/or a set of instructions on how to reveal the text. The Tibetan Book of the Dead was such a text buried in a mountain and revealed to a 15 year old boy named Karma Lingpa. Prof Donald S. Lopez Jr (Univ of Michigan) has discussed this phenomenon in Tibetan and Book of Mormon terms in his interview with Karl Pohrt in The Crazy Wisdom Community Journal, #48 (May through August 2011), online at http://crazywisdom.net/upcomin/MADfree-02/dw2008-02/journalinterviewpage.html , and republished at Widdit, March 21, 2012, online at http://donaldgvdevketala.blogspot.com/ . He has also discussed it elsewhere. On 9/5/2016 at 11:16 AM, Rajah Manchou said: After Padmasambhava completed his mission of hiding texts for future ages, he retired to a copper-colored mountain on an island called Camara in the southwest.https://cloudup.com/cHm4bef01IHhttps://cloudup.com/cQ7frJP9ZjJ Being a spiritual geography, it isn't certain where Camara is. But there are only a few islands southwest of Tibet. Madagascar and the Comoros being the largest, and both sharing the name Qumr around the time Padmasambhava supposedly lived. With Qumar and Qamar being related to Qumr many scholars (including Robert Thurman, Uma's dad) and monks propose that Camara = Comoros near Madagascar. The shape of the island is triangular as well, matching descriptions in Tibetan texts. Madagascar was originally peopled by Indonesians (http://bmcgenomics.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12864-015-1394-7 ), and the same is likely true of the Camoros islands. As for the name, Camara, it comes from Arabic qamara "crescent; moonlight,” qamar “moon,” which are the source for Arabic Juzur al-Qumur “Islands of the Moon” (Arabic al-Qumuri), the Camoros Islands. One might also want to compare some Jewish Aramaic terms compared with Cumorah by John Tvedtnes: These are kĕmar “hide; keep warm; shrink, be wrinkled” (Talmud Babli Pesahim 58a); kamar “heat; produce shrinking, maturing of fruit (via underground storage, or exposure to sun)” (Tosefta Menahot 9:10); “hide in ground; watch, guard; lay a trap, net” (TB Baba Metzia 1c, Tosefta Yebamot 14:6, Yebamot 21a)[1]; qamar “bend, arch, cover” (TB Erubin 8:9); qimron “arched lid” (Kelim 16:7, 18:2); qamrota’, qamroton “vaulted, arch-covered carriage” (Midrash Songs Rabba to 6:4).[2] However, these are relatively late, rabbinic terms, which may have been derived from either Latin camera, or Greek-Coptic kamare “vaulted chamber.”[3] [1] Cf. this semantic range for the Hebrew root kmr “heat, ripening, fermentation, darkness, gloom; net, snare.” [2] Marcus Jastrow, A Dictionary of the Targumim, Talmud Babli and Yerushalmi, and the Midrashic Literature, 2 vols. (1903; reprinted in one volume, N.Y.: Judaica Press, 1971), 647, 1387. [3] W. Vycichl, Dictionnaire étymologique de la langue Copte (Leuven: Peeters, 1983), 83. 1
Robert F. Smith Posted September 9, 2016 Posted September 9, 2016 On 9/6/2016 at 2:56 PM, Atheist Mormon said: Not possibility, it's a guaranteed fact as well as Old Testament being a product of its own time...... Study them as much as you wish...Just realize something....There's nothing Supernatural about them...... (If there was somebody could demonstrate for all of us). See my “Book of Mormon Event Structure: The Ancient Near East,” Journal of Book of Mormon Studies, 5/2 (1996):98-147. Online at http://publications.maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/fullscreen/?pub=1391&index=5 . and my “Epistolary Form in the Book of Mormon,” FARMS Review, 22/2 (2010), 125-135, online at http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/review/?vol=22&num=2&id=807 . and my “The Preposterous Book of Mormon: A Singular Advantage,” lecture, August 8, 2014, at the annual FAIRMORMON Conference, Provo, Utah, online at http://www.fairmormon.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/PREPOSTEROUS-BOOK-OF-MORMON.pdf , 1
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