The source from whence they sprang

[Rajah Manchou]

"Of the 200 or so items of bronze ware he was responsible for analyzing, some came from the city of Yin. He found that the radioactivity of these Yin-Shang bronzes had almost exactly the same characteristics as that of ancient Egyptian bronzes, suggesting that their ores all came from the same source: African mines. Perhaps anticipating serious controversy, Sun’s doctoral supervisor did not allow Sun to report his findings at the time. Sun was asked to hand over his data and switched to another project. Twenty years after the start of his research and now a professor in his own right, Sun is finally ready to say all he knows about the Yin-Shang and China’s Bronze Age culture."

"Liu Shipei, the Peking University history professor and true author behind the pseudonymous chronology of the Yellow Emperor, was among the first to promote Sino-Babylonianism in books such as his 1903 History of the Chinese Nation. By 1915, the theory was widespread enough that the national anthem of the republic, commissioned by President Yuan Shikai referred to it obliquely, calling China “the famous descendant from Kunlun Peak,” which Chinese mythology locates in the far, far West." 

http://foreignpolicy.com/2016/09/02/did-chinese-civilization-come-from-ancient-egypt-archeological-debate-at-heart-of-china-national-identity/
http://www.nature.com/articles/srep23304

For those unfamiliar with the civilizations mentioned in the article, the Xia appeared around 2070 BC in the same area that Hugh Nibley proposed as the location of the Jaredite settlement of Morian cumr around 2500 BC. The Qumr (Kunlun in Chinese texts) people of Southeast Asia are believed to have branched off from this civilization around the same time, as evidenced by their bronzes which bear a striking resemblance to the Xia, Shang, and Dian Dynasties. 

Qumr is also the name given to the legendary mountain at the source of the Nile River, supposedly drawing its name from the ancient Qumr civilization that first settled the Qumar Islands, now known as the Comoros. The Comoros Islands (claimed by some critics as the 19th-century source of the Book of Mormon names Cumorah and Moroni) are recognized in south Asian traditions as Camara, the dwelling place of an immortal saint who buries golden books in the earth, in locations as far away as North America. You won't find that in the CES Letter.

The Book of Mormon is the only text I know that can logically connect these civilizations. If Joseph Smith made up the names -cumr for a Babylonian clan in Asia and Camorah as their holy mountain, he sure got lucky. These names fit better than any for groups migrating through the Indian Ocean between 2500 BC and 500 AD.

Sources:
https://cloudup.com/c5FVSKAu7ew
https://cloudup.com/ckHKVFTWUpF
https://cloudup.com/cFnJq9AM1wx

Edited September 5, 2016 by Rajah Manchou
fixed broken links

[CV75]

I think the sealed portion of the Book of Mormon will provide some "historical" /geographic / familial link that shows that all the world's nations, kindreds, tongues and peoples are equally under God's wing, expanding more explicitly upon the theme that God has made covenants unto the children of men ("the work of the covenants of the Father, which he hath made unto the children of men" -- Moroni 7:31, 32 and elsewhere)

, who have many sources from which they sprang, but ultimately springing from Adam.

[thesometimesaint]

Didn't know that Bronze is radioactive.

CFR.

[Rajah Manchou]

2 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

Didn't know that Bronze is radioactive.

CFR.

Try the second link, their paper published in Nature.

http://www.nature.com/articles/srep23304

Geochemistry runs way over my head, so I won't be able to help beyond what's already in their publication.

[Rajah Manchou]

7 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

Didn't know that Bronze is radioactive.

CFR.

The problem that puzzled archaeologists for years is why such well-developed bronze technology all appeared so suddenly in the alluvial plain of the Yellow River and also several locations in southern China? More importantly, the lead isotopes of the early Yin-Shang bronzes are highly radiogenic^1,2,6,7,8 and distinctively different from any of the known lead-zinc or tin deposits in China⁹. They are also different from most bronzes found in other places worldwide^{10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17}. It has been proposed that the Yin-Shang people might have gotten raw materials from southwestern China, e.g., Jinsha for lead and Lala for copper, because the Sanxingdui bronzes from there all have essentially the same highly radiogenic lead isotopes as those of early Yin-Shang (Fig. 1a,b)². The lead isotopes of Jinsha and other lead-zinc deposits in southwestern China, however, have considerably younger lead-lead isochron ages than those of the Yin-Shang and Sanxingdui bronzes (Fig. 1a,b). 

A Shang dynasty copper smelting/foundry site was found and excavated in Yuanqu near Tongkuangyu^24,26. As shown in Fig. 1e,f, most of the samples from this smelting site have distinctively less radiogenic lead than the Tongkuangyu ore or the Yin-Shang bronzes. Only one bronze found at the smelter plots marginally in the highly radiogenic lead field defined by early Yin-Shang bronze. In contrast, all smelting slags are less radiogenic. Therefore, this bronze with highly radiogenic Pb might have been taken to this site, rather than produced locally.

Edited September 5, 2016 by Rajah Manchou

[cinepro]

The Comoros Islands (claimed by some critics as the 19th-century source of the Book of Mormon names Cumorah and Moroni) are recognized in south Asian traditions as Camara, the dwelling place of an immortal saint who buries golden books in the earth, in locations as far away as North America.

I didn't see a reference to this in any of your links.  What's the source for this?

[ksfisher]

14 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

Didn't know that Bronze is radioactive.

CFR.

Read the first few sentances of the second link.

Edited September 5, 2016 by ksfisher

[Atheist Mormon]

3 hours ago, Rajah Manchou said:

The Book of Mormon is the only text I know that can logically connect these civilizations. If Joseph Smith made up the names -cumr for a Babylonian clan in Asia and Camorah as their holy mountain, he sure got lucky. 
 

I'd like you to write some Names that Joseph got it right...I'm curious.

[thesometimesaint]

31 minutes ago, Rajah Manchou said:

Try the second link, their paper published in Nature.

http://www.nature.com/articles/srep23304

Geochemistry runs way over my head, so I won't be able to help beyond what's already in their publication.

Thank you.

[Rajah Manchou]

10 minutes ago, cinepro said:

I didn't see a reference to this in any of your links.  What's the source for this?

It will require a few references to explain, hope you don't mind.

In Tibetan, Bhutanese and (some) Burmese, Indian and Chinese traditions are what are called "terma" or treasure texts.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terma_(religion)

These encrypted texts were hidden in different locations around the world by a tantric saint named Padmasambhava, to be revealed to "tertons" or treasure finders when the proper era (dispensation) for the teachings in the text arrives. At the appropriate moment, the treasure finder is given a vision and/or a set of instructions on how to reveal the text. The Tibetan Book of the Dead was such a text buried in a mountain and revealed to a 15 year old boy named Karma Lingpa. 

After Padmasambhava completed his mission of hiding texts for future ages, he retired to a copper-colored mountain on an island called Camara in the southwest.

https://cloudup.com/cHm4bef01IH
https://cloudup.com/cQ7frJP9ZjJ

Being a spiritual geography, it isn't certain where Camara is. But there are only a few islands southwest of Tibet. Madagascar and the Comoros being the largest, and both sharing the name Qumr around the time Padmasambhava supposedly lived. With Qumar and Qamar being related to Qumr many scholars (including Robert Thurman, Uma's dad) and monks propose that Camara = Comoros near Madagascar. The shape of the island is triangular as well, matching descriptions in Tibetan texts.

[Rajah Manchou]

1 hour ago, Atheist Mormon said:

I'd like you to write some Names that Joseph got it right...I'm curious.

Camorah/Cumorah = the hill or mountain where Moroni buried the golden records
Camara = a copper-colored mountain where an immortal saint who buries golden records abides in a copper palace
Comoro = the island where the immortal saint is said to abide in his copper palace
Qumr = a mountain at the source of the Nile where Hermes Trismegistus built a copper palace, a myth that likely inspired the above account of the saint that buries golden records in mountains

Does it make more sense to say that Joseph was looking at a map of the southern Indian Ocean and decided that Comoro was a cool name? If so, pretty lucky.

Edited September 5, 2016 by Rajah Manchou
misspelled trismegistus again

[Rajah Manchou]

1 hour ago, Atheist Mormon said:

I'd like you to write some Names that Joseph got it right...I'm curious.

And an extra one just because its also mentioned above:

Cumr = the final two syllables of the Jaredite settlement in Asia
Qumr = the first civilization in South Asia, derived from the word Kunlun which represents the first mythical civilization in Asia
Kunlun = a Chinese mispronunciation of the Qumr word for mountain kingdom (kurung bnam), refers to a holy mountain in the west in Chinese mythology
Kur = Sumerian for mountain
Qumr = a holy mountain in the west
Cumorah = a holy mountain in the west
Kumeru = a holy mountain opposite the holy mountain of Sumeru

Edited September 5, 2016 by Rajah Manchou

[Atheist Mormon]

2 hours ago, Rajah Manchou said:

And an extra one just because its also mentioned above:

Cumr = the final two syllables of the Jaredite settlement in Asia
Qumr = the first civilization in South Asia, derived from the word Kunlun which represents the first mythical civilization in Asia
Kunlun = a Chinese mispronunciation of the Qumr word for mountain kingdom (kurung bnam), refers to a holy mountain in the west in Chinese mythology
Kur = Sumerian for mountain
Qumr = a holy mountain in the west
Cumorah = a holy mountain in the west
Kumeru = a holy mountain opposite the holy mountain of Sumeru

Definitely not a historian....Just know enough to get by my world history but this is a very weak & superficial link you are trying to establish.

[cinepro]

4 hours ago, Rajah Manchou said:

It will require a few references to explain, hope you don't mind.

In Tibetan, Bhutanese and (some) Burmese, Indian and Chinese traditions are what are called "terma" or treasure texts.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terma_(religion)

These encrypted texts were hidden in different locations around the world by a tantric saint named Padmasambhava, to be revealed to "tertons" or treasure finders when the proper era (dispensation) for the teachings in the text arrives. At the appropriate moment, the treasure finder is given a vision and/or a set of instructions on how to reveal the text. The Tibetan Book of the Dead was such a text buried in a mountain and revealed to a 15 year old boy named Karma Lingpa. 

After Padmasambhava completed his mission of hiding texts for future ages, he retired to a copper-colored mountain on an island called Camara in the southwest.

https://cloudup.com/cHm4bef01IH
https://cloudup.com/cQ7frJP9ZjJ

Being a spiritual geography, it isn't certain where Camara is. But there are only a few islands southwest of Tibet. Madagascar and the Comoros being the largest, and both sharing the name Qumr around the time Padmasambhava supposedly lived. With Qumar and Qamar being related to Qumr many scholars (including Robert Thurman, Uma's dad) and monks propose that Camara = Comoros near Madagascar. The shape of the island is triangular as well, matching descriptions in Tibetan texts.

I don't know much about you, but I'm guessing this was your favorite toy as a youngster.

[Rajah Manchou]

2 hours ago, cinepro said:

I don't know much about you, but I'm guessing this was your favorite toy as a youngster.

Fair enough, it's not lost on me how unfamiliar the material is to Mormons and anybody who might be reading here. Perhaps it will always remain a field of research for those without preconceived notions about the origins of Mormonism.

https://www.evernote.com/l/AAgspMDfbUREA5aLClztgKXSmzLXOOW64DM





 

Edited September 6, 2016 by Rajah Manchou

[Rajah Manchou]

3 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said:

Definitely not a historian....Just know enough to get by my world history but this is a very weak & superficial link you are trying to establish.

Well, there is definitely more to it than you'll get from asking one question and assessing based on two responses. But if its not of interest to you, no biggie.

[Atheist Mormon]

24 minutes ago, Rajah Manchou said:

Well, there is definitely more to it than you'll get from asking one question and assessing based on two responses. But if its not of interest to you, no biggie.

I didn't say it is no interest to me, on the contrary.....I'm very interested...In fact I spend most of my free time/commuting time learning about the Planet's history and Human history. I just find no correlation with the BoM and Chinese early history. That's all.

[Rajah Manchou]

1 hour ago, Atheist Mormon said:

I didn't say it is no interest to me, on the contrary.....I'm very interested...In fact I spend most of my free time/commuting time learning about the Planet's history and Human history. I just find no correlation with the BoM and Chinese early history. That's all.

Would you be willing to have a closer look? I admit I'm probably blind to many of the holes so would love to have some feedback. I've posted about it here, but never get a response beyond "it's a stretch" or "I just don't see it".

I'll even toss in $100 if you can demonstrate how the Book of Mormon narrative does not correlate with an Asian setting. Best case scenario, you earn some cash for your effort and learn a little bit about Asian history. Worst case scenario, you learn a little bit about Asian history. 

[Atheist Mormon]

40 minutes ago, Rajah Manchou said:

Would you be willing to have a closer look? I admit I'm probably blind to many of the holes so would love to have some feedback. I've posted about it here, but never get a response beyond "it's a stretch" or "I just don't see it".

I'll even toss in $100 if you can demonstrate how the Book of Mormon narrative does not correlate with an Asian setting. Best case scenario, you earn some cash for your effort and learn a little bit about Asian history. Worst case scenario, you learn a little bit about Asian history. 

Sorry Raja, it is futile...I'd hate to discourage you from this quest of yours but this is far more futile than Erich von Daniken's. I can toss you $5000 if you would have some irrefutable evidence...It would never be about the money. 

[Rajah Manchou]

1 hour ago, Atheist Mormon said:

Sorry Raja, it is futile...I'd hate to discourage you from this quest of yours but this is far more futile than Erich von Daniken's. I can toss you $5000 if you would have some irrefutable evidence...It would never be about the money. 

I think you misunderstand what I'm proposing. I'm not saying that alien astronauts built Zarahemla because...you can't prove they didn't.

I'm saying the Book of Mormon is a perfectly valid religious text. No anachronisms, no absurdities, no conflicts of culture, geography, history or archeology. That has nothing to do with it being true or not. I am not trying to prove the Book of Mormon "actually happened" in Asia. I'm trying to demonstrate that it is a perfectly valid Judeo-Christian text that resembles other Judeo-Christian texts from the 5th century, because they are all set in Asia. I'm trying to remove the anachronisms that critics and apologists have unnecessarily dumped on the Book of Mormon by forcing geographies and settings that obviously don't fit. 

Maybe the Book of Mormon was written in the 19th century. I think it is a strong possibility. Or maybe it was compiled by a spirit committee headed by Francis Bacon and Shakespeare. Maybe it was written by Erich von Daniken's great great uncle Solomon von Spaulding. Maybe it was written by crypto-Christians in China, translated into Gaelic by Jesuits and hidden in the floorboards of Stephen Macks' business partner's home in Detroit. Or maybe Joesph Smith wrote it and got terribly lucky. I don't know. It's not my point. 

I'm simply proposing that the Book of Mormon narrative (fictional or otherwise) fits perfectly fine in an Asian setting. I've given one example above. You may not see the relationship between Camorah, Camara and Qamar, all being holy mountains associated with three distinct hermetic traditions of hidden golden texts, but you're not being very thorough by dismissing it without, at the very least, asking a few more questions.

Edited September 6, 2016 by Rajah Manchou

[notHagoth7]

5 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said:

I didn't say it is no interest to me, on the contrary.....I'm very interested...In fact I spend most of my free time/commuting time learning about the Planet's history and Human history. I just find no correlation with the BoM and Chinese early history. That's all.

I found some of what I believe to be indirect evidence from China earlier this year...which intrigued me quite a bit. Which is why I'm even more interested in Rajah's recent posts.

[Calm]

Oh my word, I have been reading Rajah as Ralph all this time.  My total apologies for not paying closer attention.

[Rajah Manchou]

15 minutes ago, Calm said:

Oh my word, I have been reading Rajah as Ralph all this time.  My total apologies for not paying closer attention.

Haha, I did notice that in a few of your comments. But no worries. Ralph Manchou has a nice ring to it.

[Rajah Manchou]

19 minutes ago, notHagoth7 said:

I found some of what I believe to be indirect evidence from China earlier this year...which intrigued me quite a bit. Which is why I'm even more interested in Rajah's recent posts.

Would love to hear it notHagoth.

I started looking at the Book of Mormon more closely during the Jenkins-Hamblin debate. At the time I was convinced it was a 19th-century fiction. But at some point, while reading Jenkins' the Lost History of Christianity, it hit me. The Book of Mormon fits. Not in the conventional apologetic sense, but within the broader lost history of Christianity in the far east. If read in the context of a Judeo-Christian text set somewhere in the east during the 5th-century there is nothing unusual about the Book of Mormon. Things don't get weird until we start piling on proofs of a New World setting. Now I'm not saying that the Book of Mormon isn't an account of the former inhabitants of the American continent, but I am proposing that the source from whence they sprang was Asia. There is overwhelming evidence to back that up. It will never work to ignore the overwhelming evidence and insist that the source from whence they sprang could only be Jerusalem, with nothing in between.

So when papers are published to Nature and Foreign Policy about the possibility that metallurgy, chariots, literacy, domesticated plants and animals spread from the Middle East to the Asian site some have identified as Morian cumr...I can't help but think the Book of Mormon isn't so weird. 

[cinepro]

Oops.  I've been reading "Rajah Macnhou" as "Ralph Macchio" this whole time. 

I kept thinking "All this and the guy can act too!"

Edited September 6, 2016 by cinepro