Does God Know When We Will Die?

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, Johnnie Cake said:

I'm well aware of the term...are you suggesting that Elder Bednar did not mean what he said and was talking figuratively? And when Elder Hales says that God knows all these things...though omnipotent and omniscient, all powerful and all knowing" he was talking figuratively and we should not be talking him at his word?

One desperately needs to know how words are used and to place them in proper context.  The omni-words you use are never found in Hebrew.  They are not biblical, and are not to be taken literally (unless of course you are a fundamentalist Christian).  They convey a poetic sense of majesty and grandeur appropriate to deity, so that it is as if the omni-words are literally true, even though they are meant to be taken figuratively.  The final arbiter here should be the normative basis of LDS theology, which is ultimately controlling.  This is particularly true when we mistakenly set up some human as having absolute knowledge.  Humans are not infallible or omnicompetent.

[JLHPROF]

12 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

This gives me the heebie jeebies...

I can understand that.
But IMO we put far too much significance on mortal death.  This life is just a blip in eternity.
And while I certainly am not praying to be a martyr, the fact that martyrs receive blessings is scriptural.

[rongo]

This, and other deep speculative topics, was one of the things that attracted me to my wife (outside of physical attraction). We talked about all kinds of things like this as we dated, and continue to this day (20th anniversary this year). This question is one we continue to disagree on, but have interesting discussions: absolute vs. limited foreknowledge. 

My personal view is that God has functional, practical foreknowledge, which for all intents and purposes, approaches 100%. However, I don't believe that he knows which of us will be exalted and which not, with 100% certainty. I like to think that there is room for heroic advancement and tragic fall. I like B.H. Roberts's explanation that foreknowledge means God knows what can be known. As the agency of billions of intelligences is exercised and choices are made, these choices open up new possibilities, and God's foreknowledge depends on being able to know in each moment what "is." Per Roberts: As the future unfolds, God knows it. 

To answer the OP question, I don't think he knows with 100% certainty when everyone will die. I think in many/most cases, he does, and in some cases, he calls people home (and thus knows those instances, for obvious reasons). 

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Johnnie Cake said:

I agree with you bluebell each of these reasons could be legitimate reasons for why God might issue a mission call....but that does not seem to appear to be what happened in this case...God issued a specific calling for a particular place and time and with specific companion who would serve alongside Patton.  Had God's motivation for issuing the mission call been any of the reasons you've provided...why wouldn't God have just issued a general call instead of such a specific calling including companions and a time frame?

What good would a general call do for Patton though?  He didn't know he was going to die.  He would have needed to know when to prepare to leave, for example, and where he might be going.  

Including others in the mission doesn't really make a difference, he wasn't given a specific companion but just told that he would be going with a specific group of men.  The camaraderie of planning to serve with those men could have benefits and blessings though, such as increased friendship, service, and loyalty to each other, bringing about greater unity as brothers in the gospel (which is a huge blessing, if the scriptures are to be believed).

 

[Duncan]

I am still dying from Pneumonia, antiobiotic didn't work as the Dr. anticipated so they gave me a stronger one so we'll see, so If I die then I 'll come back and tell everyone how it all works, that is my free gift to you

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

 

• "According to the Prophet Joseph Smith, David Patten had confided to him sometime in the early summer of 1838 that he, Patten, had been praying and 'had asked the Lord to let him die the death of a martyr.' Lycurgus Wilson, who wrote of the life of Elder Patten, suggested that this desire to die as a martyr probably came as a result of the revelation in section 114.  The Prophet expressed sorrow at such a request, 'for,' according to Wilson, the prophet stated, 'when a man of your faith asks the Lord for anything, he generally gets it.' (David F. Boone, Studies in Scripture, Vol. 1: The Doctrine and Covenants, ed. by Robert L. Millet and Kent P. Jackson, [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1989], 440) 
   

Simple Timeline.
February 1835 - Patten ordained an Apostle of Jesus Christ
April 1838 - Patten asks Joseph for a personal revelation and D&C 114 is received calling him on a mission.
Early Summer (June?) 1838 - Apostle Patten began petitioning the Lord to allow him to be a martyr.
October 1838 - Patten receives his request.

 

 

Thanks for sharing that.

 

[Guest]

5 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

According to LDS Doctrine God is omnipotent, omnipresent & omniscient.  He knows everything. 

Elder Robert Hales put it this way, “God knows all these things…Though omnipotent and omniscient, all-powerful and all-knowing, He is our friend.” Oct ’97 General Conference

The scriptures reinforce this doctrine of an all knowing God, a God that even knows how many hairs are on our heads.

Luke 12: 6-7

6 Are not five sparrows sold for two farthings, and not one of them is forgotten before God?

7 But even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear not therefore: ye are of more value than many sparrows.

To further confirm this doctrine of an all knowing God, LDS scripture further confirms this doctrine that not only does God know the number of hairs on our head but the number of planets in the Universe. It appears that God's knowledge is all encompassing.

In Moses 1:35 we read:

But only an account of this earth, and the inhabitants thereof, give I unto you. For behold, there are many worlds that have passed away by the word of my power. And there are many that now stand, and innumerable are they unto man; but all things are numbered unto me, for they are mine and I know them.” (Moses 1:35.)

Truly this is a powerful all-knowing God who has His hand in every detail of our lives.  Which leads me to my question:

Does God, being this all knowing, omnipotent, omnipresent & omniscient being, know how and when we, His children, will die?  A simple yes or no will suffice.

 

How could he not, your thread title and the scriptures you quote are confusing as to why you would. Since according to Scriptue that when we die, "that spirit is taking home to the God that gave it life". 

[CV75]

2 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

Please feel welcome to offer any answer you would like to...I was attempting to make it less complicated...but you are welcome to offer any answer, nuanced or exact you like

"No." LOL just kidding.

5 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

Does God, being this all knowing, omnipotent, omnipresent & omniscient being, know how and when we, His children, will die?

I think He can be "all knowing, omnipotent, omnipresent & omniscient" and yet not know how and when we will die, depending on what one means by those terms.

Personally, I don't think, whatever His capacity, He spends His time that way. I think the liberating power of His Son's Atonement allows Him (and us) the luxury to engage in other, bigger-picture and more personal pursuits in doing what it takes to get us to return to Him. He would rather know us than know about us, just as He expects of us in relating to Him. So I don't think in His "omni-efficiency" He needs or opts to know how and when we die. I think He knows once it happens, and can even see it coming and can intervene as He deems appropriate for doing what it takes to get us to return to Him.

I suppose, academically speaking, that there are instances where He is so involved with the planning and execution of someone's death that He does indeed know ahead of time, but I cannot think of any examples where He has done that*. Everything I've seen in the way of His killing people is pretty much contingent on the circumstances, just as His saving them from harm. He decides when His knowledge is used to redirect the consequences of His children's' agency, individually and collectively, and it is really all about the eventual return and reign of His Son on earth with those He has saved as begotten sons and daughters.

* Except for Hezekiah, maybe... he just gave him 15 more years, but may not have known the starting point ahead of time (Isaiah 38). This is different than the prophecies in the Book of Mormon, which have fairly exact dates attached to them due to the preparations for the marvelous work and wonder to come forth for the return and reign of His Son on earth with those He has saved as begotten sons and daughters.

Edited April 20, 2017 by CV75
Hezekiah!

[Stargazer]

57 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

This gives me the heebie jeebies...

Gives me the heebie jeebies, too!  But in a good way!

For some reason this brings this, out of Helaman, to mind:

I will make thee mighty in word and in deed, in faith and in works; yea, even that all things shall be done unto thee according to thy word, for thou shalt not ask that which is contrary to my will.

 

[Johnnie Cake]

2 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

 

• "According to the Prophet Joseph Smith, David Patten had confided to him sometime in the early summer of 1838 that he, Patten, had been praying and 'had asked the Lord to let him die the death of a martyr.' Lycurgus Wilson, who wrote of the life of Elder Patten, suggested that this desire to die as a martyr probably came as a result of the revelation in section 114.  The Prophet expressed sorrow at such a request, 'for,' according to Wilson, the prophet stated, 'when a man of your faith asks the Lord for anything, he generally gets it.' (David F. Boone, Studies in Scripture, Vol. 1: The Doctrine and Covenants, ed. by Robert L. Millet and Kent P. Jackson, [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1989], 440) 
   

Simple Timeline.
February 1835 - Patten ordained an Apostle of Jesus Christ
April 1838 - Patten asks Joseph for a personal revelation and D&C 114 is received calling him on a mission.
Early Summer (June?) 1838 - Apostle Patten began petitioning the Lord to allow him to be a martyr.
October 1838 - Patten receives his request.

 

 

and you believe this I'm guessing...seems too convenient....I'm guessing that there is no contemporary record of this claim by Patton nor of Smith sharing this request until AFTER Patton's death

[JLHPROF]

23 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

and you believe this I'm guessing...seems too convenient....I'm guessing that there is no contemporary record of this claim by Patton nor of Smith sharing this request until AFTER Patton's death

Must be fun being so cynical and skeptical.
Seriously, the degree of conspiracy needed to make all these "convenient" occurrences into underhanded lies is mindboggling.
 

Edited April 20, 2017 by JLHPROF

[Johnnie Cake]

16 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Must be fun being so cynical and skeptical.
Seriously, the degree of conspiracy needed to make all these "convenient" occurrences into underhanded lies is mindboggling.
 

Not really..

Step 1.  Joseph issue a mission call to David Patton

Step 2. Patton is killed before revelation could be fulfilled

Step 3. Joseph covers his  arse by making up a scenario that makes everything conveniently ok. 

All I'm asking is for something that suggests I'm wrong.  We know Joseph lied in certain circumstances when his authority was being questioned...no surprises there...so we know he is capable of lying when convenient.  Why not in this situation?  If I'm wrong I'm more than happy to admit I was wrong...so of these statements you claim made by Smith...surely you can show that they were made Before Patton's death right?

[Ahab]

1 hour ago, Johnnie Cake said:

and you believe this I'm guessing...seems too convenient....I'm guessing that there is no contemporary record of this claim by Patton nor of Smith sharing this request until AFTER Patton's death

Contemporary record? This is all history now. You can't go back to day to day events as they happened one day at a time then because now it is all history.

But if you could you would see each thing happen on a different day as it happened.

[Duncan]

In Section 124:19 it says that David Patten is "with me at this time" because apparently his work was finished. In verse 130 it says that he was taken and his priesthood is not going to leave him anytime soon.

I am far from an expert on David Patten but I own his two biographies and a membe lady by the name of Drusilla? Hendricks said in her journal she was visiting her husband who was shot at the same battle that Patten was killed at and she said this, 

"I went into the house. Sister Patten had just reached the bed where her husband lay and I heard him say, Ann don't weep. I have kept the faith and my work is done. My husband lay within three feet of Brother Patten, and I spoke to him. He could speak but could not move any more than if he were dead"

So, of course she wrote this after the fact because she couldn't anticipate what would happen or what anybody would have said. In Apostle Patten's mind at least he felt his life's mission was done and now he was onto the next life

[Johnnie Cake]

47 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Contemporary record? This is all history now. You can't go back to day to day events as they happened one day at a time then because now it is all history.

But if you could you would see each thing happen on a different day as it happened.

All I'm suggesting is that these convenient claimed statements allegedly made by smith were made AFTER Patton was killed. If Patton had a death wish surely he told someone other than Smith or if only smith smith recorded it somewhere before Patton was killed

 

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

Must be fun being so cynical and skeptical.
Seriously, the degree of conspiracy needed to make all these "convenient" occurrences into underhanded lies is mindboggling.
 

Ps I am a skeptic. Cynical not so much

[Duncan]

The quotation is“When a man of your faith asks the Lord for anything, he generally gets it.” Said by Joseph Smith to David Patten as reported by Wilford Woodruff, where Woodruff heard it or recorded it I have no idea. It was in the Lycurgus Wilson bio on Patten but no indication when it was recorded

[JLHPROF]

27 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

All I'm suggesting is that these convenient claimed statements allegedly made by smith were made AFTER Patton was killed. If Patton had a death wish surely he told someone other than Smith or if only smith smith recorded it somewhere before Patton was killed

 

Ps I am a skeptic. Cynical not so much

Saturday, 27.--Brother Patten was buried this day at Far West, and before the funeral, I called at Brother Patten's house, and while meditating on the scene before me in presence of his friends, I could not help pointing to his lifeless body and testifying, "There lies a man that has done just as he said he would--he has laid down his life for his friends." - Joseph Smith

(Not exactly concrete evidence, but a possible allusion to a private conversation).
Best I can do right now.

[mrmarklin]

No.

 

I think He has a general idea, but I firmly believe we are masters of our destiny. Activities that are risky will shorten lives and positive activities will lengthen it. Our choice. 

[CV75]

51 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Saturday, 27.--Brother Patten was buried this day at Far West, and before the funeral, I called at Brother Patten's house, and while meditating on the scene before me in presence of his friends, I could not help pointing to his lifeless body and testifying, "There lies a man that has done just as he said he would--he has laid down his life for his friends." - Joseph Smith

(Not exactly concrete evidence, but a possible allusion to a private conversation).
Best I can do right now.

Interestingly (seemingly paradoxically), the irrational component of an all-or-nothing perspective prevents acceptance of concrete yes-or-no, black-or-white answers anyway, because by constitution it is a defense mechanism.

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

Not really..

Step 1.  Joseph issue a mission call to David Patton

Step 2. Patton is killed before revelation could be fulfilled

Step 3. Joseph covers his  arse by making up a scenario that makes everything conveniently ok. 

All I'm asking is for something that suggests I'm wrong.  We know Joseph lied in certain circumstances when his authority was being questioned...no surprises there...so we know he is capable of lying when convenient.  Why not in this situation?  If I'm wrong I'm more than happy to admit I was wrong...so of these statements you claim made by Smith...surely you can show that they were made Before Patton's death right?

You ought to read (or reread) Richard Bushman's Rough Stone Rolling.  He points out that Joseph Smith had a temper and could hold a grudge.  You say that Joseph lied because a prophecy didn't come true.  You are still playing the infallibility game, and that is dirty pool.  Why?  Because all men make errors, and it is a main point of LDS theology that humans make mistakes.  And that includes prophets.

The late David Noel Freedman (a prominent non-Mormon scholar) made a special point of the biblical prophecies which didn't come to pass.  How can a biblical prophet make a mistake?  He didn't address that question, but he took it as fact that they made false prophecies.  He used that fact as a point in favor of the authenticity of the Bible.  What other sort of literature directly accepts the fallibility of its prophets?  You're not asking the right questions, Johnnie.

[Ahab]

1 hour ago, Johnnie Cake said:

All I'm suggesting is that these convenient claimed statements allegedly made by smith were made AFTER Patton was killed. If Patton had a death wish surely he told someone other than Smith or if only smith smith recorded it somewhere before Patton was killed

Have you ever read 'History of the Church' written by Joseph and/or his scribes/historians?

It was written as a journal or diary with entries made on specific days with one event happening before another.  

[Johnnie Cake]

2 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Saturday, 27.--Brother Patten was buried this day at Far West, and before the funeral, I called at Brother Patten's house, and while meditating on the scene before me in presence of his friends, I could not help pointing to his lifeless body and testifying, "There lies a man that has done just as he said he would--he has laid down his life for his friends." - Joseph Smith

(Not exactly concrete evidence, but a possible allusion to a private conversation).
Best I can do right now.

I appreciate the effort thx. Does it convince me not really...kind of the type of things one would say at a funeral 

Edited April 21, 2017 by Johnnie Cake

[Johnnie Cake]

1 hour ago, Ahab said:

Have you ever read 'History of the Church' written by Joseph and/or his scribes/historians?

It was written as a journal or diary with entries made on specific days with one event happening before another.  

Yes, I actually own a first edition copy 

[Johnnie Cake]

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

You ought to read (or reread) Richard Bushman's Rough Stone Rolling.  He points out that Joseph Smith had a temper and could hold a grudge.  You say that Joseph lied because a prophecy didn't come true.  You are still playing the infallibility game, and that is dirty pool.  Why?  Because all men make errors, and it is a main point of LDS theology that humans make mistakes.  And that includes prophets.

The late David Noel Freedman (a prominent non-Mormon scholar) made a special point of the biblical prophecies which didn't come to pass.  How can a biblical prophet make a mistake?  He didn't address that question, but he took it as fact that they made false prophecies.  He used that fact as a point in favor of the authenticity of the Bible.  What other sort of literature directly accepts the fallibility of its prophets?  You're not asking the right questions, Johnnie.

You know or at least I hope you know how much respect I have for you Robert. So for clarification are you suggesting that this was a false prophecy?

[strappinglad]

NDE experiences seem to indicate that there is a time to die. Many say that they were told that they had to return to earth and  the experiencers were mighty upset at having to return. Others have been told that it was their choice to return or stay. Maybe there is a timely ' window' for passing on. Shakespeare (sic)  said we are all players on the world stage. If so, then our part can be played by others if we have to go.

As for Patten, I suggest he went on his mission, and with the 12. God just didn't specify which 12.