Does God Know When We Will Die?

[Johnnie Cake]

According to LDS Doctrine God is omnipotent, omnipresent & omniscient.  He knows everything. 

Elder Robert Hales put it this way, “God knows all these things…Though omnipotent and omniscient, all-powerful and all-knowing, He is our friend.” Oct ’97 General Conference

The scriptures reinforce this doctrine of an all knowing God, a God that even knows how many hairs are on our heads.

Luke 12: 6-7

6 Are not five sparrows sold for two farthings, and not one of them is forgotten before God?

7 But even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear not therefore: ye are of more value than many sparrows.

To further confirm this doctrine of an all knowing God, LDS scripture further confirms this doctrine that not only does God know the number of hairs on our head but the number of planets in the Universe. It appears that God's knowledge is all encompassing.

In Moses 1:35 we read:

But only an account of this earth, and the inhabitants thereof, give I unto you. For behold, there are many worlds that have passed away by the word of my power. And there are many that now stand, and innumerable are they unto man; but all things are numbered unto me, for they are mine and I know them.” (Moses 1:35.)

Truly this is a powerful all-knowing God who has His hand in every detail of our lives.  Which leads me to my question:

Does God, being this all knowing, omnipotent, omnipresent & omniscient being, know how and when we, His children, will die?  A simple yes or no will suffice.

 

Edited April 20, 2017 by Johnnie Cake

[JAHS]

Yes.

[thesometimesaint]

Yes. But generally speaking we don't.

[bluebell]

Yes.

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, Johnnie Cake said:

Does God, being this all knowing, omnipotent, omnipresent & omniscient being, know how and when we, His children, will die?  A simple yes or no will suffice.

Well, if you limit me to yes or no, I'll go with yes.

But don't forget about agency.

[Duncan]

I am on the fence about this, I mean does he know who will commit suicide? if so is he trying to prevent it? I think about that odd knucklehead who randomly shot that older man and then he escaped and the good folks at McDonalds stopped him and then he down himself a mischief. I just wonder when did God know all that and did he do anything to prevent it? I am taking the position that suicide is bad and not a good thing that God wants but if the guy had kept on living would have killed more strangers? I dunno. Plus there is the issue of assisted suicide, when people feel there life gets to be too much they can now get a Dr. to aid their transition to the next life. Did God see all that coming and quality of life comes into play, why do some people live in agony for years and others simply don't-they get sick and 2 weeks later they are gone. Does he know when we'll die but may not agree with the apparatus to get us to the next life? but when does he know all this and can we change any of it and how?

[Jeanne]

I can't really answer...so many patriarchal blessings that have been shared with me by LDS family...are no longer here and died young. 

[Tacenda]

6 minutes ago, Duncan said:

I am on the fence about this, I mean does he know who will commit suicide? if so is he trying to prevent it? I think about that odd knucklehead who randomly shot that older man and then he escaped and the good folks at McDonalds stopped him and then he down himself a mischief. I just wonder when did God know all that and did he do anything to prevent it? I am taking the position that suicide is bad and not a good thing that God wants but if the guy had kept on living would have killed more strangers? I dunno. Plus there is the issue of assisted suicide, when people feel there life gets to be too much they can now get a Dr. to aid their transition to the next life. Did God see all that coming and quality of life comes into play, why do some people live in agony for years and others simply don't-they get sick and 2 weeks later they are gone. Does he know when we'll die but may not agree with the apparatus to get us to the next life? but when does he know all this and can we change any of it and how?

I'm on board with this also, I don't believe God knows when we all die, maybe some. We are driving the boat, not God. Maybe if we'd listen more he'd help steer the boat. But he can't stop us, or else how can there be so much tragedy to the innocent in the world. And then the struggle with, do angels come down and help? Why does God send some angels here and there but not to others? Maybe he does and we don't know it? 

Maybe those starving children are being comforted, despite their condition, since angels can only do so much? I've heard of stories coming from sexually abused children being comforted during abuse and taken up for awhile until the ugly deed is done. I hope with all my might that that is occurring.

No, I don't believe God knows when we'll die all the time, maybe He knows many but not all. 

[Johnnie Cake]

My reason for raising this question was due to a recent podcast I listened to which exposed a flaw in a revelation given to Joseph Smith.

In April of 1838 God called David W. Patton on a mission. We read about this calling in D&C  114:1

Quote

1 Verily thus saith the Lord: It is wisdom in my servant David W. Patten, that he settle up all his business as soon as he possibly can, and make a disposition of his merchandise, that he may perform a mission unto me next spring, in company with others, even twelve including himself, to testify of my name and bear glad tidings unto all the world.

 

All this is fair and good...until we learned that David Patton is killed the very same year that the revelation is given in the battle of Crooked River in October of 1838 and never lives to "Next Spring" to serve his mission that God called him to along with other members of the 12 .  Why would God call David on a mission when he knew he would be killed in October of that same year and not be around to serve his mission the next spring.  If God knows everything and knows when Patton was going to die, why issue the mission call in the first place? To what end?  I can only reconcile this by assuming that Joseph just made the revelation up...I'm curious how a believer reconciles this problem.

Edited April 20, 2017 by Johnnie Cake

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

............................................................

Does God, being this all knowing, omnipotent, omnipresent & omniscient being, know how and when we, His children, will die?  A simple yes or no will suffice.  

The omni-language you quote here is not biblical and is meant to be taken as figurative.

[CV75]

2 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

A simple yes or no will suffice.

Suffice for what? That's not how life, or good questions, work.

[Johnnie Cake]

2 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

The omni-language you quote here is not biblical and is meant to be taken as figurative.

Ahhh...I was quoting LDS Prophets...and Elder Bednar says his and their words are scripture...should I dismiss Elder Bednar's words?  Are you suggesting we should dismiss their words?

[Johnnie Cake]

15 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Suffice for what? That's not how life, or good questions, work.

Please feel welcome to offer any answer you would like to...I was attempting to make it less complicated...but you are welcome to offer any answer, nuanced or exact you like

Edited April 20, 2017 by Johnnie Cake

[Robert F. Smith]

9 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

Ahhh...I was quoting LDS Prophets...and Elder Bednar says his and their words are scripture...should I dismiss Elder Bednar's words?  Are you suggesting we should dismiss their words?

Do you know what "figurative" means?  Prophets use that word all the time.  I can cite sources, if you need them.

[Johnnie Cake]

5 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Do you know what "figurative" means?  Prophets use that word all the time.  I can cite sources, if you need them.

I'm well aware of the term...are you suggesting that Elder Bednar did not mean what he said and was talking figuratively? And when Elder Hales says that God knows all these things...though omnipotent and omniscient, all powerful and all knowing" he was talking figuratively and we should not be talking him at his word?

Edited April 20, 2017 by Johnnie Cake

[stemelbow]

Beats the hell out of me.

[bluebell]

19 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

My reason for raising this question was due to a recent podcast I listened to which exposed a flaw in a revelation given to Joseph Smith.

In April of 1838 God called David W. Patton on a mission. We read about this calling in D&C  114:1

 

All this is fair and good...until we learned that David Patton is killed the very same year that the revelation is given in the battle of Crooked River in October of 1838 and never lives to "Next Spring" to serve his mission that God called him to along with other members of the 12 .  Why would God call David on a mission when he knew he would be killed in October of that same year and not be around to serve his mission the next spring.  If God knows everything and knows when Patton was going to die, why issue the mission call in the first place? To what end?  I can only reconcile this by assuming that Joseph just made the revelation up...I'm curious how a believer reconciles this problem.

I assume that God does things often for the growth they provide at least as much or more than the outcome.  And also as part of His perfect judgment of us that is to come.

 Some reasons that God might have called Patton to a mission he never got to serve-

• Patton doing all that work to get his affairs in order before hand was a huge blessing for his family.
• Patton's testimony and faith in Christ grew as he listened to the commandments of God and set about to obey them, seeing the hand of God in his life as he did so.
• The person who killed Patton will be held accountable for the use of his agency to deny someone else the ability to fulfill a mission given to him by God.  (the principle outlined in Alma 14:11, which says that God allows men the opportunity to fulfill their evil designs so-that the judgments which he shall exercise upon them in his wrath may be just; and the blood of the innocent shall stand as a witness against them, yea, and cry mightily against them at the last day.)
• Patton had been praying to receive a mission call, and God honored His faith by granting the request, even though he knew he would never be able to fulfill it.
• Other things I can't think of.

[JLHPROF]

32 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

My reason for raising this question was due to a recent podcast I listened to which exposed a flaw in a revelation given to Joseph Smith.

In April of 1838 God called David W. Patton on a mission. We read about this calling in D&C  114:1

 

All this is fair and good...until we learned that David Patton is killed the very same year that the revelation is given in the battle of Crooked River in October of 1838 and never lives to "Next Spring" to serve his mission that God called him to along with other members of the 12 .  Why would God call David on a mission when he knew he would be killed in October of that same year and not be around to serve his mission the next spring.  If God knows everything and knows when Patton was going to die, why issue the mission call in the first place? To what end?  I can only reconcile this by assuming that Joseph just made the revelation up...I'm curious how a believer reconciles this problem.

David W. Patten asked for a different calling.
God honored his agency and request as an Apostle.

Edited April 20, 2017 by JLHPROF

[Stargazer]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

Well, if you limit me to yes or no, I'll go with yes.

But don't forget about agency.

Of course God knows when we will die.  He has already seen it, and he has seen everyone's death from the beginning until the end of this universe.  What we limited mortals find hard to understand is just this: having created the Universe, he must necessarily exist outside of it -- otherwise he would be in the position of having created himself.  This means that he exists outside of Time itself.  He knows what I have done from birth unto death: although from my perspective death is still somewhat far off (or so I hope!), he has seen it.  You bring up agency, but of course God's knowing every step of our lives in advance doesn't change the fact of agency.

When I first realized that this particular aspect of his omnipotence was a fact, it bothered me.  Especially in regard to agency.  But after a great deal of pondering the matter became clear to me.  The best way to explain it is to consider the matter of Hitler.  Don't worry, this isn't an instance of Godwin's Law.  You all know what Hitler did.  Let's say that one of us developed a time machine and decided to go into the past in order to kill him before he did what he did.  His history indicates that during the Battle of the Somme in October 1916, he was wounded in the left thigh by a shell exploding where he was stationed. Hitler spent almost two months in hospital, returning to his regiment on 5 March 1917.  So in your new time machine you go back, having first learned German perfectly enough to impersonate a doctor, and while pretending to examine him, in the guise of treatment you give him an injection of a quick-acting poison.  He dies.  Have you committed murder, that is, the killing of an innocent person?  Yes, you have!  You may have prevented World War II and 60 million deaths, but Hitler has done nothing to deserve dying.  Your foreknowledge of what Hitler will do (and from your perspective has already done, and this is key) has nothing to do with the fact that he hasn't yet done it. The fact that you know what he will do does not erase Hitler's agency -- unless you stop him from doing it!  The point is, Hitler knows nothing about what he will do, and from the moment of his birth all his choices are a mystery to him.  Until he finally makes them.

God knows the end from the beginning.  In fact, he knew what all outcomes would be at the same instant he created the Universe, but his knowledge of it did not change anything, and does not affect the result -- at least from the point of view of our agency. Incidentally, God's interactions with the Universe in the Universe's own Time are also perfectly factored in to the chain of events.  Of course we don't understand this.  We don't even understand the nature of matter itself.  The Nobel Prize winning physicist Richard Feynman once said about our knowledge of quantum mechanics (how the Universe works): "I think I can safely say that nobody understands Quantum Mechanics."  More to the point, Feynman also wrote:

I am going to tell you what nature behaves like. If you will simply admit 
that maybe she does behave like this, you will find her a delightful, 
entrancing thing. Do not keep saying to yourself, if you can possibly avoid 
it, 'But how can it be like that?' ...Nobody knows how it can be like that.

We will not surprise God when we get to the end of things.  You, my friend, will not suddenly pop into the Celestial Kingdom and proclaim, "Surprise! You didn't think I would, but I made it after all!"  God will roll his eyes at that -- because he saw it at the beginning.

In the moment before God created the Universe nothing had happened, simply because the Universe didn't yet exist.  At the moment that he created it, from God's point of view it had all happened, and he knew what had gone down.  At the moment of creation, I suppose that we were all standing with him observing the momentous occasion, and as it says in Job 38:7, we shouted for joy.  And of course, at that very moment we were cast into that Universe that was being created, and into the stream of Time which was part and parcel of it, each of us in our place in that Time, to act and to be acted upon.  While here, we see as through a glass, darkly, to quote Paul, and we see things only from moment to moment, but God has seen it all.  Because from his point of view, it has already happened.

 

 

[Johnnie Cake]

8 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I assume that God does things often for the growth they provide at least as much or more than the outcome.  And also as part of His perfect judgment of us that is to come.

 Some reasons that God might have called Patton to a mission he never got to serve-

• Patton doing all that work to get his affairs in order before hand was a huge blessing for his family.
• Patton's testimony and faith in Christ grew as he listened to the commandments of God and set about to obey them, seeing the hand of God in his life as he did so.
• The person who killed Patton will be held accountable for the use of his agency to deny someone else the ability to fulfill a mission given to him by God.  (the principle outlined in Alma 14:11, which says that God allows men the opportunity to fulfill their evil designs so-that the judgments which he shall exercise upon them in his wrath may be just; and the blood of the innocent shall stand as a witness against them, yea, and cry mightily against them at the last day.)
• Patton had been praying to receive a mission call, and God honored His faith by granting the request, even though he knew he would never be able to fulfill it.
• Other things I can't think of.

I agree with you bluebell each of these reasons could be legitimate reasons for why God might issue a mission call....but that does not seem to appear to be what happened in this case...God issued a specific calling for a particular place and time and with specific companion who would serve alongside Patton.  Had God's motivation for issuing the mission call been any of the reasons you've provided...why wouldn't God have just issued a general call instead of such a specific calling including companions and a time frame?

[Johnnie Cake]

21 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

David W. Patten asked for a different calling.
God honored his agency and request as an Apostle.

Really? conjecture or can you back this claim up?

[Johnnie Cake]

16 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

Of course God knows when we will die.  He has already seen it, and he has seen everyone's death from the beginning until the end of this universe.  What we limited mortals find hard to understand is just this: having created the Universe, he must necessarily exist outside of it -- otherwise he would be in the position of having created himself.  This means that he exists outside of Time itself.  He knows what I have done from birth unto death: although from my perspective death is still somewhat far off (or so I hope!), he has seen it.  You bring up agency, but of course God's knowing every step of our lives in advance doesn't change the fact of agency.

When I first realized that this particular aspect of his omnipotence was a fact, it bothered me.  Especially in regard to agency.  But after a great deal of pondering the matter became clear to me.  The best way to explain it is to consider the matter of Hitler.  Don't worry, this isn't an instance of Godwin's Law.  You all know what Hitler did.  Let's say that one of us developed a time machine and decided to go into the past in order to kill him before he did what he did.  His history indicates that during the Battle of the Somme in October 1916, he was wounded in the left thigh by a shell exploding where he was stationed. Hitler spent almost two months in hospital, returning to his regiment on 5 March 1917.  So in your new time machine you go back, having first learned German perfectly enough to impersonate a doctor, and while pretending to examine him, in the guise of treatment you give him an injection of a quick-acting poison.  He dies.  Have you committed murder, that is, the killing of an innocent person?  Yes, you have!  You may have prevented World War II and 60 million deaths, but Hitler has done nothing to deserve dying.  Your foreknowledge of what Hitler will do (and from your perspective has already done, and this is key) has nothing to do with the fact that he hasn't yet done it. The fact that you know what he will do does not erase Hitler's agency -- unless you stop him from doing it!  The point is, Hitler knows nothing about what he will do, and from the moment of his birth all his choices are a mystery to him.  Until he finally makes them.

God knows the end from the beginning.  In fact, he knew what all outcomes would be at the same instant he created the Universe, but his knowledge of it did not change anything, and does not affect the result -- at least from the point of view of our agency. Incidentally, God's interactions with the Universe in the Universe's own Time are also perfectly factored in to the chain of events.  Of course we don't understand this.  We don't even understand the nature of matter itself.  The Nobel Prize winning physicist Richard Feynman once said about our knowledge of quantum mechanics (how the Universe works): "I think I can safely say that nobody understands Quantum Mechanics."  More to the point, Feynman also wrote:

I am going to tell you what nature behaves like. If you will simply admit 
that maybe she does behave like this, you will find her a delightful, 
entrancing thing. Do not keep saying to yourself, if you can possibly avoid 
it, 'But how can it be like that?' ...Nobody knows how it can be like that.

We will not surprise God when we get to the end of things.  You, my friend, will not suddenly pop into the Celestial Kingdom and proclaim, "Surprise! You didn't think I would, but I made it after all!"  God will roll his eyes at that -- because he saw it at the beginning.

In the moment before God created the Universe nothing had happened, simply because the Universe didn't yet exist.  At the moment that he created it, from God's point of view it had all happened, and he knew what had gone down.  At the moment of creation, I suppose that we were all standing with him observing the momentous occasion, and as it says in Job 38:7, we shouted for joy.  And of course, at that very moment we were cast into that Universe that was being created, and into the stream of Time which was part and parcel of it, each of us in our place in that Time, to act and to be acted upon.  While here, we see as through a glass, darkly, to quote Paul, and we see things only from moment to moment, but God has seen it all.  Because from his point of view, it has already happened.

 

 

I enjoyed reading this...thanks

[thesometimesaint]

1 hour ago, Duncan said:

I am on the fence about this, I mean does he know who will commit suicide? if so is he trying to prevent it? I think about that odd knucklehead who randomly shot that older man and then he escaped and the good folks at McDonalds stopped him and then he down himself a mischief. I just wonder when did God know all that and did he do anything to prevent it? I am taking the position that suicide is bad and not a good thing that God wants but if the guy had kept on living would have killed more strangers? I dunno. Plus there is the issue of assisted suicide, when people feel there life gets to be too much they can now get a Dr. to aid their transition to the next life. Did God see all that coming and quality of life comes into play, why do some people live in agony for years and others simply don't-they get sick and 2 weeks later they are gone. Does he know when we'll die but may not agree with the apparatus to get us to the next life? but when does he know all this and can we change any of it and how?

I have three children. I know that they all would at some point touch a hot stove. I told them not to, and did what I could to stop them. But they still touched the hot stove. We will all die at some point whether gently in our sleep or in prolonged agony. The miracle from God is that someday we will all be Resurrected.

[JLHPROF]

9 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

Really? conjecture or can you back this claim up?

 

• "According to the Prophet Joseph Smith, David Patten had confided to him sometime in the early summer of 1838 that he, Patten, had been praying and 'had asked the Lord to let him die the death of a martyr.' Lycurgus Wilson, who wrote of the life of Elder Patten, suggested that this desire to die as a martyr probably came as a result of the revelation in section 114.  The Prophet expressed sorrow at such a request, 'for,' according to Wilson, the prophet stated, 'when a man of your faith asks the Lord for anything, he generally gets it.' (David F. Boone, Studies in Scripture, Vol. 1: The Doctrine and Covenants, ed. by Robert L. Millet and Kent P. Jackson, [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1989], 440) 
   

Simple Timeline.
February 1835 - Patten ordained an Apostle of Jesus Christ
April 1838 - Patten asks Joseph for a personal revelation and D&C 114 is received calling him on a mission.
Early Summer (June?) 1838 - Apostle Patten began petitioning the Lord to allow him to be a martyr.
October 1838 - Patten receives his request.

 

 

[Jeanne]

38 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

 

• "According to the Prophet Joseph Smith, David Patten had confided to him sometime in the early summer of 1838 that he, Patten, had been praying and 'had asked the Lord to let him die the death of a martyr.' Lycurgus Wilson, who wrote of the life of Elder Patten, suggested that this desire to die as a martyr probably came as a result of the revelation in section 114.  The Prophet expressed sorrow at such a request, 'for,' according to Wilson, the prophet stated, 'when a man of your faith asks the Lord for anything, he generally gets it.' (David F. Boone, Studies in Scripture, Vol. 1: The Doctrine and Covenants, ed. by Robert L. Millet and Kent P. Jackson, [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1989], 440) 
   

Simple Timeline.
February 1835 - Patten ordained an Apostle of Jesus Christ
April 1838 - Patten asks Joseph for a personal revelation and D&C 114 is received calling him on a mission.
Early Summer (June?) 1838 - Apostle Patten began petitioning the Lord to allow him to be a martyr.
October 1838 - Patten receives his request.

 

 

This gives me the heebie jeebies...