Why The Book of Mormon?

[hope_for_things]

9 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I do not know that I agree that the characters are one-dimensional. The heroes have flaws. Nephi's manner riled up his brothers. Jacob seemed almost depressed. Captain Moroni lost his temper and ruined his own plans. Alma the Elder was naive about sin clawing into the church he led. Aaron used a really bad missionary approach in reaching the Lamanites at first. King Lamont and his father rashly ordered their Lamanite subject to listen tothe missionaries whether they wanted to or not; well-intentioned but may have contributed to the ensuing angry backlash when their opponents overthrew the government and started killing believers. Mormon violated the commandments Jesus gave when he swore an oath not to lead the Nephite army. Moroni seems to have been almost neurotic with paranoia that his readers would find his written communication puerile and awkward.

The villains are also not one-dimensionally evil. Laman and Lemuel regularly repented and sought their rights of inheritance according to the Law of Moses that their younger brother would gain. Sherem was loyal to the scriptures in his fundamentalist way. King Noah was a popular and loved monarch until things fell apart. Nehor sought a more upbeat and happy society free from scriptural harshness. Korihor had a simple and almost child-like philosophy, one would almost think he read Ayn Rand. Amulon was dealing harshly with Alma but he had a real case to believe he was an unpatriotic traitor. The Zoramites were courageous patriotic church goers who observed and insisted upon proper dress standards in church at all times. Amlici wanted a stronger central government.

 

Its fine if you find these stories to be more complex and rich with meaning, at times in my life I've found inspiration in these stories as well.  I think they reflect the attitudes of the author, a young man in his early 20s feeling a spiritual awakening, going through times of agony, feeling a call to repent and to dedicate his life to a purpose.  Keep the commandments and you'll prosper, disobey and you won't.  This mantra is just played out over and over for a reason because he feels very strongly about this principle.  The good guys prosper, bad guys don't.  God has it all planned out.  Anyway, I just don't find the stories to be very deep anymore, and this is sad for me because in my 20s I really loved the BoM.  

I studied it again last year, trying and searching for something to grab me, to pull me back into the narratives and unfortunately I couldn't.  I'm sure that my faith journey has effected this to some extent, but I am able to study the Bible now and even the D&C this year I'm finding more interest studying, because at least I'm searching for historical context in the text.  

[snowflake]

4 hours ago, Bobbieaware said:

Joseph Smith never said the Book of Mormon is perfect, only that it is the most correct book ever written. Moroni (he wrote the title page) appears to agree with Joseph Smith because on the title page he uses the phrase "And now, if there are faults they are the mistakes of men," which appears to indicate he's unaware of there being any mistakes in the text. And I'm in the same boat with Moroni because if there are any doctrinal errors in the book I have yet to find one.

As for as the changes made to text, none of those changes alter the basic meaning of any of the passages, but serve to only subtly clarify. For instance, throughout the Book of Mormon Jesus Christ is called God. So when the most major textual change made to the text (1 Nephi 11:18) goes from saying Mary is the mother of God to Mary is the mother of the Son of God it's no big deal because throughout the Book of Mormon Christ is referred to as being both God and the Son of God, so that particular change of text does not serve as evidence that there have ever been any doctrinal inconsistencies within the book. (By the way, it's my opinion that the first edition rendition of 1 Nephi 11:18 accurately reflects what was written on the plates. And why not, for is not Mary the mother of God according to the flesh because Christ truly is God made flesh?)

When asking today's Mormons if Jesus is God they flat out deny it.  They insist that Jesus is the Christ the son of the living God (Big difference from God in the flesh).  So that specific change of the text has absolutely transformed their view of Jesus as God.  This is a huge distinction between people of the LDS faith and traditional Christianity.  I've always thought that the BOM description of Jesus as God is clearer than in many biblical passages. Your references above are a perfect example of a massive doctrinal shift IMHO.

Besides, if it is the most correct book ever written why change anything, keep it as pure as it was when Joseph and Moroni said it was correct.

[Jane_Doe]

10 minutes ago, snowflake said:

When asking today's Mormons if Jesus is God they flat out deny it.  They insist that Jesus is the Christ the son of the living God (Big difference from God in the flesh).  So that specific change of the text has absolutely transformed their view of Jesus as God.  This is a huge distinction between people of the LDS faith and traditional Christianity.  I've always thought that the BOM description of Jesus as God is clearer than in many biblical passages. Your references above are a perfect example of a massive doctrinal shift IMHO.

Personally I find that many mainstream Christians totally ignore the Father and/or fall into modalism.  Christ is a different person than the Father, both LDS and Athanasian Christians agree on that.  

[clarkgoble]

13 minutes ago, snowflake said:

When asking today's Mormons if Jesus is God they flat out deny it.  They insist that Jesus is the Christ the son of the living God (Big difference from God in the flesh).  So that specific change of the text has absolutely transformed their view of Jesus as God.  This is a huge distinction between people of the LDS faith and traditional Christianity.  I've always thought that the BOM description of Jesus as God is clearer than in many biblical passages. Your references above are a perfect example of a massive doctrinal shift IMHO.

Besides, if it is the most correct book ever written why change anything, keep it as pure as it was when Joseph and Moroni said it was correct.

That is just plain wrong. I've never heard a single Mormon deny Jesus is God. I'm not going to say there aren't people who say that. Just that I've not met them.

[snowflake]

On ‎4‎/‎6‎/‎2017 at 10:31 AM, Ahab said:

Most people are aware that the Bible is the word of God to ancient people who really lived and I think modern Prophets focus on wanting others to appreciate  the Book of Mormon for what it is because fewer people appreciate it. Plus the Book of Mormon is more relevant to these days than the Bible as the way to bring more people to a greater understanding of Jesus Christ and his work in these latter days.

What are the key Mormon doctrines that I would find in the BOM that are missing from the Bible?

[thesometimesaint]

The Apostasy and Restoration.

[snowflake]

8 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

Personally I find that many mainstream Christians totally ignore the Father and/or fall into modalism.  Christ is a different person than the Father, both LDS and Athanasian Christians a

 

 

John 1:1 says:

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

² The same was in the beginning with God.

And verse 14:

 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

This is a key verse to understanding Jesus as God in the flesh.

I'm very aware that the LDS Jesus and mainstream Christians view the person of Jesus differently.

[snowflake]

3 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

The Apostasy and Restoration.

Where specifically can I read about these in the BOM?

[Tacenda]

As much as I try to uphold the Bible to be just as important as the BoM, maybe deep down I'm not happy with many things in the Bible, such as incest, God's wrath on people and the killings, plus the way women are slaves, and the way homosexuality is looked at.

I believe in a way, the Bible could be why there are just as many killings as the Quran may incite. I might be struck by lightning for say such, but hoping that a lot of the Bible is man-made and God will be on my side for saying so.

When I mention killings, I include the many LGBTQ members of society that have killed themselves over it. And I'm going to include how women have been abused and killed because the Bible puts them into a servitude mode and as second class. There again, I will probably get shot down for this view as well, I'm sure.

But I believe it, and am not alone. I remember reading this about former president Jimmy Carter on women's rights. And how he is losing his religion over it somewhat.  http://in.reuters.com/article/women-rights-carter-idINKBN0NM3PZ20150501

 

[clarkgoble]

28 minutes ago, snowflake said:

What are the key Mormon doctrines that I would find in the BOM that are missing from the Bible?

The idea of life being a probationary period, the idea of judgment being restoration, the idea of covenants made to the American people, prophecies of the last days related to the Americas, the status of children in terms of accountability, the idea that the atonement makes us free to choose good or evil, etc.

[clarkgoble]

19 minutes ago, snowflake said:

Where specifically can I read about these in the BOM?

Nephi's vision among other places.

[thesometimesaint]

20 minutes ago, snowflake said:

John 1:1 says:

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

² The same was in the beginning with God.

And verse 14:

 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

This is a key verse to understanding Jesus as God in the flesh.

I'm very aware that the LDS Jesus and mainstream Christians view the person of Jesus differently.

Not that much differently.

SEE https://www.lds.org/ensign/2000/04/the-living-christ-the-testimony-of-the-apostles-the-church-of-jesus-christ-of-latter-day-saints?lang=eng

[thesometimesaint]

11 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

As much as I try to uphold the Bible to be just as important as the BoM, maybe deep down I'm not happy with many things in the Bible, such as incest, God's wrath on people and the killings, plus the way women are slaves, and the way homosexuality is looked at.

I believe in a way, the Bible could be why there are just as many killings as the Quran may incite. I might be struck by lightning for say such, but hoping that a lot of the Bible is man-made and God will be on my side for saying so.

When I mention killings, I include the many LGBTQ members of society that have killed themselves over it. And I'm going to include how women have been abused and killed because the Bible puts them into a servitude mode and as second class. There again, I will probably get shot down for this view as well, I'm sure.

But I believe it, and am not alone. I remember reading this about former president Jimmy Carter on women's rights. And how he is losing his religion over it somewhat.  http://in.reuters.com/article/women-rights-carter-idINKBN0NM3PZ20150501

 

Any book of Scripture is just man's feeble attempt to understand God.

[snowflake]

15 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

The idea of life being a probationary period, the idea of judgment being restoration, the idea of covenants made to the American people, prophecies of the last days related to the Americas, the status of children in terms of accountability, the idea that the atonement makes us free to choose good or evil, etc.

Not sure most of these are doctrines, but ok, what about the temple, temple ceremonies (like in the OT) and priesthood, baptism for the dead,  LDS heavy hitter doctrines, where are they? The BOM claims to be the "fullness of the everlasting gospel"?

[Tacenda]

58 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

That is just plain wrong. I've never heard a single Mormon deny Jesus is God. I'm not going to say there aren't people who say that. Just that I've not met them.

I would have been in that category before getting information that Jesus is the God of this world. Because in a lot of LDS minds, Jesus is our elder brother, not God Himself.

It can be rather confusing at times. And I believe that the leaders of the church are integrating that Jesus is God, maybe as a way of fitting in, I don't know.

It was interesting when viewing the production, "Saviour of the World" that my stake put on a few years ago, they had Jesus as a God as the narrative at the beginning of the play which sort of made me shocked because it sounded like the Trinity. I still want to believe Jesus is God incarnate, I like it, maybe I lean towards being a non LDS Christian. 

But really what the church is saying is that He is the God of this world? Yes, kind of confusing to say the least, when we're taught to pray to God in the name of Jesus, so what does that mean exactly, that Jesus isn't the God of this world?

 

Edited April 7, 2017 by Tacenda

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, snowflake said:

When asking today's Mormons if Jesus is God they flat out deny it.

I flat out deny that I flat out deny it.

Edited April 7, 2017 by The Nehor

[snowflake]

3 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I flat out deny that I flat out deny it.

LOL!

[Calm]

Originally delivered in 79:

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1991/04/jesus-christ-our-savior-our-god?lang=eng

"Because He was God—even the Son of God"

"He was God in the flesh—even the Son of God."

"Jesus Christ: Our Savior, Our God"

"He has said: “For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent; … which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink.” (D&C 19:16, 18.)"

"Because Jesus Christ is God—even the Son of God—He will come again as He promised."

 

[snowflake]

43 minutes ago, Calm said:

Originally delivered in 79:

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1991/04/jesus-christ-our-savior-our-god?lang=eng

"Because He was God—even the Son of God"

"He was God in the flesh—even the Son of God."

"Jesus Christ: Our Savior, Our God"

"He has said: “For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent; … which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink.” (D&C 19:16, 18.)"

"Because Jesus Christ is God—even the Son of God—He will come again as He promised."

 

Great scriptures, sounds so much like the trinity, I just don't understand why Mormonism seems to "back off" these scriptures. If you believe Jesus is God, then why do the LDS refuse to pray and worship Jesus as God, no? In the BOM the apostles worship Jesus.

[Gray]

32 minutes ago, snowflake said:

Great scriptures, sounds so much like the trinity, I just don't understand why Mormonism seems to "back off" these scriptures. If you believe Jesus is God, then why do the LDS refuse to pray and worship Jesus as God, no? In the BOM the apostles worship Jesus.

Mormon theology can be described in such a way that it sounds very trinitarian. In Mormonism the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are three persons in one Godhead. Each of them is "God".

In the trinity the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are three persons in one God. Each of them is "God".

The difference is in Mormonism the math adds up to three Gods, three persons, one Godhead. In the trinity the math adds up to one God, three persons. 

Edited April 7, 2017 by Gray

[Calm]

Nonofficial, pretty typical in my experience answer:

"Mormons pray—a lot, actually. They pray to God, not Jesus Christ, but in the name of Jesus Christ. When they start a prayer, they begin by saying, “Dear Heavenly Father” or something similar. At the end of the prayer, they say, “In the name of Jesus Christ, Amen.”

Although some Christians are offended by this, it is actually exactly what Jesus Christ Himself taught us to do in the New Testament of the Bible. Let’s take a look at three verses in the book of John and one in James:

 “And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.” John 14:13-14.

“Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.” John 15:16.

And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you. Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full. John 16:23-24.

If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him (James 1:5).

All these verses tell us to pray to God, not Jesus Christ. They instruct us to ask in Jesus’ name. This is how Mormons pray because it is how Jesus told us to pray. In fact, He prayed this way Himself, although of course, He didn’t pray in His name, since He was offering the prayer. At the end of this article, you can watch a video of Jesus offering the Great Intercessory Prayer, with the text taken from the King James translation of the Bible."

https://ldsblogs.com/11129/why-dont-mormons-pray-directly-to-jesus

Edited April 7, 2017 by Calm

[Calm]

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1997/04/pray-unto-the-father-in-my-name?lang=eng

"The Lord counseled, or perhaps even commanded, “After this manner therefore pray ye” (Matt. 6:9). Now, focus your minds, and your hearts, on how He began this noble prayer: “Our Father [who] art in heaven” (Matt. 6:9). What a stunning moment it was! What a revelation! “Our Father,” He declared, “Our Father.”

Oh, He could have chosen so many ways to begin the prayer: “O mighty Creator of heaven and earth, O mighty God who is omnipresent, omniscient, or omnipotent.” These grand titles contain grand and noble truths. But He taught in one single word, “Father,” so very much that we need to know, that indeed we long to know. God is our Father. And we are His children."

[Calm]

https://www.lds.org/topics/prayer?lang=eng&old=true

"We are all children of God. He loves us and knows our needs, and He wants us to communicate with Him through prayer. We should pray to Him and no one else. The Lord Jesus Christ commanded, “Ye must always pray unto the Father in my name” (3 Nephi 18:19)."

We pray to the Father because of our desire to be obedient to God the Son, Jesus Christ.

Edited April 7, 2017 by Calm

[Calm]

We do worship the Lord:

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1971/12/how-to-worship?lang=eng

https://www.lds.org/church/news/worship-jesus-by-emulating-him-elder-rasband-teaches?lang=eng

https://www.lds.org/manual/2014-outline-for-sharing-time-families-are-forever/december-we-remember-and-worship-our-savior-jesus-christ?lang=eng

https://www.lds.org/new-era/1973/03/bible-pattern-of-worship?lang=eng

Edited April 7, 2017 by Calm

[pogi]

On 4/5/2017 at 10:32 PM, Rivers said:

President Manson urged us to read the Book of Mormon daily

Which Manson are you talking about? 

 

 

 

Edited April 7, 2017 by pogi