Scripture As Poetry

[JeremyOrbe-Smith]

(Just some thoughts.)

...

I absolutely love the radical materialism and revolutionary physicality of Mormonism. I love that we believe that there is no such thing as immaterial material, and that all spirit is merely matter that is more pure and refined. I love that we believe that Gods have bodies of flesh and bone, and that the same sociality which exists among us here exists among them as well. The Real World is glorious and beautiful.

Nevertheless, I think we tend to take things a little too literally sometimes. In my opinion, much of scripture is also poetry.

Christ's truthful word is like a double-edged flaming sword of truth going out from his mouth to the dividing asunder of both joints and marrow. His voice is like the many powerful rushing waters and great thunder. He is not literally holding a sword between his teeth, and water is not literally pouring from His mouth, and His voice is not literally breaking down actual mountains. The Son of Man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them; He can hardly be interested in killing and destroying His enemies if, as Corinthians says, "the last enemy that shall be destroyed is death" itself.

Christ is the light of truth, which cleaves unto other truth. He is in all things and through all things in that He comprehends their workings; we are meant to emulate Him when we take on His name by an Anointing we have consciously accepted. We don't literally glow, and we're not literally physically present "within" every atom. Like Christ, we are in the midst of others, surrounded by innumerable co-existing, co-eternal Uncreated Intelligences.

The Light of Truth cleaves to those Intelligences who are adopted as Children of God if we unchangingly keep our good covenants in order to receive our garments of light. We can symbolize such covenants in many ways; for instance, we remember Christ's promise to us through the Bread and Wine because His word is like "bread" which can be divided among thousands. Yet He is not literally made out of flour.

The Church of God and the Church of the Adversary exist in the same world; whosoever repenteth and comes towards God by doing what they can to minister to others and be a servant to all, the same is His church. A true and living God is someone who is following the eternal law of justice and therefore working to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of the rest of humanity. There are therefore countless male and female Gods within the Divine Council, and yet they are all One in their hearts because they are working towards the same goal.

But though they are One in intent, they are not literally fused together and indistinguishable from each other. In fact, to try to force One-ness on any other Intelligence without meekness, persuasion, and love unfeigned is to exercise unrighteous dominion. It is only by a free-will choice that others are brought to share Christ's metaphorical "throne." We can be nearer or farther from God physically, but we can also be nearer or farther from the One-ness in our hearts.

Whatever glory (gloria, "fame, renown, honor") we have achieved is like different kingdoms in that they all have many differing degrees; one is like the stars, one is like the moon, one is like the sun. Some people serve and minister to others to a larger degree than others; their "glory" is different, because they've given more of themselves, invested more in others. It is all an internal orientation in the heart.

When we choose outer darkness, it is not a physical darkness we are descending into. Abraham was shown the stars of the night sky and God's glorious work in bringing to pass the immortality and eternal life of humanity over worlds without number; some kinds of darkness can therefore be beautiful, good things. It is rather our self-imposed internal "darkness" which is posed against the "light" of truth; we should accept the "light" from wherever it may come from, including self-reflection in the literal darkness of a moonless night. When we are all willing to receive and give that revelatory love, the entire human world will become like a sea of glass reflecting our good desires like crystal, like an enormous urim and thummim.

When we are "blessed" ("to speak well of"), we are blessed with "light"; the "light" is the truth of the gospel, the Good Story, not a physical light. When we are "cursed" (possibly from Latin cursus, meaning a different "course"?) we are not inundated with malevolent magic causing our cows to stop giving milk, we have simply been judged as not being willing to take part in the Plan of Salvation yet, though we can always repent to set off on the path of our eternal progression - again something we choose. Our blessings (our "glory", our "benediction", our "good-speaking") are therefore conditional on how we act. We can be judged as having "garments" (or "skins") of either darkness or light, but they are utterly unconnected to how much melanin we have or how clean our white shirts are.

A "Promised Land" can be the exact same land as a "Cursed Land" depending on how the people in those lands behave. We can progress between "Kingdoms" if we choose to receive truth let it come from whence it may; we can choose to stagnate and mire ourselves in a "lower" kingdom because we choose not to cleave to more truth and intelligence when it is offered to us like fruit.

The woman of Babylon is not a single woman, she is a Type meant to vividly illustrate certain sins from a particular culturally-bound perspective. Our First Parents are figurative Types as well; Adam's name itself means "Many", as in "humankind", and we are judged for our own works, not someone else's transgression. The many visions of the Tree of Life are metaphors; the fruit itself glows with the light of the truth of the gospel which we can partake of and give to others.

The "fire" and "chains" of Hell are not literal flames or literal chains; they are the burning guilt we feel for our own unrighteous acts which bind us to our own conscious deceptions. "Hell" is a literal place insofar as we ourselves always exist in a specific time and place, and yet Hell can be right next to heaven, as when the rich man died and saw Lazarus in Abraham's bosom. Devils can be real, but there isn't a single "Satan"; we ourselves become Adversaries to each other when we lie and seek after power and authority over others in order to take away Light and indulge in a spirit of bloodshed.

No, even Messengers of Light can Fall; we can't blame our sins on some incorporeal being that's going around possessing people and tossing them into a literal pit of fire against their will. Any true and living God can dwell in the midst of everlasting burnings, because they are willing to receive the burning light of truth. "Serpents", on the other hand, are liars; meanwhile, the Dove is an emblem of peaceful Truth. We are meant to handle serpents without being (metaphorically) "destroyed" by their lies because we are as wise as they are and yet we are also harmless as the Dove.

Even in the middle of the Kingdom of the Adversary, in the very same town there can exist the Kingdom of God in the midst of the hearts of those who are metaphorically of One Body because they are doing whatever they can to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of humanity so that all Intelligences may have Joy. If Saints go to Hell, we'll just follow Jacob and Alma's advice and plant a garden to make it into a Heaven.

So the D&C asks us to "keep [God's] commandments, and seek to bring forth and establish the cause of Zion. Behold, [God] speak unto you, and also to all those who have desires to bring forth and establish this work; and no one can assist in this work except he shall be humble and full of love, having faith, hope, and charity, being temperate in all things, whatsoever shall be entrusted to his care."

[volgadon]

Jeremy, thought provoking post, but I don't see why some things cannot be both poetic, that is, symbolic, and literal. Take light for instance. I think there is definitely a physical element it, but at times almost imperceptible. In a sense, we can glow. This remark by the Rav Kook is something worth considering.

"When I lived in London I used to visit the National Gallery, and my favourite pictures were those of Rembrandt. I really think that Rembrandt was a Tzadik. Do you know that when I first saw Rembrandt's works, they reminded me of the legend about the creation of light? We are told that when God created lighht, it was so strong and pellucid, that one could see from one and of the world to the other, but God was afraid that the wicked might abuse it. What did He do? He reserved that light for the righteous when the Messiah should come. But now and then there are great men who are blessed and privileged to see it. I think that Rembrandt was one of them, and the light in his pictures is the very light that was originally created by God Almighty."

http://asimplejew.bl...t-rav-kook.html

There is no denying that Rembrandt was able to use light to reveal something about his subjects' inner being. We also consist of light. It is one of the foundations of colour!

I love Martin Buber's adaptation of a hasidic teaching on light. I even used it in an Elders' Quorom lesson.

R. Eleazar said: "The light that the Holy One, blessed be He, created on the first day- Adam could see with it from one end of the world to the next. Since the Holy One, blessed be He, looked at the generation of the Deluge and the generation of the Division and saw that their deeds were wicked, He concealed the light from them. And for whom did he conceal it? For the righteous in the future to come."

Hasidim asked: "Where did he conceal it?"

They were answered: "In the Torah."

They asked: "If so, will the Tsadikim not find some of the light as they study Torah?"

They answered: "They certainly will find some."

They asked: "If so, what will the Tsadikim do when they find some of the concealed light in the Torah?"

They answered: "They will reveal it in the way they live."

When we accept more light, it fills us, it becomes part of who we are, driving us to better the world. This is what makes it a powerful force in our lives, but it doesn't take away any physical aspect to light, no matter how imperceptible it is.

Edited August 24, 2012 by volgadon

[USU78]

:clapping:

[wenglund]

Jeremy, thought provoking post, but I don't see why some things cannot be both poetic, that is, symbolic, and literal. Take light for instance. I think there is definitely a physical element it, but at times almost imperceptible. In a sense, we can glow. This remark by the Rav Kook is something worth considering.

"When I lived in London I used to visit the National Gallery, and my favourite pictures were those of Rembrandt. I really think that Rembrandt was a Tzadik. Do you know that when I first saw Rembrandt's works, they reminded me of the legend about the creation of light? We are told that when God created lighht, it was so strong and pellucid, that one could see from one and of the world to the other, but God was afraid that the wicked might abuse it. What did He do? He reserved that light for the righteous when the Messiah should come. But now and then there are great men who are blessed and privileged to see it. I think that Rembrandt was one of them, and the light in his pictures is the very light that was originally created by God Almighty."

http://asimplejew.bl...t-rav-kook.html

There is no denying that Rembrandt was able to use light to reveal something about his subjects' inner being. We also consist of light. It is one of the foundations of colour!

I love Martin Buber's adaptation of a hasidic teaching on light. I even used it in an Elders' Quorom lesson.

R. Eleazar said: "The light that the Holy One, blessed be He, created on the first day- Adam could see with it from one end of the world to the next. Since the Holy One, blessed be He, looked at the generation of the Deluge and the generation of the Division and saw that their deeds were wicked, He concealed the light from them. And for whom did he conceal it? For the righteous in the future to come."

Hasidim asked: "Where did he conceal it?"

They were answered: "In the Torah."

They asked: "If so, will the Tsadikim not find some of the light as they study Torah?"

They answered: "They certainly will find some."

They asked: "If so, what will the Tsadikim do when they find some of the concealed light in the Torah?"

They answered: "They will reveal it in the way they live."

When we accept more light, it fills us, it becomes part of who we are, driving us to better the world. This is what makes it a powerful force in our lives, but it doesn't take away any physical aspect to light, no matter how imperceptible it is.

Essentially, I was going to make the same point (though not as eloquently).

To me, the so-called "radical materialism and revolutionary physicality of Mormonism" in some ways obliterates the distinction between the literal and symbolic as well as between the physical and the spiritual, making all things literal and spiritual before the Lord. [thumbs up]

Yet, not everyone is prepared at this time to receive these tasty things, and so I find Jeremy's over-all point to be well taken.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[mfbukowski]

Very interesting stuff from all.

As most know, I am a strong adovocate of the view that all language is essentially metaphor simply because things are not words.

Somehow whenever we speak of things, we have to capture the experience in symbols and convey the understanding we have assembled in our individual minds to others, and of course since scripture is written in language, it must by necessity also be metaphorical.

When I say that sometimes, people misunderstand and think I am putting scripture in the same category as "myth" which is technically correct in the technical use of the word myth, but incorrect in the ordinary understanding of the word, which implies that myths are just old false stories about the gods, so if one says that scripture is mythology, those who misunderstand it may believe that one is saying that scripture has no value or relevance for our lives; that of course is almost the direct opposite of what I mean to say, especially when I think that scientific discourse is just as much "myth" as is scripture. Both may be myth, but each has its own objective and the problems arise when we think one is discussing the other.

Most of the threads on this board are indeed completely caused by misunderstanding that different types of linguistic discourse have different aims and goals.

I think that scripture is like poetry in many ways, and certainly much of it is poetic- indeed in my opinion, poetry is the most effective means known to man to convey feelings, and especially spiritual feelings, linguistically. (Of course direct revelation by the Spirit is in an entirely different category)

Yet I think it would be a mistake to say that all scripture is poetry- certainly a lot of it is more philosophical in tone, or its intent may be to express doctrine etc. Certainly some of it is intended to be historical discourse and documentation.

I think it is important to evaluate every passage independently to be sure that we are not applying an overall categorization inappropriately in a given case.

[volgadon]

Devils can be real, but there isn't a single "Satan"; we ourselves become Adversaries to each other when we lie and seek after power and authority over others in order to take away Light and indulge in a spirit of bloodshed

I agree that what you've outlined is the most destructive effect of evil, but I don't think this rules out a chief Satan, much as our spreading light, knowledge, education and peace meansthere is no head God. As Rebbe Zimmerman said,

You may call me Terry, you may call me Timmy

You may call me Bobby, you may call me Zimmy

You may call me R.J., you may call me Ray

You may call me anything but no matter what you say

You’re gonna have to serve somebody, yes indeed

You’re gonna have to serve somebody

Well, it may be the devil or it may be the Lord

But you’re gonna have to serve somebody

[mfbukowski]

I agree that what you've outlined is the most destructive effect of evil, but I don't think this rules out a chief Satan, much as our spreading light, knowledge, education and peace meansthere is no head God. As Rebbe Zimmerman said,

You may call me Terry, you may call me Timmy

You may call me Bobby, you may call me Zimmy

You may call me R.J., you may call me Ray

You may call me anything but no matter what you say

You’re gonna have to serve somebody, yes indeed

You’re gonna have to serve somebody

Well, it may be the devil or it may be the Lord

But you’re gonna have to serve somebody

Wonderful.

I wonder how many here are old enough to know who wrote this?

Sometime we gotta get together and just listen to music- you bring yours, I'll bring mine!

[Gervin]

Wonderful.

I wonder how many here are old enough to know who wrote this?

Sometime we gotta get together and just listen to music- you bring yours, I'll bring mine!

going to see Zimmy next week and looking forward to it

[mfbukowski]

going to see Zimmy next week and looking forward to it

I need to make my avatar's eyes green!

[wenglund]

going to see Zimmy next week and looking forward to it.

I hope you aren't referring to Urban dictionary definition #4: "A Zimbabwean prostitute overseas. Often found in Vegas, Los Angeles, and London."

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Gervin]

I hope you aren't referring to Urban dictionary definition #4: "A Zimbabwean prostitute overseas. Often found in Vegas, Los Angeles, and London."

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

no, definition #1 but thanks for checking -- It's a road trip with a buddy of mine who turned me on to Dylan when I was 11 ... many, many, many years ago.

[USU78]

It's a-hard . . .

[Gervin]

It's a-hard . . .

amen ... sortofa prophetic voice ...

[mfbukowski]

It's a-hard . . .

I wonder if they have special wheel chair seating and an extra contingent of paramedics for those who are forever young?

[ANACO]

The earth rolls upon her wings, and the sun giveth his light by day,

and the moon giveth her light by night, and the stars also give their light,

as they roll upon their wings in their glory, in the midst of the power of God.

poetic and true.

[mfbukowski]

I had the amazingly good fortune to live in Greenwich Village, just off Washington Square in 1970-73. Pretty amazing stuff. I literally bumped into John Lennon when I stepped backward without looking where I was going, backing up from looking into a shop window. Somebody with a Liverpool accent said "Sorry, man", and I looked up and saw Yoko kind of giving me a dirty look. (clearly it was my fault)

All I saw was his back as he strode passed me, followed by a bunch of people chasing him, and someone said "Hey man, you just bumped into John Lennon!"

Dylan's brownstone was around the corner, and down the block and around the corner the other way was Electric Lady studios on W 4th street.

It was pretty amazing.

[Gervin]

I had the amazingly good fortune to live in Greenwich Village, just off Washington Square in 1970-73. Pretty amazing stuff. I literally bumped into John Lennon when I stepped backward without looking where I was going, backing up from looking into a shop window. Somebody with a Liverpool accent said "Sorry, man", and I looked up and saw Yoko kind of giving me a dirty look. (clearly it was my fault)

All I saw was his back as he strode passed me, followed by a bunch of people chasing him, and someone said "Hey man, you just bumped into John Lennon!"

Dylan's brownstone was around the corner, and down the block and around the corner the other way was Electric Lady studios on W 4th street.

It was pretty amazing.

& to bring it (all back home) full circle, his new album coming out 9/11 has a tribute song to John L.

[Flyonthewall]

I agree that what you've outlined is the most destructive effect of evil, but I don't think this rules out a chief Satan, much as our spreading light, knowledge, education and peace meansthere is no head God. As Rebbe Zimmerman said,

You may call me Terry, you may call me Timmy

You may call me Bobby, you may call me Zimmy

You may call me R.J., you may call me Ray

You may call me anything but no matter what you say

You’re gonna have to serve somebody, yes indeed

You’re gonna have to serve somebody

Well, it may be the devil or it may be the Lord

But you’re gonna have to serve somebody

Here I thought this was a Ray J Johnson Schtick...

[urroner]

To put in my two cents worth in this discussion, I suffer occasionally from depression. Years ago, I was being ripped apart by a terrible bout and I said things during that time that weren't exactly the truth and even wrote some of it down. Years later, I was able to find those writings again and found out that most of what I had written was free verse and had some untruths about my past. I had even convinced people during the bout that those things had really happened. Did I feel bad about coming up with those stories, about not telling the truth? No. I was just trying to express the pain I was going through and, let me tell you, unless one has suffered depression, it's very difficult for that person to truly understand the depth of the desolation and agony I was going through. At the time of writing those things, I had to make the attempt to express those feelings, even if it meant making up stories.

I don't think that the scriptures are lies, but part of them are attempts of the writers to express their emotions they are experiencing at their heart's core and that is very difficult and those attempts can often be taken out of context and completely misunderstood. For example, the prophet Mormon is attempting to convey his feelings about what is happening around him, the evilness of the Nephites and the Lamanites. In Mormon 9:9, he said "And notwithstanding this great abomination of the Lamanites, it doth not exceed that of our people in Moriantum. For behold, many of the daughters of the Lamanites have they taken prisoners; and after depriving them of that which was most dear and precious above all things, which is chastity and virtue—"

This was read in Sunday School years ago and some of the people in the class protested rather strongly that this was false doctrine. How could chastity and virtue being most dear and precious above all things. Should the daughters of the Lamanites have killed themselves before being raped.

It was at this time that I realized that maybe Mormon was going through something similar that I had gone through. The way his people had behaved had caused his almost overriding anguish and he was just trying to express that anguish through words.

Edited August 25, 2012 by urroner

[mfbukowski]

& to bring it (all back home) full circle, his new album coming out 9/11 has a tribute song to John L.

Hmmm- insider information?

[wenglund]

To put in my two cents worth in this discussion, I suffer occasionally from depression. Years ago, I was being ripped apart by a terrible bout and I said things during that time that weren't exactly the truth and even wrote some of it down. Years later, I was able to find those writings again and found out that most of what I had written was free verse and had some untruths about my past. I had even convinced people during the bout that those things had really happened. Did I feel bad about coming up with those stories, about not telling the truth? No. I was just trying to express the pain I was going through and, let me tell you, unless one has suffered depression, it's very difficult for that person to truly understand the depth of the desolation and agony I was going through. At the time of writing those things, I had to make the attempt to express those feelings, even if it meant making up stories.

I don't think that the scriptures are lies, but part of them are attempts of the writers to express their emotions they are experiencing at their heart's core and that is very difficult and those attempts can often be taken out of context and completely misunderstood. For example, the prophet Mormon is attempting to convey his feelings about what is happening around him, the evilness of the Nephites and the Lamanites. In Mormon 9:9, he said "And notwithstanding this great abomination of the Lamanites, it doth not exceed that of our people in Moriantum. For behold, many of the daughters of the Lamanites have they taken prisoners; and after depriving them of that which was most dear and precious above all things, which is chastity and virtue—"

This was read in Sunday School years ago and some of the people in the class protested rather strongly that this was false doctrine. How could chastity and virtue being most dear and precious above all things. Should the daughters of the Lamanites have killed themselves before being raped.

It was at this time that I realized that maybe Mormon was going through something similar that I had gone through. The way his people had behaved had caused his almost overriding anguish and he was just trying to express that anguish through words.

Good point. I appreciate you bringing it up, and I can also relate to some degree.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-