Bill “Papa” Lee Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 (edited) "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, accepts the Bible as, the first and foremost, of her Standard Works, chief among the books which have been proclaimed, as her written guides in Faith and Doctrine". (Lecture XII, The Bible Article # 8...) The first Sunday of this Month, (March) our Bishop challenged our Ward to read the Book of Mormon, by Easter and General Conference. We can all rest assured (as members) we will hear many General Authorities, give us the same challenge, for each of us all to read, and re-read, the Book of Mormon, as well. In my 39 years as a member of, The Church, I have served at least 25-26 years as a Gospel Doctrine Instructor, the last time for, four years straight. Each time, I would always admonish my students to always read the volume of scripture that we are studying in that calendar year. Currently the entire Church is reading and teaching the Old Testament. When I was teaching, I too have even admonished members to continue to read the Book of Mormon daily, but to put more the lion share of their attention in what we are studying, as it has always been my practice of mine well. True it is, the Book of Mormon is the keystone of our Religion, but what of the foundation? You thoughts, Please Thanking you all in advance Wow, no more late night posting for me, I just had to delete most of the thread. Too much in errors, and just too much. What is left informs the narrative (I hope). Edited March 22, 2018 by Bill “Papa” Lee 4
JLHPROF Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 I will say I find the focus and emphasis placing the Book of Mormon above all other scripture concerning. That said, the Church does rotate study and reading through other scripture too. Personally I find the NT more focused on Christ and the D&C of more doctrinal benefit. The Book of Mormon provides exactly what it says - another witness, an additional testimony. But beyond that I find more to study in other scripture. And I say this as I am finishing up a reread of the Book of Mormon. 3
Tacenda Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 (edited) I am glad to finally hear someone say what I've thought all along. I hear over and over to read the Book of Mormon, not once have I ever heard that we must read the Bible, even when it's the NT or OT for that year. Thanks Pa Pa, for your OP! I'm not crazy after all, since when I've mentioned this in the past on this board I was met with comments that balked at my statements. One comment I made was when I went to a ward council meeting and at the top of the agenda, it said to read the Book of Mormon, and it was a Bible year! But since then and since my days of almost going full on Evangelical, I don't even know if I want to read either the BoM or the Bible, because half the time I don't know if I can believe in some of the scriptures. I just don't know if they always come from God since there is so much that makes God look like a God of hatred. Edited March 22, 2018 by Tacenda
snowflake Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 8 hours ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said: What I have noticed more and more, (other than myself) that despite students are asked too just read a verse only from the lesson. I never hear Bishop's, Stake Presidents, Area Authorities, few if ever ask or admonish others to read the Bible. During Priesthood this Sunday, one of our High Priests, seemed to take exception that the lesson was about, "Where would you be without the Bible". He said "...if I were stranded on a desert Island, , and could take one book, the Book of Mormon would be his choice". I quietly cautioned him to stay on point, and not entertain the plausible, and not the fantasy. But he only got more upset, and started belittling the Bible. Thankfully, I had a copy of the quote listed above. Is it just me, or are someone you in your Wards, asked the read the Bible as well? Each time I bare my testimony, I always bare witness in all of God's words, and do not just single out one. Is is this the conditions that you have noticed, be it in Church, or when feeding missionaries, or going on team-ups? How might you be observed, or treated if you stood to bare witness of the Bible as well? I see such wonder if testifiers would would include their testimony, especially if they are investigators. You thoughts, Please Atta boy Papa!, thank you for the post, great topic. Look at you, the rebel Mormon standing up for gasp....the truth of the Bible, I love it!
hope_for_things Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 10 hours ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said: "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, accepts the Bible as, the first and foremost, of her Standard Works, chief among the books which have been proclaimed, as her written guides in Faith and Doctrine". Lecture XIII The Bible Aricle # "The first Sunday of this Month, (March) our Bishop challenged our Ward to read the Book of Mormon by Easter and General Conference. We can all rest assured (as members) we will hear many General Authorities will also challenge each of us all to read, and re-read, the Book of Mormon, as well. In my 39 years as a member of "The Church", I have served at least 25-26 years as a Gospel Dictrine instructor, but not the entire number of years consecutivly. Although my last assignment was from January 1---December 31, I was able to teach all four years, it was wonderful. Each time, I always admonish my students to always read the volume of scripture that we are studying in that year. Currently the entire Church is reading and teaching the Old Testament. I have even admonished members to continue to read the Book of Mormon daily, but put more the lion share of their attention in what we are studying, as it has always been my practice of mine well. Many times in the past, I usually go out and buy a stripped down, thin version of the "King James Version Bible". I had do this often, so that I can go back and read the LDS Edition for comparison, going back and forth. Because I can no longer carry a briefcase as I did for 33 years, this is so I can have my scriptures, Ensigns and other books to teach from. My condition now makes carrying a briefcase too difficult, so I had to make some changes. I purchased a smaller satchel with a shoulder strap that cannot hold much, so now I carry a thin Bible (minus all the dictionary, topical guide, maps, and other translations). This makes for a much more thin "Bible", and a standard "Triple Combination. This way, I can fit those two combination sized books and my IPad. Then I can use the IPad to serve the needs for research material. I know it can all be done just on and iPad, but I love the tactile feeling, of having the scriptures (the books) in my hands. What I have noticed more and more, (other than myself) that despite students are asked too just read a verse only from the lesson. I never hear Bishop's, Stake Presidents, Area Authorities, few if ever ask or admonish others to read the Bible. During Priesthood this Sunday, one of our High Priests, seemed to take exception that the lesson was about, "Where would you be without the Bible". He said "...if I were stranded on a desert Island, , and could take one book, the Book of Mormon would be his choice". I quietly cautioned him to stay on point, and not entertain the plausible, and not the fantasy. But he only got more upset, and started belittling the Bible. Thankfully, I had a copy of the quote listed above. Is it just me, or are someone you in your Wards, asked the read the Bible as well? Each time I bare my testimony, I always bare witness in all of God's words, and do not just single out one. Is is this the conditions that you have noticed, be it in Church, or when feeding missionaries, or going on team-ups? How might you be observed, or treated if you stood to bare witness of the Bible as well? I see such wonder if testifiers would would include their testimony, especially if they are investigators. You thoughts, Please Thaning all in advance... One major problem I see is that Mormons aren't taught to "study" the scriptures using modern tools that are readily available, but often ignored. Historical criticism, literary criticism. Rather than actual study, we have a lot of proof texting happening. Rather than actually trying to understand what the original authors intended, we have a strong tradition of misappropriating the original intent to confirm our current biases. One quote I like, and I'm not sure where it came from originally, but its states that the purpose of the gospel is to "comfort the afflicted and to afflict the comfortable." I think too many Mormons are comfortable at church, meaning then just want to hear things to confirm their current views. If we want to grow, we need to get uncomfortable. 1
Jane_Doe Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 Historically (like even 30 years ago), we LDS folks didn't have the really work hard to convince people that the Bible is important or to read it-- it was just kind of assumed in Christian-dominated world. Now, we live in a secular-dominated world, and people frequently don't pay attention to God or any of His words at all. Hence we now have to do the work of convincing people that the Bible is important and should be read (in addition to talking about the Book of Mormon). 2
cdowis Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 (edited) The Book of Mormon was written specifically for our generation. These prophets saw our day and wrote for our specific needs. For me it gives me a prophetic insight into current events as I see fulfillment of prophecies in the BOM unfold. An excellent example is Korihor in Alma 30. I have read he Book of Mormon over 40 times, and the OT about 4 times. Edited March 22, 2018 by cdowis 3
JLHPROF Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 29 minutes ago, hope_for_things said: One major problem I see is that Mormons aren't taught to "study" the scriptures using modern tools that are readily available, but often ignored. Historical criticism, literary criticism. Rather than actual study, we have a lot of proof texting happening. Rather than actually trying to understand what the original authors intended, we have a strong tradition of misappropriating the original intent to confirm our current biases. You mean generally the membership studies the scriptures doctrinally, not academically. It's true. And there may be occasion where proof texting is the result and the original context of the writing is not taken into account. But I see just as many problems with the academic approach, not the least of which is the current "inspired fiction" theory. Or the morality myth theory. Or pretty much any excuse using academia to NOT believe or follow what is written in scripture, even when understood correctly in context. 1
hope_for_things Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 12 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: You mean generally the membership studies the scriptures doctrinally, not academically. It's true. And there may be occasion where proof texting is the result and the original context of the writing is not taken into account. But I see just as many problems with the academic approach, not the least of which is the current "inspired fiction" theory. Or the morality myth theory. Or pretty much any excuse using academia to NOT believe or follow what is written in scripture, even when understood correctly in context. I think devotional study of the scriptures certainly has some value and is part of a meaningful engagement, but if done exclusively there are significant risks involved, like confirmation bias and proof that we're in the right path and that we don't need to change anything in our lives. If academic study includes learning new information that conflicts with prior views of what scriptures are, or how God interacts with people, then this is a good thing from my perspective. It can be unsettling because Mormon culture is fearful of change, but that isn't unique to Mormonism, that is a very human response. To me, this is the call of the gospel. We can't be born again unless we die, and that death includes a death of naive religious views.
Guest Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 1 hour ago, hope_for_things said: One major problem I see is that Mormons aren't taught to "study" the scriptures using modern tools that are readily available, but often ignored. Historical criticism, literary criticism. Rather than actual study, we have a lot of proof texting happening. Rather than actually trying to understand what the original authors intended, we have a strong tradition of misappropriating the original intent to confirm our current biases. One quote I like, and I'm not sure where it came from originally, but its states that the purpose of the gospel is to "comfort the afflicted and to afflict the comfortable." I think too many Mormons are comfortable at church, meaning then just want to hear things to confirm their current views. If we want to grow, we need to get uncomfortable. You are correct, but these are not theology courses taught at BYU, but the 30-40 mins of lesson time in any given week. Not a possibility.
Guest Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, cdowis said: The Book of Mormon was written specifically for our generation. These prophets saw our day and wrote for our specific needs. For me it gives me a prophetic insight into current events as I see fulfillment of prophecies in the BOM unfold. An excellent example is Korihor in Alma 30. I have read he Book of Mormon over 40 times, and the OT about 4 times. Agreed, it does have much of the OT. Not to mention in an OT setting. Edited March 22, 2018 by Bill "Papa" Lee
hope_for_things Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 3 minutes ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said: You are correct, but these are not theology courses taught at BYU, but the 30-40 mins of lesson time in any given week. Not a possibility. With that kind of attitude, nothing will change. It can work, we just need to provide the resources and change the culture. Mormons are a highly educated group and flexible if leadership gives them permission to change, give them the tools and they will adapt.
Guest Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 11 hours ago, Tacenda said: I am glad to finally hear someone say what I've thought all along. I hear over and over to read the Book of Mormon, not once have I ever heard that we must read the Bible, even when it's the NT or OT for that year. Thanks Pa Pa, for your OP! I'm not crazy after all, since when I've mentioned this in the past on this board I was met with comments that balked at my statements. One comment I made was when I went to a ward council meeting and at the top of the agenda, it said to read the Book of Mormon, and it was a Bible year! But since then and since my days of almost going full on Evangelical, I don't even know if I want to read either the BoM or the Bible, because half the time I don't know if I can believe in some of the scriptures. I just don't know if they always come from God since there is so much that makes God look like a God of hatred. I would caution (oh and thank you, had to fix so many errors) Evangelicals, are almost worst, because they all but completely ignore half of the Bible. We devote every two years to the entire Bible. EV's devote most their entire lives to the NT, and little else. That is a Spiritually dangerous road to travel. 1
Guest Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 1 minute ago, hope_for_things said: With that kind of attitude, nothing will change. It can work, we just need to provide the resources and change the culture. Mormons are a highly educated group and flexible if leadership gives them permission to change, give them the tools and they will adapt. It is not an "attitude", it is an observation based in the space time continuum.
CV75 Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 12 hours ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said: "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, accepts the Bible as, the first and foremost, of her Standard Works, chief among the books which have been proclaimed, as her written guides in Faith and Doctrine". (Lecture XII, The Bible Article # 8...) The first Sunday of this Month, (March) our Bishop challenged our Ward to read the Book of Mormon, by Easter and General Conference. We can all rest assured (as members) we will hear many General Authorities, give us the same challenge, for each of us all to read, and re-read, the Book of Mormon, as well. In my 39 years as a member of, The Church, I have served at least 25-26 years as a Gospel Doctrine Instructor, the last time for, four years straight. Each time, I would always admonish my students to always read the volume of scripture that we are studying in that calendar year. Currently the entire Church is reading and teaching the Old Testament. When I was teaching, I too have even admonished members to continue to read the Book of Mormon daily, but to put more the lion share of their attention in what we are studying, as it has always been my practice of mine well. True it is, the Book of Mormon is the keystone of our Religion, but what of the foundation? You thoughts, Please Thanking you all in advance Wow, no more late night posting for me, I just had to delete most of the thread. Too much in errors, and just too much. What is left informs the narrative (I hope). You make a wonderful point. Joseph Smith was inspired by it enough to pray and receive the First Vision. It preserved God's truths, both Judaic and Christian, for Western humanity through the dark ages. The Book of Mormon authors counted on it, extolled its virtues and contemporary and future role, and preserved it the best they could. A 30-year old article I cam across: https://www.lds.org/ensign/1988/01/the-plates-of-brass-a-witness-of-christ?lang=eng 1
hope_for_things Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 11 minutes ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said: It is not an "attitude", it is an observation based in the space time continuum. Its a short amount of time, for sure, and I think many people would like the church to shorten the 3 hr block even further (bring on the 2 hr block!) But that doesn't mean we can't teach skills of scripture study and incorporate the best tools to accomplish it. There is no excuse for the church being stuck in a largely 19th century biblical scholarship orientation. This needs to change. 1
CV75 Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 29 minutes ago, hope_for_things said: Its a short amount of time, for sure, and I think many people would like the church to shorten the 3 hr block even further (bring on the 2 hr block!) But that doesn't mean we can't teach skills of scripture study and incorporate the best tools to accomplish it. There is no excuse for the church being stuck in a largely 19th century biblical scholarship orientation. This needs to change. Are you referring to the skills and tools referenced in these articles? "Gospel study skills: Studying the scriptures does not come naturally to most people, any more than playing the piano or painting does. Learning to study the scriptures effectively usually requires developing skills. The gospel study skills described in these learning outlines can help the youth become diligent students of the gospel. Point these skills out to the youth, and encourage them to use them as they study the gospel on their own." https://www.lds.org/youth/learn/ss/prophets-revelation/scripture?lang=eng&_r=1 https://www.lds.org/bc/content/shared/content/images/gospel-library/manual/12339/new-testament-teacher-manual_1438236_prt.pdf
JLHPROF Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 56 minutes ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said: You are correct, but these are not theology courses taught at BYU, but the 30-40 mins of lesson time in any given week. Not a possibility. 50 minutes ago, hope_for_things said: With that kind of attitude, nothing will change. It can work, we just need to provide the resources and change the culture. Mormons are a highly educated group and flexible if leadership gives them permission to change, give them the tools and they will adapt. If the repetitive topics were removed or expanded there is plenty of time. But I am not sure I would want an academic Sunday lesson (history, linguistics, philosophy, comparative religion etc). I would like a bit more substance (ok, a lot more substance) in the doctrinal and devotional lessons, but I don't think I would want to waste my sabbath on academic themes. So for me, less Church 101 rehashes, but not to be replaced with cold "objective" non-spiritual approaches.
The Nehor Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 3 hours ago, hope_for_things said: One major problem I see is that Mormons aren't taught to "study" the scriptures using modern tools that are readily available, but often ignored. Historical criticism, literary criticism. Rather than actual study, we have a lot of proof texting happening. Rather than actually trying to understand what the original authors intended, we have a strong tradition of misappropriating the original intent to confirm our current biases. One quote I like, and I'm not sure where it came from originally, but its states that the purpose of the gospel is to "comfort the afflicted and to afflict the comfortable." I think too many Mormons are comfortable at church, meaning then just want to hear things to confirm their current views. If we want to grow, we need to get uncomfortable. I do some of all of that but I find that learning with the Holy Ghost trumps them all. It will be a dark day indeed if all LDS study scripture primarily to try to discern original intent rather than letting scripture function as a conduit to revelation. 3
hope_for_things Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 42 minutes ago, CV75 said: Are you referring to the skills and tools referenced in these articles? "Gospel study skills: Studying the scriptures does not come naturally to most people, any more than playing the piano or painting does. Learning to study the scriptures effectively usually requires developing skills. The gospel study skills described in these learning outlines can help the youth become diligent students of the gospel. Point these skills out to the youth, and encourage them to use them as they study the gospel on their own." https://www.lds.org/youth/learn/ss/prophets-revelation/scripture?lang=eng&_r=1 https://www.lds.org/bc/content/shared/content/images/gospel-library/manual/12339/new-testament-teacher-manual_1438236_prt.pdf Some decent advice here, but honestly these are things we could discuss with primary aged kids. I would recommend Ben Spackman's blog, he gave a great 4 part series on OT resources and every one I've read so far has been excellent. http://www.patheos.com/blogs/benjaminthescribe/2017/11/old-testament-resources-part-1-short-list/
hope_for_things Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 40 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: If the repetitive topics were removed or expanded there is plenty of time. But I am not sure I would want an academic Sunday lesson (history, linguistics, philosophy, comparative religion etc). I would like a bit more substance (ok, a lot more substance) in the doctrinal and devotional lessons, but I don't think I would want to waste my sabbath on academic themes. So for me, less Church 101 rehashes, but not to be replaced with cold "objective" non-spiritual approaches. When you use the word "substance" what do you mean. I think history, linguistics, philosophy and comparative religious studies are very substantive. If you are talking about devotional aspects, I think a competent teach should be able to blend those elements in.
hope_for_things Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 28 minutes ago, The Nehor said: I do some of all of that but I find that learning with the Holy Ghost trumps them all. It will be a dark day indeed if all LDS study scripture primarily to try to discern original intent rather than letting scripture function as a conduit to revelation. Why would you assume that those two things are mutually exclusive? Are you suggesting that study of the mind and study of the heart can't go hand in hand? I think that's a very Mormon ideal.
Guest Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 1 hour ago, hope_for_things said: Its a short amount of time, for sure, and I think many people would like the church to shorten the 3 hr block even further (bring on the 2 hr block!) But that doesn't mean we can't teach skills of scripture study and incorporate the best tools to accomplish it. There is no excuse for the church being stuck in a largely 19th century biblical scholarship orientation. This needs to change. Currently, our Ward is having classes for those who want to attended a class entitled, "Teachings as the Savior Taught", not sure what about the content, as I teach Priesthood, and the class is taught at that time. But I fear that a two hour block would give even less time to explain the issues you listed. When I taught Gospel Doctrine, many were surprised to hear that written scripture in the OT, was passed down via "oral tradition" for generations, before ever being put into the written word. It is human nature, for each generation for narratives passed down by oral tradition to be added too, or certain things to be deleted. But, with the aid of the Holy Spirit, which of course requires both teacher and student to be able to receive it, to make that understanding enter into the lesson. My prayer of course is that all do, but that is probably wishful "hoping". When I teach, I seek out the Lord in prayer, and pray for the Holy Spirit. Also, I took two, maybe three days every week, and during my lesson prep, I would sit on the floor, and it would look like a book explosion happened all around me, due to research material.
CV75 Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 6 minutes ago, hope_for_things said: Some decent advice here, but honestly these are things we could discuss with primary aged kids. I would recommend Ben Spackman's blog, he gave a great 4 part series on OT resources and every one I've read so far has been excellent. http://www.patheos.com/blogs/benjaminthescribe/2017/11/old-testament-resources-part-1-short-list/ Resources are not skills, and skills are what you brought up in context of the 3-hour block, which the Church prioritizes for spiritual study. Have you honed these skills and apply them to all the resources you choose to use in your scripture study? Academics is another worthy pursuit, but why would you want the Church to help you build your scholarship skill, and provide academic resources, outside of its availed institutions and offerings? 2
Guest Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 15 minutes ago, hope_for_things said: Why would you assume that those two things are mutually exclusive? Are you suggesting that study of the mind and study of the heart can't go hand in hand? I think that's a very Mormon ideal. I did not grow up as a "Mormon", so I assure you, it is not a "Mormon deal", that was harsh.
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