ARP and self reliance

[Duncan]

On 3/7/2017 at 0:29 PM, bluebell said:

What's ARP?

Does your Stake not have this Addiction program? personally I just watch that "My Strange Addiction" and that gets me off of whatever is troubling me, seeing people eat lipstick or drinking oil is enough to make me quit anything

[bluebell]

8 hours ago, Duncan said:

Does your Stake not have this Addiction program? personally I just watch that "My Strange Addiction" and that gets me off of whatever is troubling me, seeing people eat lipstick or drinking oil is enough to make me quit anything

They probably do but they don't ever talk about it. 

[Duncan]

Just now, bluebell said:

They probably do but they don't ever talk about it. 

aha! They are always trying to get people to attend here! makes you almost want to eat lipstick now or something

[Rain]

8 hours ago, Duncan said:

Does your Stake not have this Addiction program? personally I just watch that "My Strange Addiction" and that gets me off of whatever is troubling me, seeing people eat lipstick or drinking oil is enough to make me quit anything

I have the booklet, but I didn't know what "ARP" was. Our stake doesn't do it, but we have a number of different meetings in the area that are for a number of stakes. Here you can get online and find a number of meetings across the valley.

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Duncan said:

aha! They are always trying to get people to attend here! makes you almost want to eat lipstick now or something

In some areas they are almost secretive about the meetings.  I've heard people in other stakes talk about how they don't give out the meeting locations or times and someone could only find out thru the bishop.  That's been a couple of years ago so maybe they've changed now, but it seemed a little weird.  

[dberrie2000]

12 minutes ago, bluebell said:

In some areas they are almost secretive about the meetings.  I've heard people in other stakes talk about how they don't give out the meeting locations or times and someone could only find out thru the bishop.  That's been a couple of years ago so maybe they've changed now, but it seemed a little weird.  

Hi Bluebell:

In our ward--the ARP time, date, and location is printed in the ward bulletin. We attempt to keep the meeting as confidential as possible, and the Stake agreed to not have any meetings during that time period, although we learned that is not always the case, as to all stakes.

It is a close group, which draws together, and supports one another--but only in a small setting. Since the program surrounds around the Atonement of Jesus Christ--there were a number of people who attended who did not necessarily have an addiction, but needed help healing from some event which occurred in their lives.

[Duncan]

Just now, bluebell said:

In some areas they are almost secretive about the meetings.  I've heard people in other stakes talk about how they don't give out the meeting locations or times and someone could only find out thru the bishop.  That's been a couple of years ago so maybe they've changed now, but it seemed a little weird.  

that's odd! the times, meeting place, various instructions are in the Stake Directory hahaha!

[rpn]

21 hours ago, Calm said:

Rpn, do you need more references for "breaking the Word of Wisdom" being a sin and needing repentance?

Of course the word of wisdom has become a commandment in the 20th century, and a TR component.    And I would not dispute that those who have been baptized  have committed to living it.

But that doesn't make it a sin to violate it.    Yes, church members have historically identified it as the worst sin a member can commit (not so much the last 20 years or so).  But all the quotes in the lesson manuals notwithstanding, and all the can't get baptized until you commit to living it, and all the I'm pulling your TR because you are struggling with it, does not make it inherently a sin.    The handbook lists it as one of those failures to live Church standards.   We came to earth to get the body we needed to become like God and learn how to control its parts, appetites and passions in submission to His will.  Failure to live the word of wisdom means failure to have fully learned to do so.   Failure to live it may undermine our agency.    Choosing to violate the word of wisdom that we have promised to live could be a sin, surely.    Often word of wisdom issues aren't though just about exercising personal choice.   I still say that the Handbook I quoted supports that the Church does not consider word of wisdom violations as sin.    The handbook explicitly labels it among a group of actions that are "Failures to live up to standards"

But I also know that bishops who may never have read that section or bishops whose stake presidents who think violations are sins may be doing "informal discipline", I just don't see how they have any authority to do that, just because bishops have done it for a long time, including before that section got into the manual.    I'd be hoping bishops would be looking for ways to teach why living the word of wisdom matters, and supporting ARP and any other efforts to meet the standards, and not doing anything that seems the least bit punishment.   (I don't see pulling a TR as disciplinary as if you cannot meet the standards to hold one, then you shouldn't be using it, I have had several bishops who encouraged members struggling with word of wisdom issues to increase their temple attendance, instead though.)  FTR-- I don't have any Word of Wisdom issues personally.  This  isn't about justifying my personal issues or those of anyone I know.

[Calm]

12 hours ago, Duncan said:

that's odd! the times, meeting place, various instructions are in the Stake Directory hahaha!

Maybe Canadians are too polite to go to the meetings just out of curiosity.

[Duncan]

Just now, Calm said:

Maybe Canadians are too polite to go to the meetings just out of curiosity.

they have to entice us with Fruit Explosions from Timmie's

[Bernard Gui]

20 hours ago, rpn said:

Of course the word of wisdom has become a commandment in the 20th century, and a TR component.    And I would not dispute that those who have been baptized  have committed to living it.

But that doesn't make it a sin to violate it.    Yes, church members have historically identified it as the worst sin a member can commit (not so much the last 20 years or so).  But all the quotes in the lesson manuals notwithstanding, and all the can't get baptized until you commit to living it, and all the I'm pulling your TR because you are struggling with it, does not make it inherently a sin.    The handbook lists it as one of those failures to live Church standards.   We came to earth to get the body we needed to become like God and learn how to control its parts, appetites and passions in submission to His will.  Failure to live the word of wisdom means failure to have fully learned to do so.   Failure to live it may undermine our agency.    Choosing to violate the word of wisdom that we have promised to live could be a sin, surely.    Often word of wisdom issues aren't though just about exercising personal choice.   I still say that the Handbook I quoted supports that the Church does not consider word of wisdom violations as sin.    The handbook explicitly labels it among a group of actions that are "Failures to live up to standards"

But I also know that bishops who may never have read that section or bishops whose stake presidents who think violations are sins may be doing "informal discipline", I just don't see how they have any authority to do that, just because bishops have done it for a long time, including before that section got into the manual.    I'd be hoping bishops would be looking for ways to teach why living the word of wisdom matters, and supporting ARP and any other efforts to meet the standards, and not doing anything that seems the least bit punishment.   (I don't see pulling a TR as disciplinary as if you cannot meet the standards to hold one, then you shouldn't be using it, I have had several bishops who encouraged members struggling with word of wisdom issues to increase their temple attendance, instead though.)  FTR-- I don't have any Word of Wisdom issues personally.  This  isn't about justifying my personal issues or those of anyone I know.

Sister Gui and I are LDS ARP family support group leaders. I also serve as our stake Family Services coordinator. Our meetings are anything but secret. We advertise them with brochures in church lobbies and announcements in ward bulletins. We regularly give presentations in ward RS and Priesthood meetings. 

Meeting locations all over the world are listed here....

https://addictionrecovery.lds.org/find-a-meeting?lang=eng

There is a sea change going on in the Church regarding mental health, addiction, and the recovery process. Where it used to be seen as a moral or spiritual weakness, lack of self-control, disobedience, etc., it is now being approached as a sickness that can be treated with a combination of spiritual and professional counseling, medical treatment, and divine intervention.

Many people in addiction and their loved ones are embarrassed and ashamed for it to become known. Some feel uncomfortable attending a meeting in a building where people might recognize them, so they can go to any meeting that is within a reasonable travel distance. Meetings are confidential and anonymous. We do not report the names of attendees to anyone. We try to hold them in rooms that have a separate outside entry door. Our personal experience, and one that we have observed in many others, is that as we gain healing we are more open and less concerned about others knowing our plight. Some of us even become evangelists for the program and group meetings.

Our group meetings are consistently among the most spiritual and rewarding we have ever attended. They are where the Atonement becomes real. While the Family Support Group materials are not as comprehensive and robust as those for the Addiction Groups, they are a welcomed lifeline for those whose life has been thrown into chaos by addiction.

I do not hesitate to urge anyone who is in addiction or has a loved one in addiction to join. Give it 90 days. If you don't like it, we will refund your misery.

Edited March 10, 2017 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

On March 9, 2017 at 7:51 AM, bluebell said:

In some areas they are almost secretive about the meetings.  I've heard people in other stakes talk about how they don't give out the meeting locations or times and someone could only find out thru the bishop.  That's been a couple of years ago so maybe they've changed now, but it seemed a little weird.  

From what I have experienced, the trend is toward openness. There are some leaders who hold to the old attitudes about addiction, but they are becoming fewer and fewer. We are usually able to win them over in training meetings and as they experience the difficulties they face when trying to help members in addiction.

More recently the Church has recognized the problems of codependency and is addressing them with support groups and materials. IMO there needs to be some improvement there, but it is well underway.

[HappyJackWagon]

On ‎3‎/‎7‎/‎2017 at 0:17 PM, Duncan said:

I may have brought this up before but let's say you sometimes smoke or socially drink or have a mild addiction to cucumber salad. So would you need to see the Bishop first and then he tells you to go a counsellor or ARP, but if that's the case can't you skip the Bishop and just go to ARP? what benefit would there be to see a Bishop? as I see it these things don't really affect your standing in the Church-it's not like your a raging alcoholic or into drugs or eat at Applebees for their conveniently priced lunch specials on wed.

One of the 12 steps in ARP (or the AA 12 steps) is "confession." So while it is certainly possible for someone to attend ARP and work the program without going to the bishop, at some point the individual working the program will seek out a trusted person like a bishop to confess.

ARP specifically has a goal to help those recovering from addiction or any "character weakness". We all have character weaknesses, no matter how holy we try to be. Within that context ARP is for everyone and is basically an in depth 12 step repentance program.

[Kenngo1969]

1 hour ago, HappyJackWagon said:

One of the 12 steps in ARP (or the AA 12 steps) is "confession." So while it is certainly possible for someone to attend ARP and work the program without going to the bishop, at some point the individual working the program will seek out a trusted person like a bishop to confess. ...

By no means am I anti-confession, even as that particular process is practiced in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  Lord knows, I've availed myself of that process more than I'd care to admit .  If the Spirit tells one that the best course of action would be for him to confess a particular sin to his bishop, he ought to avail himself of that opportunity, posthaste.  However, confession to an ecclesiastical authority is not necessarily the sort of confession contemplated by The Twelve Steps/the various Anonymous Programs/and even ARP, as the third program is based on the second.  While confession to ecclesiastical authority may be a relatively rare phenomenon when compared to confession generally (e.g., between a wronged party and the person who wronged him), the second sort of confession is, I think, what ARP/Twelve-Step has in mind when speaking of the process.

In that spirit (and in all seriousness), HappyJackWagon, I know we've had our disagreements.  I hope that I, in my forthrightness and frankness in the course of airing such disagreements, have not been guilty of incivility or of giving you the mistaken impression that any disagreement I might have with you is personal.  It is not.  I would like to take this opportunity to apologize if I have ever given you the mistaken impression to the contrary.  I wish you well.  

[Kenngo1969]

On ‎3‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 9:21 AM, Bernard Gui said:

Sister Gui and I are LDS ARP family support group leaders. I also serve as our stake Family Services coordinator. Our meetings are anything but secret. We advertise them with brochures in church lobbies and announcements in ward bulletins. We regularly give presentations in ward RS and Priesthood meetings. 

Meeting locations all over the world are listed here....

https://addictionrecovery.lds.org/find-a-meeting?lang=eng

There is a sea change going on in the Church regarding mental health, addiction, and the recovery process. Where it used to be seen as a moral or spiritual weakness, lack of self-control, disobedience, etc., it is now being approached as a sickness that can be treated with a combination of spiritual and professional counseling, medical treatment, and divine intervention.

Many people in addiction and their loved ones are embarrassed and ashamed for it to become known. Some feel uncomfortable attending a meeting in a building where people might recognize them, so they can go to any meeting that is within a reasonable travel distance. Meetings are confidential and anonymous. We do not report the names of attendees to anyone. We try to hold them in rooms that have a separate outside entry door. Our personal experience, and one that we have observed in many others, is that as we gain healing we are more open and less concerned about others knowing our plight. Some of us even become evangelists for the program and group meetings.

Our group meetings are consistently among the most spiritual and rewarding we have ever attended. They are where the Atonement becomes real. [Emphasis added by Kenngo1969.]  While the Family Support Group materials are not as comprehensive and robust as those for the Addiction Groups, they are a welcomed lifeline for those whose life has been thrown into chaos by addiction.

I do not hesitate to urge anyone who is in addiction or has a loved one in addiction to join. Give it 90 days. If you don't like it, we will refund your misery.

Requoted, because that thar post deserves many more than the mere three rep points it has gotten so far.  As I believe I said earlier in the thread, an acquaintance of mine who is familiar with the program said it should be called How to Repent.  From what (admittedly little) exposure I've had to the program, that's exactly right.  

[HappyJackWagon]

19 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

By no means am I anti-confession, even as that particular process is practiced in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  Lord knows, I've availed myself of that process more than I'd care to admit .  If the Spirit tells one that the best course of action would be for him to confess a particular sin to his bishop, he ought to avail himself of that opportunity, posthaste.  However, confession to an ecclesiastical authority is not necessarily the sort of confession contemplated by The Twelve Steps/the various Anonymous Programs/and even ARP, as the third program is based on the second.  While confession to ecclesiastical authority may be a relatively rare phenomenon when compared to confession generally (e.g., between a wronged party and the person who wronged him), the second sort of confession is, I think, what ARP/Twelve-Step has in mind when speaking of the process.

In that spirit (and in all seriousness), HappyJackWagon, I know we've had our disagreements.  I hope that I, in my forthrightness and frankness in the course of airing such disagreements, have not been guilty of incivility or of giving you the mistaken impression that any disagreement I might have with you is personal.  It is not.  I would like to take this opportunity to apologize if I have ever given you the mistaken impression to the contrary.  I wish you well.  

I think Step 5- Confession in the ARP program is about more than just confession to a priesthood leader BUT confession to the ecclesiastical authority is definitely a significant part of it. Here are a few excerpts from the ARP manual-

Quote

Confession also involved seeking forgiveness from the Lord through prayer and through any necessary priesthood channels.

This disclosure to proper priesthood authority was an essential part of recovery and healing.

The “duty of all persons [is] to confess all their sins to the Lord” (Bible Dictionary, “Confession,” 649). More serious transgressions must be confessed to proper priesthood leaders, usually the bishop:

https://addictionrecovery.lds.org/steps/5?lang=eng

PS- nice confession  

[rongo]

24 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I think Step 5- Confession in the ARP program is about more than just confession to a priesthood leader BUT confession to the ecclesiastical authority is definitely a significant part of it.

I've had people working through the steps call me wanting to confess and clear the air from something that happened years ago --- and I was completely unaware of. These weren't people struggling with porn (one of them was going to ARP because of anger issues). In each case, I told them that a) I was completely unaware of the hard feelings or harsh things said about me, and b) that it was all right and that there were no hard feelings on my part. And c) that I admired their courage in wanting to leave no stones unturned.

The principle of confession here isn't just regarding things related to the actual thing being worked on --- but rather, any and all things that bother the person and which they feel need to be resolved with others.  

[HappyJackWagon]

9 minutes ago, rongo said:

I've had people working through the steps call me wanting to confess and clear the air from something that happened years ago --- and I was completely unaware of. These weren't people struggling with porn (one of them was going to ARP because of anger issues). In each case, I told them that a) I was completely unaware of the hard feelings or harsh things said about me, and b) that it was all right and that there were no hard feelings on my part. And c) that I admired their courage in wanting to leave no stones unturned.

The principle of confession here isn't just regarding things related to the actual thing being worked on --- but rather, any and all things that bother the person and which they feel need to be resolved with others.  

True. Confession provides an opportunity for a person to humble themselves by admitting their wrongs to a person they have harmed, and then to unburden themselves of the weight of that guilt so they can be free of it.